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ZD: Your rationale for not being makpid on Kashrus is to promote interunit unity?!
2. A frum American in the IDf was told that the afikomen at the basis seder was a roll. He believed it (in fact, seders are conducted by IDF rabbanim – in this case it would the rav of the base and bringing chametz or non-kosher food all during the year is an offense which is punished by 21 days in the stockade or confinement to the base).
But don’t you think it’s sad that the attitude the secular Israeli government give over is one that causes people to think it’s not a joke?
Many boys stop being Frum learning in yeshiva. Does that mean learning in yeshiva should be banned as well?
Becoming irreligious can happen anywhere. Certain experiences are causes for people to come irreligious. Those who go off the derech in Yeshivas are certainly not of because the place or experience. The army, however, is a place full of מכשולים. I shudder to think how blind you have to be to consider this comparison rational.
I don’t know why posters are grasping at straws about the army. Isn’t it blindingly obvious that it is detrimental to your Avoidas Hashem to be in the Israeli Defence Forces? Can anyone say with a straight face that they think it will be a positive influence on their Avoidas Hashem?
The following are not your average Jewish hits:
Ahron Razel
Zusha
Ben Zion Solomon & Sons
Eli Shwebel
YoodOf course, I could totally agree with what you are saying, and just be arguing to defend the opposing point. If so, I may be totally disproving your point, which would invalidate my position too. So if I do agree with you and my possibly-attempted counterattack works, I would be confusing myself thoroughly – If You and I both think that it is impossible to argue something you don’t believe in, and I successfully convince you that it is possible to argue something I don’t believe in, I have then argued something I don’t believe in, thereby disproving my point. In which case I suppose I would believe that it is possible, causing that I argued for something I did hold of, which makes me lose any legitimate source to my claim that it is possible.
Oh, I don’t know…
I have had the same questions, LU. I don’t know how far to extend this reservation of the Rav. I don’t think he meant any irreligious Jew. I think it was said directly about the Israeli Government and any representatives thereof. (No, the Health Minister does not fit into the category, in case anybody was wondering).
So it seems that before I managed to post my clarification, NetiquamErro and LU correctly (and may I say it, more eloquently) pointed out the flaws with “arguing the other side”. Although I agree (see above), I think that NE is incorrect.
Furthermore, even were that not the case, it is virtually impossible to be truly convincing when simply pretending to believe as you do. It’s one thing to defend a position that matters to you. Your brain is fully employed in trying to find the gaps in the oppositions defenses and the inherent truth and logic in your own. But when your only aim is to argue against yourself, you’re simply not going to do a good job, no matter how hard you try. The lack of emotional investment means that your bound to be destroyed in a reasonable discussion by anybody that actually believes in what they’re saying, even an intellectual inferior.
Although from a moral standpoint you were correct, I must disagree with this point of yours. I can tell you with confidence that I have done the very thing you have proclaimed impossible, and have successfully persuaded opponents against arguments they were very emotionally attached to, although I fully supported their position the whole way along. In fact, I was successful enough that when I told them I was actually “on their team”, I had to re-argue their position while they took up my points, and I had to refute them one by one. And I wasn’t arguing with an idiot either.
What you say about emotional investment – if you enjoy the challenge enough, you can be emotionally invested in the argument you don’t believe, albeit a superficial attachment.
One place where I used this tactic (perhaps where i developed this tactic) constructively and not just for entertainment is in the Beis Hamedrash. When discussing a sugya, people often have preconceived notions and unjustified assumptions (generally called הנחות) or sometimes have come out with a “mehalech”, and although they may be correct in their assumptions/mehalech, they may have the wrong reasons to prove it. There is a big toieles to play the “devils advocate”, להגדיל תורה ולהאדירה. In this case, ביקוש האמת obligates you to try get out of any unnecessary assumptions which you may have picked up along the route without legitimate reason. When a chavrusa of mine will say something, I will automatically (subconciously) take on the opposite position, not in a offensive fashion but in a defensive fashion. This is not being מגלה פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה, this is לימוד התורה.
I’m sure there is, but no one listens to me
What makes you sure there is? חטא כדי שיזכה חברך?
Or would it just be considered לתועלת in that case?
Seems like the “Awaiting moderation” display has been taken away.
MisterYudi: I always had a funny feeling when they had “The Big Debate” in camp, and what you’ve said helped me understand why.
If arguing is an intellectual exercise (and the cases I referred to “In real life” where I could take both sides), then a good orator should be able to argue both sides of the coin. When the purpose of the argument is just to get your brain ticking, and because you enjoy the banter of a good ol’ chinwag, then I understand your challenge.
If, however, you are arguing about right and wrong, there shouldn’t be two sides to the coin. There is one objective truth, and you just have to look carefully and find it. It isn’t a Pros v. Cons; there is no weighing up. There is one Emes. Being able to pinpoint the emes in a moral dilemma is a skill to be treasured.
If Bikush haEmes is the purpose of the discussion, you shouldn’t want to or be able to see the other side. Once you have determined what you feel is the Rotzon Hashem, arguing the other side should not come naturally at all; I would feel an idiot trying to explain the other tzad.
The “few topics currently on the front page” are not the type of thing I feel it constructive to attempt arguing the other tzad.
#CRDSYAC
DaMoshe: Interesting! Why should that be? Is a desktop browser not more powerful than a mobile browser?
@MW13:However, if I was living in Israel, I would have to decide between two very different options:
1) report to the draft office, receive a deferment, and go back to learning; or
2) go protest in the streets.Just out of curiosity, how would you go about making that decision?
I’ve never actually thought about it; to me, it’s always been an issue of not getting involved when Gedolim are fighting.
What would I actually do? I would ask my Rav shlit”a and my Rosh Yeshiva shlit”a, and follow their advice. I’m quite positive they would tell me to report and receive a deferment.
Option 2, which is “Go protest in the streets”, is something my Rebbes are extremely against – not necessarily because of the anti-violence sentiments expressed above, but for a totally different reason.
The Brisker Rav famously said that the Zionists are חשוד על רציחה. By extension, going to a public demonstration and declaring yourself an Anti-Zionist is Assur because of Pikuach Nefesh. You may think this is taking it a little far? Let me tell you a story. I heard this from R’ Zelig Weinberg shlit”a who heard it from Dayan Grossnass, who heard it from R’ Boruch Be’er Lebovitz direct (I can’t remember if Dayan Grossnass witnessed it or if he heard it from R’ B”B):
R’ Boruch Be’er was by a function, where they began singing Hatikva. All rose to pay tribute to the wonderful State. R’ Boruch Be’er also rose, and then sat down in the middle. They asked him why he stood up at all. He replied that although he obviously didn’t hold of the Zionist regime and would not rise to respect them, he stood up in accordance with the Brisker Rav – if they are חשוד על רציחה, then making a מחאה would be considered סכנת נפשות. He therefore stood up.
The reason he subsequently sat down is because he remembered something R’ Chaim had told him: HaTikva (and the Zionist ideology it represents) is אבוזרייהו דעבודה זרה. Accordingly, standing for it would be considered יהרוג ואל יעבור, and R’ Boruch Be’er was willing to place himself into Sakanah rather than show support.
(The Rosh Yeshiva of Gateshead – R’ Avrohom Gurvitz shlit”a – told me that he was by a dinner in Newcastle when the band began playing Hatikva, and the Gateshead Kollel representatives were unsure of whether to show their contempt or not. They asked R’ Dessler zt”l, who was sitting there, and he told them that because it was only the tune and not the words, they didn’t need to actively make a מחאה.)
Unfortunately, I am self admitted not on the level to be a proper מקבל from my Rebbes; I don’t feel a פחד מות when I walk past a Zionist policeman. My limited intellect does not fully understand the psak of the Brisker Rav. But a nevertheless try my best to follow the psak.
I have seen firsthand those who do take the Brisker Rav literally. My Yeshiva is right by Kikar Shabbos, and when there was a large [peaceful] demonstration on Shabbos afternoon, the police marched right past the yeshiva. I saw one of the Brisker Rav’s grandchildren leaving yeshiva, and when he saw the police, he grabbed his children and ran in the other direction, with an expression of pure panic on his face.
Yekke, is reporting what a gadol says (leaving aside the question of who is a gadol)lashon hara as regards those who have difficulties with the statements/follow other gedolim?
[I don’t profess to know Hilchos Loshon Horo properly, but my answer would be:] No, it’s not Loshon Horo. Like it is not ma’aras ayin to do something halachically permissible just because others who don’t know Halacha think it is assur. As long as it is presented without any additions which display negative opinions of the reporter. If you say it in a way that shows your contempt, that is loshon horo. Not because of the information repeated, but because of the opinion conveyed.
I deliberately didn’t really read the other thread
Is there no heter for the Mashgichah to read just to see if it needs shutting down?
What a fantastic idea.
In real life, I always found it disturbing at the ease I had to fight both sides of the debate. I could persuade many people the side of the argument I felt was woefully wrong, and proceed afterwards to refute my own arguments.
For some reason, I can’t do this online. Definitely not in this thread; it’s too obvious. Maybe I’ll try do this on another thread, where nobody will notice. I wonder how successful I’ll be?
but before we speak against gedolim we sholud know exactly what they say
We should not speak against Gedoilim, period. You definitely shouldn’t if you don’t know what they say, but you may not talk against a Godol ever.
The דין of a מכחיש מגידיה is מורידין ולא מעלין. Be careful.
Even though R’ Chaim shlita says that women don’t have to be careful about things that cause forgetfulness, I wonder if this is different since the reason it’s a problem might be because it’s disrespectful to the Sefer (and not just because it causes forgetfulness). If that’s the case, presumably, it would be a problem for women as well.
One hundred percent. I never meant to say that women shouldn’t be careful; this is a halachah besides for the issue that it causes forgetfulness. I prefaced by bringing the Halachah from the Gemara/Yerushalmi; the source that it causes forgetfulness is a separate thing entirely. R’ Chaim was talking about things which are halachicaly permitted.
I also wonder if the fact that women don’t HAVE to be careful about these things because they don’t have a chiyuv of Talmud Torah means that they don’t forget their learning if they do these things or do they still forget their learning but it’s not assur for them to do so?
I had the same safek as you, and I came out with the same maskanah. If it would cause forgetfulness, I find it very strange that R’ Chaim would say “פשוט שאין צריך ליזהר”; it is certainly עצה טובה not to do it. I imagine that it doesn’t cause forgetfulness at all.
It is interesting, though – why should the fact that they are not mechuyav in Limud Toirah be a cause you shouldn’t forget? I don’t really see the svarah…
Often threads aren’t closed because they contain Loshon Horo, but because they inspire Loshon Horo and that most of the posts being moderated and deleted are Loshon Horo.
DY: Can’t think of a better way to bring out that point! Well done.
E.I. Nickelye?
There is a spelling mistake on the title of the “New Topic” page – it says “Home › Coffeeroom › New Cofeeroom Topic”.
Not that it should bother anyone, but I suppose it counts as a bug.
Lilmod Ulelamed: R’ Chaim Kanievsky writes in Sefer Zikaron:ונראה פשוט בנשים א״צ ליזהר בכל אלו
The Halacha is brought in שו”ע יו”ד סי’ רע”ז by the ש”ך, who brings the source from either a Yerushalmi Megilla or the Gemara Eiruvin 98a.
The source that contravening this Halacha causes forgetfulness in learning is from “חכמי האמת”, that a Malach called שומר דפין is appointed to cause those who leave a sefer open to forget their learning.
This is the לשון of the ש”ך:
כתב הב״ח דמירושלמי דמגילה יש ללמוד שלא ילך אדס לחוץ ויניח הספר פתוח אס אין עליו מפה דלאו דוקא ס״ת דה״ה שאר ספריס עכ״ל ולא היה צריך ללמוד כן מהירושלמי דהכי מוכח נמי מש״ס דילן בעירובין במשנה וש״ס שס )דף צ״ח ע״א( ע״ש וידוע לחכמי האמת שיש מלאך א׳ נקרא ש״ד והוא ״שומר דפין״ על מי שמניח ספר פתוח ויוצא שמשכח תלמודו:
apushatayid:
Does their action conform to Hashems will?
Use of violence לאפרושי מאיסורא needs clear guidance from a Posek.
@TheRealStory: A bit aggressive, but good point nonetheless (referring to your first post, about Daas Balabatim).
Interestingly enough, I read in one of the biographies of R’ Chaim Solovetchik zt”l that he when he finished a shtickel Torah, he would walk over to the first Baal Haboss he met in Shul and tell him over the Yesoid. If the Ba’al Habos wouldn’t understand it the first time, R’ Chaim would discard the vort because it wasn’t glatt. He had an interesting rationale to his ‘experiment’, which I can’t remember accurately. I’ll try look it up if I have a chance.
Hitting out at a passing woman whose dress mode does not conform to your own
Nobody is hitting women whose dress mode doesn’t conform to their own. They are hitting women whose dress mode doesn’t conform to Hashems. And that is all the difference.
I am not advocating violence. Use of violence לאפרושי מאיסורא needs clear guidance from a Posek, especially when circumstances involve the media and national law. Whatever my opinions are on the subject, I would certainly not be so presumptuous and egotistical as to argue with a Gadol Hador who paskens either way in such a shaila. And if I was to develop an opinion, I would try be as careful as I could to ensure that my position should be in accordance to Torah values, not influenced by my emotions or morals that may have invaded my mind from external Western sources.
@yichusdik: In relation to what you were saying, R’ Akiva Eiger has a beautiful vort about individuality in Avoidas Hashem, and it emphasizes your point.
עתיד הקדוש ברוך הוא לעשות מחול לצדיקים והוא יושב ביניהם בגן עדן וכל אחד ואחד מראה באצבעו שנאמר ‘ואמר ביום ההוא הנה אלקינו זה קוינו לו ויושיענו זה ה׳ קוינו לו נגילה ונשמחה בישועתו
“In the furure, HKB”H will make a circle of Tzaddikim and He will sit between them in Gan Eden, and each of them will point with his finger and say “This is our G-d…””
R’ Akiva Eiger explains the significance of the circle. All the tzaddikim will stand in a circle, and HKB”H will be standing (כביכול) in the center. He points out that although they are each standing in very different places, and one side of the circle may be very far from the other side, all points in the circle are equidistant to the centre. And although now we cannot see it, לעתיד לבא we will see that they are all pointing to the centre, saying that “This is our G-d”; they all mean לשם שמים.
I don’t know Hilchos Loshon Horo, but I’m not convinced it is L’toeles at all. (I don’t know what Trade24 is either; are they a Jewish company?)
It may be l’toeles for you to know the information and for others to tell you, but I’m not convinced anyone is allowed to broadcast negative information over a public medium where most of the readers have NO toeles.
Streetgeek: Can I try answer you without getting stuck in the technicalities of the Zionism Debate? Let’s talk on a general level.
The attitude of “live and let live” is not a Frum attitude. You are correct that you must respect somebody who disagrees with you on the “Chicken V. Shnitzel” debate, or on the “Rosenblatt v. Koussevitzky” issue. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, and to hate somebody because a preference of his is assur.
“Beliefs”, however, are not a matter of choice. The Torah tells us how to think and act, and our job is to clarify the Torah’s position and act accordingly. And if there are those who act AGAINST the Torah, especially those who are deliberately Anti-Torah, they are evil.
We say every Friday night: “אהבי ה’ שנאו רע. Those who love Hashem despise Wickedness.” This isn’t “שנאת חנם”, this is Sinah with a very positive reason. R’ Meir and Bruria famously disagreed whether to hate the Sin or the Sinners (יתמו חטאים\חוטאים מן הארץ), but both are in agreement that our world is not an egalitarian society where beliefs are a matter of choice. “Acceptance” is the one thing we do not have; we shun and reject falsehood and atheism and anti-Torah beliefs with all of our might.
Seeing people who are not observant should hurt. If somebody would publicly abuse your father, hit him and spit and degrade him, would you be able to just walk past, or would you feel emotionally involved and hurt? Every person who sins is minimizing Kovod Shamayim; is a terrible black stain in the world. It is sad when we sink to the depths that we allow others to sin; that we are so low that we maintain casual indifference to רע. We must do everything we can to promote Kiyum Torah UMizvos, and with that, Kovod Shamayim. And we must do everything we can to protect our sensitivities, that we don’t become numb to Aveiros and Kofrim.
The point of protesting is two fold:
A) “When you are hurt, you cry out”. Regardless of whether or not there is anything constructive to gain by protesting [which there generally is], protesting shows the voice of truth is still fighting. It means not bowing to the Haman by keeping a straight back. Imagine your parents, or you son, was locked up for keeping Shabbos. Would you do everything in your power to release him, and to ensure that others are able to continue keeping Shabbos?
B) It helps us. When you see a Jew doing an Aveirah with casual indifference, it is mashpiah on you. It makes sin more accessible, more real, and less terrible each time. It’s a natural phenomenon. Every time I see a Yid being Moicheh for Kovod Shabbos – shaking his fist at a car driving through the streets, or shouting “SHABBOS!” at the top of his lungs, it guards me from allowing the sight of a casual sinner from ruining my sensitivity to חטא. When hundreds of Yidden march up the roads with all their children, clad in their shabbos finery, singing “Yismechu Bemalchusecha” – it may mean nothing to the Mechallelei Shabbos, but it sure inspires courage, resistance in the Shoimrei Torah.
NeutiquamErro: You’re going to have to be more specific to persuade me, I’m afraid. And I didn’t say Gateshead is boring, I was focusing more on the fact that it could be claustrophobic and stifling for those who need more space for expression. There aren’t many kosher outlets (unless I missed a lot during my 4 years there).
NetiquamErro – Here’s a chance to shine at British Politics… The stage is yours!
NeutiquamErro: I don’t know if you are right about Gateshead being the perfect place for virtually any bochur. It certainly is an incredible place for those motivated and willing to immerse themselves fully in the ים של תורה. There are a fantastic amount of Bnei Torah and choshuve Yungerleit, dozens of mosdos spread over four streets, and is a place where a Yeshiva Bochur can sit and learn without any distractions.
To be perfectly honest, for those interested in anything other than pure, undiluted, Torah, there isn’t much in Gateshead. You can’t even buy supper on the nights that there are weddings in town; the only deli takeaway uses the kitchen of the Bewick Centre, which doubles as the Chasuna Hall, Computer Suite and Football/Basketball pitch.
Not everyone can/is willing to squash themselves into the system; there are those who need outlets, who need the very distractions that Gateshead exists to circumvent. They need the freedom you can’t find in a neighborhood so small, and the space which Gateshead certainly doesn’t provide. (And the relatively few outlets in Gateshead/Newcastle are less than Kosher.)
Have you looked into Yeshivas Toras Chaim? Sounds about right.
It certainly sounds nice. How I wish it were true.
To argue with you would involve leveling accusations and statements against people and sects that would be assur for me to make, and would certainly antagonize many who would read it. So I’m not going to argue with you.
The issue I will bring up – without any names and addresses – is about those who act within the parameters of Torah and Mitzvos, yet do not fit with your admirable moshol. In your moshol, all are heading towards the same destination and are travelling along the same route. There is no necessity for the ships to be the same. On that we say כשם שאין פרצופיהם דומין כך אין דיעותיהן דומין זל”ז.
There are two types of people who I take issue with, and neither of them fit your description.
(A) There are those who are travelling towards the same destination, but who take a different route. This isn’t a difference in the ship, it is a difference in the journey. If the Torah prescribes a specific route, then you can be heading to the same destination and still be wrong. Although these people generally mean well, they can still be wrong.
(B) The people who live within the parameters of Halacha, but are not heading towards the same destination at all. These are people whose ships are heading in the opposite direction, and often the Torah and Mitzvos are “things that come upon us on the way”. They may be travelling the same seas and may look like the same ship, but there is a difference in destination.Forgive me for going one step closer towards being explicit – people in Category B arise when they don’t follow your other desciption: I think that we are the products of their hashpo’oh, and of any other hashpo’os our parents saw fit to expose us to. I think that with those influences, with the guidance of a manhig or manhigim that the individual trusts, and the immersion of living in a Jewish environment. It’s when people expose themselves or their children to hashpo’os their parents didn’t see fit to expose them to, and immerse themselves in anything other than a Jewish environment.
Halacha dictates the parameters of “Dos and Donts”. If you contravene Halachah on a regular basis, then you are not observant. It is matter of hashkafa, however, to decide what is the destination and what route to take towards that destination.
Golfer – Just a small pedantic point: Although both actions are prohibited, there is a world of difference between assaulting a human and causing pain to an animal. Don’t insult humans by putting them together.