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But not allowing him to see his children at all?
Who thinks up these things?
My parents divorced when I was nine. At the time, we were not frum. Shortly after they separated, my mother became frum and my sister and I joined her.
My mother tried to find a yeshiva for me to attend. For two years, I attended Ohel Moshe, in Bensonhurst, a school that catered largely to Russian immigrants. There were a handful of frum students there, butthe vast majority of the school was not. After two years, she tried to get me into a more mainstream yeshiva.
One well-known prominent yeshiva told her that they’d be willing to take me, provided that I have absolutely no contact with my (still not-frum) father. Even having no other options, she turned them down flat.
The irony of it all is that not too long after that, I ended up estranged from my father for about three years anyway. We eventually reconciled when he remarried and we have a very good relationship now. But that separation (and the ability to especially now, as a father, look back on it and understand it how it affected me as a child and him as a father) gave me a much better understanding of what that yeshiva demanded of my mother.
It’s probably a good thing that I don’t know the name of the administrator that my mother met with that day. It’s bad enough that I robbed myself (and my father) of three years of our relationship. For a yeshiva to demand that, as a condition of attendance, we cut ourselves off from him for six years (the amount of time I had left in school) plus however many years afterwards (who says we would have reconciled after that long?) for the rest of our lives, is simply monstrous.
We’re not talking about a man who beat or abused his kids. We’re not even talking about a man who would deliberately force his kids to violate halacha against their will. He was just a man who grew up in a non-observant home and continued in that as an adult. But, apparently, they felt that he would be so corrupting, so polluting of his childrens’ souls, that it would be better to cut off the relationship and sever a man from his children. How horrible is it to suggest that a man is so harmful to his kids that he shouldn’t have any contact at all? When I think about it as a father, the very idea makes me both sad and angry.
My sister and I are both shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos today. We both raised families where Yiddishkeit is important and central, and we did it while maintaining a healthy relationship with our father. I’m normally the sort of person who avoids “I told you sos,” but I would *love* to be able to go back to this administrator and show him just how wrong he was.
The Wolf
i agree shidduchim shouldnt be treated as a “business deal”.
Then I suppose you don’t people who do shadchanus for a living.
Look, I didn’t have a shadchan. I met Eees on my own. But if that wasn’t an option and I had to obtain the services of a professional, I would certainly think that they should be paid for their time and effort. Why should a shadchan be any different than anyone else providing a service to you?
The Wolf
9 days bump
How about responding to my response?
The Wolf
DafYomi.co.il has a Review Q&A section on each daf.
The Wolf
I once went to a pidyon haben for an adult male – he made it for himself. He became dati as an adult, and found out he required a pidyon haben but had never had one. I will always remember this one!
When we did my son’s Pidyon HaBen, there was a Russian person who had a safek as to whether or not he needed a Pidyon. He asked us if he could do so at our son’s (since we had the Kohen there already). We said yes (with the Kohen’s permission, of course) and he did his own Pidyon (without a bracha) right after our son’s.
The Wolf
And, Many of the posters here prove total ignorance to cultures other than their own and I find it funny that they would share their ignorance so blatanlty in public.
So, instead of just belittling other people’s ignorance, how about pointing out where they are wrong, so that they (and the rest of us) can learn something, rather than just perpetuating the ignorance?
The Wolf
WolfishMusings – sometimes stuff are big and all capital letters just to make sure you know whats important not trying to shout.
They may not be trying to shout, but they are anyway.
In addition, they may think that they’re attracting people to read the post, but the reality is probably the opposite. People tend to skip things that are in all caps like that. I know I skipped it (as I generally do when people shout like that).
And, as I pointed out, it isn’t any more true (or false) just because it’s in all caps. If the point is valid, then it’s just as valid typed in normal case.
The Wolf
“SHOMER PESAYIM HASHEM”
No reason to shout. Your point isn’t any more true or false because you type it in ALL CAPS. All it does it makes me not want to read your post.
The Wolf
Wolf: They rip down the erev by the park a couple of weeks ago knocking out both the Crown Heights & Park Slopes Erevs and although they got a video and the hate crime unit is investigating there have been no arrests.
You do understand that my answer was a joke, right? You did see the smiley and the rimshot, right? A play on the words Eruv Rav…
The Wolf
wolfish musings – your referring to a lady that was not born religious. it is so different. cannot even compare the 2. whatever she did keep that was extra was good enough for her.
So what? You’ve decided that because she smoked she’s off the derech.
The Wolf
Nu, kapusta, would you still describe it as an oxymoron to say that Wolf’s mother was both a nice person and a smoker? And, Syag, would you still compare Wolf’s mom, who smoked, to a girl in tight clothes?
Please, do me a favor. I did not mean to bring my mother into this to become an object of argument. I simply wanted to bring the OP to the realization that smoking is not “off the derech” and that a person’s life, in totality, needs to be considered. It was to bring the OP to that realization that I brought her up — not for any other.
I would take it as a kindness if you not use her as a point in an argument.
Thank you.
The Wolf
i think “frum” boys who smoke should be considered OTD even if they go to yeshiva and learn all day, etc….
I know you didn’t meant this when you wrote it, but I have to tell you, I find your definition of OTD to be personally offensive.
My mother was raised in a non-oberservant home and began smoking as a teenager. After her marriage broke up (at age thirty) she became Orthodox as a single mother, encouraging my sister and I to become Shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos. She sacrificed personally and professionally to remain a Shomeres Torah U’Mitzvos and if you were to ask her if she could have any one thing in the world (and only that thing), it would have been that her children become/remain fine, upstanding frum Jews. She fought to get my sister and I into yeshivos, recognizing that public school was not the option that would serve our spiritual growth. She faced opposition from yeshivos that did not want us but, with the help of HKBH and some friends, she was able to prevail.
I was not the best of teens and certainly gave my mother a fair amount of grief. While I did not appreciate it as a child, I know that she shed plenty of tears in prayer that her children grow up to establish Torah-observant homes.
As her health failed (she had lots of health issues unrelated to her smoking [although the smoking certainly didn’t help them]), she would still do whatever she possibly could to observe the mitzvos to the best of her physical ability. Anyone who knew her would characterize her as an example of a pillar of faith. Anyone who had her extensive health problems after becoming observant could almost be excused for questioning their faith, but my mother, despite being in physical pain for the last twenty five years of her life, never questioned her faith. I never once heard the words “Why me?” (or the equivalent) escape her lips.
Over the years, she tried several times to stop smoking but was never successful. Despite all sorts of encouragement, cajoling and support from my sister and I and our children, she was just never able to kick the habit.
So, yeah, she should not have smoked. Granted. Bad on her for that. But to hear you cavalierly toss off this woman as “off the derech” and equate her with people who are mechallel Shabbos, eat pork and don’t observe the mitzvos in general is deeply offensive.
Of course, you didn’t know my mother and you were thinking of yeshiva bochrim rather than a woman who completely changed her life and made a major commitment to Yiddishkeit, sacrificed for it, cried for it and made it (and her childrens’ commitment to it) the central focus of her life. But that doens’t change the fact that you still want to lump her in with the completely non-observant.
Please be careful when you throw out the term OTD and who you decide to include in that category. I think that, given how much she demonstrated her commitment to Torah and Mitzvos over the course of her life, is it deeply unfair and (admittedly unintentionally) offensive to categorize her as “off the derech” for the habit she could not kick. It’s as if you’re saying “all that you did… meaningless, because you were still off the derech.”
The Wolf
Isn’t the Eruv Rav the one who goes around every week checking to make sure the Eruv is kosher? 🙂 (Rimshot)
The Wolf
Not everyone thinks marriage is friendship (the past few issues of AMI covered this topic, it ISNT friendship)
No, marriage is not a friendship, but friendship is (IMHO) an essential component of a marriage.
The Wolf
I’m not a huge fan of davening with a fast minyan, but sometimes it’s a “necessary evil.”
The Wolf
I was in the Bahamas for a brief stay earlier this year yes of course if you go to the beaches there will be pritzus but there is much culture to see and enjoy and fun activities that do not involve the beach.
Eeees and I went to St. Thomas (and St. John) a number of years ago. The people on the island dress fairly conservatively away from the beaches (certainly no worse than you would find in any major metropolitan city on the mainland). We had a great time and brought our own meat (other kosher staples were available there). As for swimming, we had our own private pool, so going to the beaches was not a concern for us.
The Wolf
I REFUSE TO LIVE UNDER THE ZIONIST KEFIRAH REGIME, I am a torah jew and this is my way of life , I don’t know what you are but i am not some friendly liberal pro gay pro arab tolerant rabbi of Anshe shalom reform,
Wow. So to you, Zionist = “liberal pro gay pro arab tolerant rabbi of Anshe shalom reform?”
The Wolf
Wolfish Musings. Now one will 100 percent be ready for marriage, it’s like jumping in the pool for the first time. You can know how to swim but you can’t know how it feels to jump in the deep end til you jump.
I don’t believe I said that you have to be 100% ready. You’re right… nobody is 100% certain of anything. But people don’t base their lives on 100% certainty. If they did, they’d never get *anything* done.
A person should not get married until they are reasonably certain that it’s the right thing for them. And if they are not ready, then they should not get married. Very few things spell disaster like forcing someone into a marriage that they don’t really want.
The Wolf
Wouldn’t separate minyanim be racist?
If they are separated by force (as is the case with schools), perhaps.
The Wolf
wolfish musings – who finished college by 18?
I didn’t say anything about college. Furthermore, finishing college is not (and should not be) a prerequisite to marriage. I wasn’t done with college when I got married, and neither was Eeees (in fact, we both took a class together after we were married).
We got married at 21 and 19. We were ready then.
Wolf, what if he or she doesn’t feel ready by age 30? Continue waiting?
Yes. What are you going to do? Force someone to get married against their will? If they don’t want to/are not ready to get married, then they shouldn’t. That applies when they are twenty, thirty, forty, sixty or even eighty.
The Wolf
Apparently, ?????????? is the only instance of a dagesh alef in the Torah, and therefore it is stressed. Does anyone know anywhere else where they do that?
I took a look at that pasuk (V 23:17) and my ArtScroll chumash does not have a dagesh in the aleph there.
I was very surprised to see this post (I missed the original) because an aleph is one of the five letters that, to the best of my knowledge, can NEVER have a dagesh.
Can you provide more info on where you saw that this word should have a dagesh in the aleph?
The Wolf
There is no “normal age.” Every person is different and only they can decide for themselves when they are ready to get married. If someone is mature enough at eighteen that he can handle the complexities of a marriage, then by all means. If he’s not, then he should wait until he is ready.
The Wolf
If no one wins 270 it goes to Congress (the current term not the incoming class) and the Republicans control a majority of congressional state delegations to choose the winner.
I do not believe you are correct with regard to which Congress votes. The electoral votes aren’t officially tallied by Congress until the new House convenes in early January, so it would be the House in the new Congress that votes, not the old.
The Wolf
The passuk in Hoshea states”those who kiss the calf ,will kill a/the man”
Really??? Are you aware of the context of the verse at all?
1. The verse is talking about a golden calf, not a live animal.
2. You’ve reversed the sentence. It should read “those who kill a man will kiss the calf.
3. Rashi explains it as a statement of the priests of Molech that one who offers his son to Molech will be worthy to kiss the golden calf.
The verse has absolutely nothing to do with being kind (or unkind) to animals.
The Wolf
wolfish musings – believe it or not many mo people would not use the eiruv. the eiruv in new york is not an eiruv that we can use. the people who would use it are the people who are OTD. for me i consider it breaking shabbos.
I wasn’t commenting about the eruv one way or the other. I was addressing Joseph’s point that he didn’t mean his comment about women driving as being universal when he left it in a manner that clearly implied it.
The Wolf
For them, it’s just being a nice person, and they will jump to do chesed with goyim, toeva-people, and anyone else – even animals.
And the problem with being a nice person (even to animals) is….?
The Wolf
Finnish Jewery? But I’ve just begun! (rimshot)
The Wolf
(Sorry… I know it’s not helpful, but I couldn’t resist!)
Do you always qualify halachic opinions you share with a disclaimer “but other rabbis disagree”?
(i.e. “Don’t use the eruv in Flatbush. But other rabbis disagree.”)
Baloney. That’s what you’re hiding behind?
You could have said “some groups don’t allow women to drive” or “there are opinions that a woman shouldn’t drive.” The way you phrased it, it was clearly meant as an absolute.
If asked about the eruv, I would say “there are some people who don’t use the eruv” or “there are different opinions about it.” If you asked me what I, personally do, I would say “I don’t use the eruv, but there are many that do.”
(Cue the Joseph line that I’m a tazaddik and a lamed-vovnik…)
The Wolf
So Avraham Avinu kicked out his son
Not of his own volition. It’s obvious from the pesukim that he did NOT want to do that. In the end, he only did it because he was commanded to.
The Wolf
I didn’t say l’chol hadeios.
You didn’t qualify it by saying “some say” either.
The Wolf
Women shouldn’t be driving.
And, apparently, many rabbonim disagree with you, as their wives drive.
The Wolf
Food would be a problem for a frum president as in many cultures you are expected to eat the food they give you or its considered an insult.
That may be true, but if the president were observant vis-a-vis Kashrus (and it were publicly known), they would be sure to serve him only Kosher food. I’m sure that the President doesn’t serve pork to Saudi officials when they dine at official dinners.
The Wolf
I hope you at least have the decency to put them in the trunk.
Only if I’m feeling overly righteous that day.
The Wolf
I also sometimes give rides to my wife and daughter.
The Wolf
I give my daughter’s friends rides home at night. I don’t want them walking alone late at night.
The Wolf
In Belief, IT SURE is
Belief in what?
In a young earth? In the efficacy of segulos? In the authenticity of the Zohar? In the acceptance or dismissal of Zionism? In the belief that Chazal knew all of science?
In what way is Judaism, in belief, an all or nothing religion? Because if you define it as so, then there are very, very, very few actual Jews.
The Wolf
What is the point of his role… if everything is permitted and nothing forbidden (except maybe… yearning for the geulah)???????
If you really want to know, why don’t you just call one up and ask?
The Wolf
OTD doesn’t believe in g-d and throws of the whole religion.
Nonsense. I know many people who are OTD, not atheists, and don’t throw out the “whole religion.”
The Wolf
what is your definition of OTD, MO, Yeshivish, chasidish,regular (frum yid)?
So, MO, Yeshivish or Chassidic people aren’t “regular, frum yidden?”
The Wolf
Wasn’t their a Jewish King of Poland?
There.
You’re probably thinking of Saul Wahl. It’s disputable whether or not he actually was king, but even if he was, it was only for a single day — August 18, 1587.
The Wolf
Less and Wolfish, I am so glad that my inelegant phrasing gave you an opportunity to demonstrate your superior intelligence to us all with your acerbic and witty barb.
My apologies. I meant it in more of a joking manner and certainly didn’t mean to come off sounding acerbic. However, re-reading it in retrospect, I can certainly see why you would think that I did. My apologies.
The Wolf
Is the car dealership frum?
Are my photographs frum? Is the SQL code I write frum? Is the food I cook frum?
Perhaps you should have asked for a car dealership owned/operated by a frum Jew.
The Wolf
A mechallel Shabbos has no chezkas kashrus, so a survey of OTD folks is unreliable and untrustworthy.
Heh… I can see it now. Joseph is having an OTD person(well call him Abe) over for dinner.
“So, would you like chicken or beef? I prepared both,” Joseph asks.
“Hmmm, I think I’ll have the chicken.”
“Of course,” says Joseph. “But since you’re a mechallel Shabbos and are not trustworthy to tell the truth, I think you really prefer the beef. I’ll bring that out.”
The Wolf
True, if you fill it with explosives and throw it at him/her.
The Wolf
Whenever the President gives the State of the Union Address, there is one cabinet member who is dubbed the “Designated Survivor” and does not attend. This is done so that, should some disaster (God forbid) befall the Capitol, there will still be someone in the line of succession to assume the Presidency. So that person stays at home and watches the speech on TV (or does something else).
Very often, at weddings, I’m made the “Designated Survivor” and given the kibbud of staying at home.
The Wolf
From the way you are writing, I surmise that you Moshiach agent hold that when you ???-????? comes out on ??? that you don’t fast
To be fair, he did make the point above that Yom Kippur is an exception (emphasis mine).
whenever a fast-except yom kippur-comes out either on friday or Shabbos
The Wolf
Whether you like it or not, yarmulke styles do represent hashkafos.
Right now, I have a very large, completely black kippah serugah on my head. So, what hashkafah to I represent? Modern Chareidi?
It’s not even relevant why the child might “want” to wear a kippah serugah; if the school told him not to, he shouldn’t.
It may not be relevant, but it still obviously mattered. That’s *exactly* the kind of situation that calls for further discussion to get to the root of why it matters, rather than just a “do it because that’s the rule” type of answer.
The Wolf
I think MA is entitled to make a mistake without getting beaten up over it.
Not when you double down after your error has been pointed out to you. When I pointed out to him that we fast on 10 Teves when it falls out on Friday, he could have done any number of things:
He could have looked up the halacha himself to see if he is right or wrong
He could have asked someone if he is right or wrong
He could have spent five minutes using Google to see if he’s right or wrong
He could have said “Hmmm… you might be right, but I’d like to check further before conceding the point.”
However, instead of even considering the possibility that someone else might be right, he chose to instead to further insist on his correctness.
The Wolf
You’re criticizing Rav Shteinman, Wolf?
Criticizing? No. Disagreeing? Given the facts as presented, yes. I’m not required to believe that any rav is incapable of error.
I’ll grant that there is the possibility that there is more than being presented here and, if so, then perhaps I would not disagree. But, as presented, I do.
The Wolf
No, it was a sharp answer, because there are no real alternate possibilities
Yes there were. I even provided a few possible legitimate reasons why he might not want to wear the one the school wanted. Given the facts as presented, he didn’t even ask why the kid would want to wear a different yarmulke – he basically indicated that there was no possible reason to want to wear a different one.
The Wolf