ubiquitin

Thanks DY

Health

Pretending you are right,

who was the eid? Who was the dayan?

Health,

he wasnt 6 in high school, they didnt trade. Ramos took his sandwich

Ok So when you can say “very good” when cops get killed, well you are right we dont belong to the same religion. Nobody I know from Open orthodoxy coming full circle to neturei karta agrees with you.

does healthism (or does your religion have a more creative name?) have many adherents? I would imagine the life expectancy in your religion isnt very high

As to your question:”Did you agree with Sharpton when he said “Kill the Jews”?”

Obviously not (did he actually say that? I have never heard that claim before, but no matter I’m not sure I agree with al sharpton ever, he is an evil person, though not as evil as people who call the murder of any inocen person let alone police officers “very good”)

“The mob then did kill S/O! If not, what’s the difference between mobs?”

I’m sorry I dont follow. which mob? in 91? Do you mean Charles Price? He was jailed for incitement.

Are you talking about something else?

Health You have still not answered here is my question again:

“”If it tuns out that Officers Ramos and Liu have ever stolen anything in their lives (even a shava perutah or less), ever been mevarech Hashem, gilui Arayos etc, then it is “very good” that they got shot!?”

(this is what you replied: “What religion are you? Why do libs always have to make the good people (cops) bad & the bad people good?” I dont see an answer there, As to your question I am definitely not an adherent of healthism)

DY, I never said they attemped to harm him, and of course he was resisting arrest.

Gamanit

That isnt exactly how grand juries work they can indict any one they want. For them to watch that video and say nobody did naything worthy of goinfg to trial is upseting o me and worthy of protest. This point has gotten lost over the course of this conversation. I’m not sure that the officers should be found guilty, all I’m saying is there should at least be a trial. For a grand jury to watch the video I saw and conclude nothing wrong took place is very disconcerting and worthy of protest. That is all I am saying. (If you read through the entire looooong conversation this is clear, it may not be apparent from one specific comment). To this end Nequetim agrees, protest is acceptable, he also agrees he police were (partly) “culpable” in the death and used “excessive force” our argument now is if the grand jury should automatically be accepted or not.

So really even if THOSE officers were justly not charged, it doesnt really change the overall situation, in whihc an injustice took place and nobody is being called to answer for it

I love wikipedia, but if you read something that sounds strange check the source. If you look at the source where the heart attack is referenced, it is not there

Neutiquam

-“The facts were that a legal process determined by years of democracy was carried out”

Years of democracy doesnt make it right. ITs not like it is a sytem that is reevluated and fixed, it hasnt chnaged in quite some time, is arguably antiquitated and most of the Western world has dropped it.

-“it would have been even less likely he would be found guilty of a crime.”

I have no problem with that

-“You believe the Jury was wrong. It’s possible, I’ll grant you that”

Hence the protest, Now I think we agree more than we disagree. The discussion began over wether those who protest deserve police protection, You from the start agreed protest was accepable and now concede tha the Jury may have even been wrong! (Which arguably would demand for protest)

-“you have gone from calling it murder to manslaughter over the last few posts”

My view hasnt chanegd I just shifted from using a coloquial expression to legal as per your request. (I dont think i said manslaughter, it isnt manslaughter , I’d call it negligent homicide)

-“We have both got our colouring of the case from the media.”

I dont care for the media they have 24 hours of news o fill and their almost necer is 24 hours of news so they make stuff up to fill most of the time. I got my view on this case from watching the incident myself.

– you keep asking for a better system. I dont think that is my responsobility, but at your insistence sure! here is an idea lets screen out potential biased grand jurors. A reform that has been called for for years and now is being spoken of again thanks to this very case, and the PROTESTS that followed.

Health

I dont know fake halacha so well, but I’ll bite. Why was he a treifa?

You also didnt respond to my question to you. here it is again:

“If it tuns out that Officers Ramos and Liu have ever stolen anything in their lives (even a shava perutah or less), ever been mevarech Hashem, gilui Arayos etc, then it is “very good” that they got shot!?”

Nequeitam

– “The Jury decided that there was no case to answer” I beleive the jury was wrong. And this isnt the first time

-“the Jury’s verdict is doubtless better informed that mine or yours'” Doubtless? A jury of 12 people too dumb to get out of jury duty is now doubtless? You are aware that in choosing a jury lawyers avoid educated people as thye prefer people they can manipulate.

also you have quite a few “probably”s in your post.

-“but you appear unclear as to the process, and freely say that you have no idea how the law can be improved.”

I have lots of ideas bu we are already of topic, if something is worng I dont think you have to offer a better solution inorder to be allowed to protest.

-“don’t actually seem to know why”

Weve been going at this for quite a few posts, you can disagree with me obviously, but I think Ive been pretty clear on why I think an injustice occured here.

-Your congress suggestion was hilarious btw (I assume you were kidding, if you were serious that paragraph is more naive than the one about the infalliable jury)

– “That enough for ya’?”

No! Thats a “probably” and “almost certainly” Definitely not enough to get off scot free fur killing (even accidentally)

-“And I will always support the right to protest”

Again so we agree! as Ive said from my very first post that mentioned you.

-“th officers had no idea he had asthma”

The guy looked like a walking health disaster. YW fan says he wheezed when he taked and couldnt walk a block.

-” But the system then was not the system of today”

Not sure if you are serious. It is exactly the same!

-“that case is evidence of a possible incorrect jury ruling is both conjecture and inaccurate.”

Agreed! it was definitely incorrect jury ruling (Oj later all but confessed). (Though I wonder how you can judge that case if you arent clued in to the events of that trial)

YW fan glad to help (though we have covered this)

If he didnt have asthma they would be LESS culpable in murder. I gave an example of pushing on a person’s head. with a tiny bit of force. If by some freak accident a person died as a result of that, it wouldnt be murder, (maybe manslaughter). However if the persn was an infant with a open fontanelle (“soft spot”) you wouldnt say (I hope) well the baby’s physical condition led to its death.

Or (more direct nalagy) if I find a chronic COPD’R who is oxygen dependent and I clamp down on his oxygen supply watch him die as he gasps “I cant breathe” Would you say, well if he wasnt so sick clamping on oxygen wouldnt kill him so his medical issues are what casued death not my choking off his oxygen supply.

Health,

I’m not sure if you are serious, Garner wasn’t being arrested/killed for grand larceny. What does that have to do with anything? Are you aying becasue of his stealing in the past it allows for him to be killed?

If so, it would follow based on your “logic” that any body who stole ever can just be killed.

If it tuns out that Officers Ramos and Liu have ever stolen anything in their lives (even a shava perutah or less), ever been mevarech Hashem, gilui Arayos etc, then it is “very good” that they got shot!?

And you have the nerve to attribute this gross krumkeit to Hashem?

Health

you are making less and less sense, in the wild west theri was free reign to kill whomever you didnt like, we do not live in the wild west, that is why the police should be held to a standard and answer for their actions.

you must have a different list of 7 mitzvos, mine doesnt include selling loose cigarettes. What on Earth are you talking about,.

Please don’t insult the Torah by dragging it in to defend your krum bloodthirsty shitos. Everybody from Reform going full circle to Neturei karta also claims they have the Torah on their side. If you have a source indicating that selling loose cigarettes or resisting arrest is punishable by the death penalty fine otherwise stop claiming to speak for Hashem.

Lior

So we agree, this discussion was if there is a right to protest. Yw fan in the op says no.

Health

Are you serious “very good” that a person was killed. I can disagree with those who say it was sad but unavoidable and the police shouldnt be held accountable. You don’t deserve talking to. Killing unarmed, harmless people for crimes that dont carry the deatg penalty, is never “very good” and I dont see how a good person can call it such.

Gamnit,

Not good enough, after holding his breath causing him to gasp for air, they shouldve provided oxygen and probably albuterol and steroids too. Not doing so is part of their act of murder.

Yw fan

Neutiquam does not agree with you “in this case it (violence) was too much”

Yw fan

Lior, yes

DY, I briefly alluded to that earlier. among Asian cultures the custom on Christmas is davka to give money and not presents, though I am not sure if that would be a factor, since if we were to ban every custom any society has that is related to A”Z there woudlnt be much left to do. What are your thoughts. Shoudl the Asian custom be a factor (according to the Gr”a) or do we limit it to custom’s that surronding society does?

In English that is called choking to death

YW are you serious? It means he is about to stop breathing A body cant sustain breathing @ 50 for too long, especially if in spite of that he isnt oxygenating well.

So let me get this straight, if im choking somone he says I cant breathe I cant breathe then passes out and dies. I didnt kill him, since obviously he was able to breathe while I choked him (since he was talking), and then he just happned to pass out for some other reason nothing to do with my chokehold on his neck. Do you actually beleive this?

Picturesq, resisting arrest doenst carry the death penalty

YW fan there is nothing there to change anybody’s mind. I hope.

The video of Garner being killed is widely available. If not enought o convict, at the least it shouldve led to a trial that it didnt is a travesty of justice that should lead all to protest.

This line “he died as a result of poor health and cardiac arrest. Mr. Garner was obese and had a history of asthma, diabetes, and other health issues resulting from his poor medical condition.” is even more nonsense, so using this “logic” if I kill someone who is oxygen dependent by say clamping on his O2 supply, I am not culpable since if the victim dint require a steady oxygen supply, my clmaing a tube wouldnt have harmed him. That he suffered from chronic ailments is reason for the police to have been even more cautious in how they subdue the non-violent felon, not less so!

shoejoe. Those tunes are kown as “misinai” as an expression they arent litterally from Sinai.

As to the OP’s question outside of written word it is hard (impossible?)to pass down a mesorah over that long a period. Think of tzaras/exact color of techeiles which have been lost over the years. Even within the written word think how many machlokasim have arisen over the years, even involving basic things like sounds of shofar, orders of parshiyos of tefilin, of course explanations have been given as to how those disagreements arose, but the interuptions/confusion/disagreement in our mesorah is real (we have ways to deal with it, his isnt a question). Even within the written Torah their are differences between ours and chazal’s and even among ours their are 10 differences between most of ours and Teimanim (the most well known of which is Dakah with a “heh” or “aleph”) That tunes have been lost is o be expected.

scared not quite. Anti-vaccinators are not interested in the truth, if they were this one would be easy since they can look at any of dozens of peer reviewed studies proving the safety of vaccines.

Anti-vaccinators are guilty people putting theri own and other children at risk.

If an ignoramus came along and innocently asked vaccine safety be proven, no problem do a quick pubmed search.

What? DY and I are in agreement, (baruch shechiyanu…)

Also here is where your point really falls apart. You (now) say there isn’t anything technically wrong with it, which of course make it mutar. But it isnt “in the spirit”

Now most people giving gifts, arent giving it to be like goyim, they are either giving it because that is the present day minhag (or “minhag” if you prefer, i.e what is done lemaseh) So you are saying that they should think they are doing it to be like goyim, making it not in the spirit and therefore avoid it. Being “in the spirit” of something, by definition requires people to think about the connotation you ascribe to the act

That doesnt necessarily make it assur, please see the chanukah gift thread for further info. (Or Y.D. 178 if you are really adventurous)

Thanks DY great source.

Lior in case you have trouble, he lumps together both gift giving/money using them interchangebly and wonders whether BOTH are chukas akum, ofc ourse cites the Rema that since has a rational reason both are allowed.

(As an aside oomis the chashmanoim were far far from the first to mint coins)

Lior, Not quite the rema says a minhag thta has a rational explanation his example is special outfit for doctors) isnt assur.

Are you saying gift giving isnt rational?

Did you read the Rema?

The funniest part to me is that if we were having this discussion a century from now (or if our Grandchildren would), once the minhag has completley evolved to gifts, EEK and Lior will be defending the ancient heilege minhag of giving davka gifts on chanuka. Pointing out all sorts of hidden kabbalastic interpretations, If you take the first to letters of “matana” in mispr kattan it equas 8 keneged the days of chanukah, while the mispar kattan of the last to letters is 10 keneged the seva sephiros and the three avos etc…

While I (or Grandchildren) will point out actually, minhag of gifts are fairly new and a century ago people argued it was actually goyish.

Minhagim always evolve. chazal don’t mention chanuka Gelt, neither do any Rishonim The minhag of gelt started later and like many minhagim evolved now the minhag is changing to Gifts (among some).

Is the mekor from Goyim? Probably (Though I’m willing to bet that Gelt came from Goyim too but no source at the moment)

does that make it assur? Well we have halachos for that go through Y.D. 178. It is quite hard to argue that it is assur.

Voos epes, by far most people here (and not here for that matter)disagree with you.

That we don’t comment is becasue of several reasons, including:

1) PBA and others are doing a fine job pointing out how wrong/foolish you are

2) You arent bright enough nor honest enough to realize the errors of your ways, so arguing with you may be a waste of time

Lior, we can discuss that separately, as they did in fact promote the cult but this is waaay off topic. Regardless though you havent answered my question:

“can you give an example that makes you view Ami as left of center?”