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Meshane, I believe, not meshana.
Anyway, I did it, no regrets so far.
I fully agree with oomis and cinderella.
Women vote. This is not Iran, and not a ‘halachic’ state – which cannot exist until bias moshiach (and even then I highly doubt there will be much of a democracy at all).
The idea of forbidding women to vote in modern times sounds completely crazy.
Anyway, I would, nevertheless, completely support such a proposal. Women shouldn’t be given the responsibility to vote! Neither should they be given the responsibility to work. One who cannot be trusted to vote in elections, certainly cannot be trusted to work in any company – or even worse, work with children!
@Avi K:
“She said that the moment she left the Jewish area she was filled with fear.”
It’s not that bad. Also: could you describe the feeling you felt when you walked through the Old City but accidentally walked out of the Jewish Quarter into the Muslim Quarter? When is the last time you went for a nice Shabbos walk in Ras el-Amud, Silwan or Isawiya? (All alone and unarmed, of course, with a big knit kippah on your head.)
There are dangerous places everywhere. In the UK, in The Netherlands, in Belgium, in France, in Germany, and in the US as well. And in E”Y as well. What’s the big deal? That’s life.
In any case, the number of people who were killed for being Jews in Britain is still a lot lower than the same number in E”Y.
Freightened with what type of freight?
(Did you mean ‘frightened’?)
There is nothing special, it is exactly the same as always. Wars come and go in Israel ever since it was founded, exactly the promised result for the 3 shvuos.
This war will be exactly like the previous ones, maybe a little worse. The best thing we could do would be to defuse the situation by ignoring the Iranians, rather than continuously inciting the Iranians ever more which is what the Israeli government seems to be doing.
@Health, good point – I should move from the UK to the US, since it’s even further away from Iran. 🙂
Seriously, living in the UK really does give me an amazing peace of mind, in that regard. In E”Y I was there during the last parts of the second ‘intifada’, I was there during the 2006 Lebanon war, and I always knew some day there was the chance we would suddenly get hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands (just recently the IDF Chief of Stadd said 200,000) missiles raining down on me.
Here in the UK, there is, basically, no serious chance of anything like that ever going to happen again anytime soon. The Iranian missiles can’t reach the UK, and even if they could, Iran couldn’t by any means build enough nukes to turn all of Europe into a huge parking lot.
Really, the knowledge that the UK is safe from any type of local war (excluding the Falklands which is heating up, but that’s not exactly ‘local’ even though it is UK territory), really does give me some peace of mind.
What mitzvah? There is (in our times) no such mitzvah as “yishuv haaretz”.
That’s IMHO as well as ITHOOT (in the humble opinions of the) Satmar Rov, and numerous, countless other gedolim as well….
Same thing happened somewhere else about 2 months ago. Some factory dumped something into the water, harmless but distasteful, IIRC. Hope this case isn’t worse.
??? ????? ?? ??? ? ?????. ???????? ?? ??? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???.
Did I just invent a new language? 🙂
It’s a “we’re really frum and we don’t want to wear short jackets and we like shtreimels and we speak Yiddish and so we’ll just unintentionally / unconsciously turn into chassidim” thing.
There are plenty of similar groups. Dushinsky became a ‘chassidus’, same for most of the other Yerushalmi groups. They don’t have any mesorah from the Besht.
Right, with Amsterdam it’s very important to know where you go. Basically look at it like this. Anybody visiting Amsterdam will, usually, start of at the Central Station. (There are something like 10-15 trains per hour between the airport and the Central Station, and be aware – taxis are EXTREMELY expensive in The Netherlands! So almost everyone goes by train.)
From the Central Station, you look towards the south-east. Right in the middle in front of you is the Damrak, the long, major street towards Dam square (after that Damrak turns into Rokin). Basically, you can follow the Damrak, and go anywhere to the right – but better avoid anything to the left (ie, northeast) of the Damrak / Dam / Rokin line. It’s pretty easy to see what I mean on Google Maps. The ‘safe’ line goes around in a circle towards Waterlooplein (metro station) and the Rembrandt House Museum which you easily see on Google Maps. Basically, avoid everything within that area.
There are plenty of amazing places such as the markets (Waterlooplein, Albert Cuypstraat), the canals (just walking along the canals is really nice, especially in the evening), and just the general feeling of a (relatively) huge, very busy European classical city. It’s totally different from NYC, I think – not that I’ve ever been there. Amsterdam has a lot less cars in the city center, I suppose. The streets are much smaller. But the mix of all kinds of people (both inhabitants and tourists) generally living together in peace is amazing. And just the sounds of the city – even though I never lived in Amsterdam myself, I always particularly enjoy hearing the sound of the trams. It’s a happy sort of sound. Taking trams to tour the city can be nice also, for example Tram 5 which goes from the Central Station via the city center towards the Jewish area (Buitenveldert and the suburb of Amstelveen) is very nice.
Anyway, I’m off…
I like this one from uneeq: “CR – Crazy Retards or Community Rabbis”
As for me, I’ve seen myself referred to as TCG. (Isn’t there an illicit drug by that name? Oh no, that’s THC… Marihuana. Close enough.)
@hershi – they * do not * speak it…. 🙂
@Ken Zayn: Yiddish is 95% German. Me, being a – ok, not fluent, but quite good – German and Hebrew speaker, I have little difficulty following Yiddish. The number of words in Yiddish that are *not* German, Hebrew or Aramaic is extremely small.
@hershi – that depends on what sort of Jews. If one is a Satmar chossid from London, the second a Belzer from Antwerp, and the third a Yerushalmi, then yes, Yiddish might be the language that bonds them. For the rest of the world though, in all honesty, it’s English nowadays, I believe…
@zahavasdad – Ask me for tips regarding The Netherlands. Even though I’m not from Amsterdam, I do know the city quite well.
Don’t know unfortunately. But while there I highily recommend going to the Pshevorsker beis medrash, absolutely one of the most amazing places there.
“Agav, have you ever tried speaking Yiddish to Gerrer chassidim in Israel? They look at you as if you have fallen off the moon! (Agav, is agav Yiddish or Hebrew?)”
I tried. And failed. (The older ones do speak it, by the way.)
It’s sort of funny. I wonder how they themselves feel about it.
Anyway, most Litvishe people in EY don’t speak Yiddish either. Only a small minority do – specific ‘hardcore’ groups around some yeshivos, and the Brisk/Yerushalmi Litvaks. From my experience, 90% of Bnei Brak Litvaks don’t speak any Yiddish. (Though it has been quite a few years since I lived there.)
longarekel and YD said everything that needs to be said.
Now, please, everyone, let’s end this…
@moi aussi –
“In German we ask “verstehst du?”, so the Yiddish version “farshteist?” (with s) is not strange at all.
(My mother tongue is Yiddish, and I’m fluent in German too)”
Sorry, it was 1 AM or so and I was half asleep. Don’t know how I could be so stupid. Of course farshteist is from verstehst…. 🙂 (And I only slept 4-5 hours, so expect more similar goofs from me today. And anyone who cannot handle people with a bad temper, stay awaaaaay from me today.)
What are ‘meshugasim’? Is that Chinese?
Avi K:
Please do also respond to my question:
================================
Avi K and AinOhdMilvado:
I’d just like to confirm that both of you:
1) Live in Israel;
2) Have renounced your American citizenship and are indeed no longer American citizens;
3) That you have done the same for your wifes and children and possible grandchildren (ie, that nobody in your family holds an American citizenship).
If I am mistaken and you are not originally American, then replace ‘American’ with Canadian, British, or whatever your nationality was before becoming Israeli.
============================
Otherwise, please retract your words:
“me, anyone who wants to “keep his options often” as “hishtadlut” is oevr on the Sin of the Spies (unless he is already receiving benefits as a citizen of another counntry and woiuld lose them).”
Same for AOM. Still awaiting your reply to that.
@uneeq: actually I wasn’t born frum and I don’t really know Yiddish all that well, I just manage to follow it (reading things such as Der Yid, Der Blatt and seforim, and listening) without any problems and can speak it quite good as well, but that’s only because I learned German as a child already, and since I pick up languages quite easily I can adapt to (PROPER) Yiddish without much of a problem.
I do get a bit annoyed at “American Yiddish” which is totally strange, such as the above “farshteist” – it’s “farshteit”, without the last s (original German: “versteht” – the only difference is instead of “versteht” which is pronounced, for Americans, as “vershtate”, we pronounce it as “vershteit”). Or people writing “um” instead of “un” (we discussed that recently). Proper Yiddishe sforim don’t write like that. I have “Dibros Kodesh” of Satmar right here next to me and it doesn’t write that anywhere. For example, “ours” is ???????, not ???????. Also Yidden is written properly: ????? – from German “Juden”. It is NOT ????? or anything like that.
Those who write such things simply don’t know the language properly…. we saw these words a while ago:
????????????
??????????????
Proper spelling would be:
????????????
??????????????
And indeed you find Google results for that also from hebrewbooks.org, from others who do indeed know how to write it correctly.
The fact that modern-day American (and even E”Y) Yiddish-speakers don’t know how to write Yiddish properly doesn’t change that… unfortunately.
Creedmoor – sure, I believe you. I know Babylon, the company behind the translation software, quite well. They are the biggest thieves and fraudsters I have ever seen. I have never worked for such an unethical company. (Did I mention it’s 99,9% secular?) In fact I quit there after a couple of weeks when I discovered how they make their money. Again – most unethical company I ever saw. Don’t ever waste your money on them. Use Google Translate instead (it’s much better anyway, and free).
“Argo teas are often flavored. The additional flavorings can pose serious Kashrus issues.”
I don’t know Argo – I have never set foot on your side of the Atlantic. But yes, as I mentioned before, vanilla can be problematic I don’t know of anything else. Plain teas, all tastes, are absolutely fine.
What you write is completely true.
Also, I myself see it a bit different. I don’t see myself as affiliated specifically with 1 single place. I feel that I am as much Dutch as Israeli – and generally, European (note that I include Israel as part of Europe – I believe geographically that makes sense).
I speak fluent German, and I feel perfectly at home anywhere in The Netherlands, (Dutch-speaking) Belgium, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, and the UK – and Israel. So if someone asks me, what am I really? I’m a citizen of the 21st century (loazi) – sorry, 58th century just doesn’t fit here. In this time, we don’t necessarily have to choose between one country or the other.
As you mention, one can live in EY and telecommute with America. I’m doing it the other way around: living and working in the UK with customers in EY.
And not just customers – I happen to work with particularly important customers, in particular extremely large companies and government agencies, on their most critical IT systems. I wonder what Avi K and AOM have to say about that?
All tea is kosher, except for tea with vanilla which should be avoided, I believe.
The true language of machlokes is “Ivrit” which is an artificial, invented language.
Yiddish came to be by itself in the German-speaking world, exactly the same way that “Yeshivish” came about in the English-speaking world. It was not invented or made by anyone.
‘Ivrit’ on the other hand was invented by humans for political reasons.
However, the real language of machlokes is that of uneeq:
“this ancient relic”
“this so called “Jewish language” “
” a machloikes-inducing language”
And you talk about machlokes?!
Avi K and AinOhdMilvado:
I’d just like to confirm that both of you:
1) Live in Israel;
2) Have renounced your American citizenship and are indeed no longer American citizens;
3) That you have done the same for your wifes and children and possible grandchildren (ie, that nobody in your family holds an American citizenship).
If I am mistaken and you are not originally American, then replace ‘American’ with Canadian, British, or whatever your nationality was before becoming Israeli.
Sure, happened to me plenty. Most assume anyone who isn’t frum from birth (which I am not) doesn’t speak Yiddish. I however, learned German already as a child. Knowing German and Hebrew fluently, the jump to Yiddish isn’t all that difficult.
My favorite is the sgulah of how to make your hot tea cool down:
Read perek ??”? three times.
Then your tea is cold.
I have this one from (great)grandchildren of Rav Eliashiv ????”? so it’s a very reliable sgulah!
Just a wild guess –
“7 cervical bones + 12 thoracic + 5 sacral bones which compose the spinal column. which equals 24 plus the coccyx”
Now take out the cervicals:
“12 thoracic + 5 sacral bones which compose the spinal column. which equals 17 plus the coccyx”
And we have 18.
Now the only problem is the border between the cervical and thoracic vertebrae isn’t all that clear… and I doubt in ‘those times’ they knew/made that difference.
As the holy Admor of Creedmoor shlita says – it’s just a translation of “vehameivin yavin”.
@hershi – yes, people like me who request an ARLI declaration are, like any other immigrant, required to serve in the army. As I said, the same rights and obligations – except for the citizenship and voting for the Knesset.
@mdd – “when they say they are Jews and their state is Jewish, they mean ethnic Jews, for crying out!!!”
I fail to get the point… I really do. Can you explain why this has any relevance? Does that make any difference?
Now if they were to change their flag to something ‘neutral’ (ie, a completely new flag which is not ‘based on a tallis’ and not with a magen david in it), and to change the language to Arabic, German, French or English or so, and to change the citizenship laws and abandon the “Law of Return”, abandon any laws relating to shabbos or yom tov, completely separate state from religion (ie, abolish the Rabbanut and institute civil marriage), then, maybe, we could speak about this state being permitted even if its government would consist of 100% ethnic Jews. Then one could say it is simply a coincidence that 80% of the people in that country happen to be Jews.
But as long as the flag consists of symbols that are widely recognized as representative of Judaism, as long as they speak something resembling Hebrew, as long as any (descendent of a) Jew can immediately immigrate and get a passport, as long as shabbos and yom tov are somewhat slightly protected by laws, as long as the Rabbanut decides by law on who can marry who, this is, though completely wrong and false and improper and whatever else, widely recognized to be a “Jewish country”.
@AinOhvMilvado – “What ARE you talking about?
There are MANY zechuyot one receives as an oleh chadash.
Just speak to anyone who came with Nefesh B’Nefesh.
Why would you prefer to keep dutch citizenship to Israel citizenship?!?”
Apparently you didn’t read what I wrote.
This way, one receives all duties and benefits of an oleh chadash. All the subsidies, sal klita, benefits – everything.
The only, single, difference is that you don’t get Israeli citizenship – instead, all you get is a teudat zehut. Meaning inside Israel you’re 100% like a citizen, no differences at all – except that you can’t vote for the Knesset. Once you go outside of Israel you’re back to being whatever nationality you actually are.
Again, as I wrote, this is how just about everyone from The Netherlands and several other European countries does it. Now it could be this arrangement is only possible for people from those specific countries.
And as for why I wouldn’t want to give up my Dutch citizenship? Well, for the simple fact that after spending many years (working fulltime!) in Israel I was completely out of money and in heavy debts, even though I was working 43 hours per week. Since I couldn’t find any better jobs in Israel, and also because I intend to perhaps continue my studies at some point and in Europe I can get a ~ $1300 per month subsidy from the Dutch government to study in Europe, I decided to move back to Europe.
Found a job in the UK, my wife found a job as well, and now our income has doubled in comparison to a year ago and we are finally managing a decent life and to pay off our debts.
I’m able to live and work in the UK because I am a Dutch citizen – that’s the European Union: free movement of people. I can legally live and work in any European country, from the UK to Greece and from Finland to Portugal, anywhere in between. So can my wife, even though she herself isn’t a EU citizen.
If I had given up my Dutch citizenship when immigrating to Israel, I would probably be begging for tzedokoh in the streets now in Israel. In the best case, I’d be living with my mother-in-law now.
Trust me – giving up your ‘other’ citizenship in exchange for Israeli citizenship is the WORST possible mistake one could possibly make. For Americans, Canadians and many others it is not a concern since those countries allow dual citizenship. But for many Europeans it is a very real issue. Luckily I have never met anyone who was silly enough to actually accept Israeli citizenship and lose his EU citizenship.
oops
Human Nature Experiment Project #00002 – still in progress.
(9 months later)
I’m quite sure you can.
Immigrants from many European countries do it as a matter of principle, almost. The thing is, several European countries (including, I believe, The Netherlands, Germany, and Switzerland) have laws forbidding dual citizenship.
If I, upon immigrating to Israel, would have accepted Israeli citizenship, I would immediately and automatically have lost my Dutch citizenship (the Israeli authorities would notify the Dutch authorities per agreement between them).
Therefore, Israel has come up with a way to allow people from these countries to immigrate without having to give up their European citizenship. We get a ‘teudat zehut’ with permanent resident status, we get all rights and duties of a citizen, except: 1) we are not citizens; 2) we therefore don’t have an Israeli passport; 3) we can’t vote for the Knesset, and if I remember correctly, we cannot be elected to the Knesset and cannot serve as army officers or as judges.
The procedure is called by the name of the document you get to confirm it: “ARLI” standing for
????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ???????
I think… might be wrong. It’s “Confirmation of non-acquisition of Israeli citizenship”.
If a Dutch / German / Swiss citizen does NOT get this ARLI document upon registering as ‘oleh chadash’ at Misrad HaPnim (when you get the Teudat Zehut) – or it might have been at Natbag, or at Misrad HaKlita; I don’t remember, it was so long ago – they would automatically lose their European citizenship.
Of the tens of Dutch immigrants I have met in Israel, I know none (0,0), even the dati leumim, who accepted Israeli nationality and gave up their Dutch nationality. It just doesn’t provide you with any benefits and you stand to lose much more than you gain.
Now as for you… The question is whether Israel allows anyone to do this, get a regular Teudat Zehut while not acquiring citizenship with an ARLI declaration. For that, you’ll need to approach, I suppose, either or multiple of: 1) the Jewish Agency, 2) the Israeli embassy, 3) Misrad HaPnim, 4) Misrad HaKlita.
@Health, ymb – I support you and I agree with you, however there is NO point in continuing this discussion.
@mdd – I’d rather say “almost nobody else” held or holds like Rav Kook and his side. By the way, your comparison to Russia is completely off, since Russia is not ruled by Jews and doesn’t claim to be a “Jewish” state!
Indeed.
In the meantime we should focus on those things we DO agree on – such as shabbos, kashrus, and other non-controversial issues.
The worst part of it all is that there are people who do not want to speak to others, or, worse, impose on their children who they may speak and play with – based on “he’s Zionist” or “he’s against the Medinah”. Since when does THAT determine who we are?!
It is, in my eyes, certainly a very important topic. However, that which binds us together is, or at least, it SHOULD be, much stronger.
People like the NK extremists or the Zionist extremists who oppose them, forget this and live lifes of hatred.
@sushe – “Why would destruction of the soul be a greater punishment than eternal gehenim?”
If I remember correctly (didn’t read it for 2-3 years), the Ramchal explains that in fact that is the most severe punishment of all. One who gets eternal torture can still hope that at some point it will end. The worst punishment is to simply be gone, completely destroyed, gone.
It’s also a nice example of why revenge is a bad thing. You think of revenge. Now, granted, if I would have gotten the chance to see Hitler alive, I doubt *I* wouldn’t practice the worst possible types of revenge (I won’t describe what since I’d probably get banned for foul language). But still, according to our beliefs, revenge is a bad thing.
Gehinnom as we know it for us (up to a year) is to cleanse our souls from our aveiros, so that afterwards we are clean. It is *not* revenge – it is a just and fair punishment for the aveiros committed in our current lifes. Hashem doesn’t make any Jew go to gehinnom for revenge.
So, why should it be any different for goyim? As the Ramchal says, only the best of the goyim get any sort of olam habo at all (being our assistants and pupils then). The rest of goyim are simply destroyed.
I think I’m pretty much on track here – I’m quite confident of what I’m saying.
zahavasdad is completely right. Chabad is something else.
I’m addicted to food as well, particularly french fries and things like meat-substitute soy products, also chocolate, and other unhealthy things…
What I try to do is force myself to get at least an hour of daily exercise by walking a little more, and forcing myself to eat more fruit and vegetables. Particularly fruit. If there is one thing I love about the UK, it’s that Tesco sell blueberries all year round!
So instead of eating chocolate all day long, try some of these:
BERRIES:
* blueberries
* raspberries
* strawberries
* blackberries
LARGE FRUIT:
* all sorts of apples
* all sorts of clementines
* all sorts of oranges, incl (red) blood oranges
* pomelo
* (red) grapefruit
As for vegetables, just grab a can of some sort of beans instead of chocolate and other nonsense. Personally for example I am totally addicted to broad beans.
As for my weight, I’ll be honest and admit it’s not all that bad maybe: I weigh about 88 kg (194 lbs). However, just 3 years ago, I weighed about 65 kg (143 lbs)… My length is 180 cm (5 ft 10/11). So I gained quite a lot in recent years, and I am quite worried because it’s only getting worse still, noticeably so over the last year or so. I’m starting ever more to look like the (non-Jewish) natives…
I wonder whether the Iranians thought of that as well and will actually raise their level of alertness just another tiny little bit on Purim.
Would be funny, really. 🙂
When we got married I was davening nusach Maharitz and my wife nusach Ashkenaz. She started using Maharitz also then, however, since we moved to Gateshead, she switched back to Ashkenaz. The Rov said that is completely fine since pretty much everyone else in Gateshead uses Ashkenaz. (Besides, Maharitz is very close to Ashkenaz – much closer than Sfard, it’s halfway in between Ashkenaz and Sfard).
Avi K – “We can go on saying “yes it is”, “no it isn’t” until Mashiach comes. I suggest to that whoever decides these things should close this thread.”
That’s what I said 3 pages ago. Great to see you reached the same insight now as well.
Health – will you, please, come to the same conclusion? There is simply no point in continuing this discussion.
Didn’t see it (obviously), but I think it is a very good idea. I’m all for openness in showing the goyim who we are and how we live. Nothing negative in that. Helps to reduce anti-Semitism, reduce misunderstandings, increase respect.
Doesn’t have any negative impact on the children anyway – I mean, they see non-Jews on the streets and in the supermarkets as well, and on vacation, so there’s no argument there.
You forgot the Gateshead sems! And the Manchester sem(s).
I wondered about this as well. What is worse than gehinnom?
The Ramchal in Derech Hashem says there is something about souls simply being destroyed, just disappearing. He says very few Jews undergo this.
About goyim however, he says that some goyim, the particularly good ones who keep the mitzvos of goyim (and I personally assume most of the world would be included in that – for sure, I believe, sincere Muslims and Christians are, as are most law-abiding decent citizens of most countries) will receive some form of reward and will be serving us, with us teaching and guiding them.
He doesn’t mention explicitly what would be in store for the rest of the goyim. I assume the same as mentioned for the worst of Jews… Simply being destroyed, gone, disappeared, torn apart.
Queen Bee – actually, I have always much preferred to see girls without any form of make-up. I tried to convince my wife before our chassunah that she shouldn’t wear any make-up at the chassunah. I leave it up to you to figure out who won that argument… 🙂
Really, my view on make-up is rather simple. It consists of two simple facts:
* Ugly girls are ugly. Make-up won’t change that.
* Good-looking girls are good-looking. Make-up won’t change that.
Logical conclusion from that: make-up is completely pointless.
I’m well aware that mine is a minority opinion. I think make-up should be banned. The only purpose it serves is to make a person look ‘cheap’.
In Israel I have seen many, often American, borderline ‘yeshivish’ girls wearing so much make-up that in Amsterdam one would expect to find them working in the Red Light District. I think that is completely disgusting and it is a huge shame that any parent will allow their daughter to walk around like that.