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P.Yid,
As always, you “don’t have time to check now” when you’ve been proven wrong. Well the comment immediately preceding your last (the first on this page), which was posted simultaneously with your last, should disabuse you of your false notions.
P.Yid,
As always, you “don’t have time to check now” when you’ve been proven wrong. Well the comment immediately preceding your last (the first on this page), which was posted simultaneously with your last, should disabuse you of your false notions.
rabbiofberlin, Where, pray tell me, have you become privy to G-d’s deliberations? Who are you to declare someone evil? Who do you think you are to confidently (“guarantee” in your words) predict someones downfall? Refuah Shelamo!
blue_shirt:
PLEASE. Show me the sources. And yes frum sources. The fact that you had to mention that point, demonstrates where you are coming from. How could you even contemplate non-Jewish (read:anti-semitic) “sources”? You have NO SOURCES, since none exist!
lesschumras falsely claimed that:
“Our ancestors in the middle Ages and in Eastern Europe were ( except for the 1%
of taslmedai chachamim ) were ignorant peasants living on shtetls who could barely read the Aleph Bais. They stayed frum out of habit.”
Show me that:
1. “Our ancestors were ignorant peasants.”
2. “Our ancestors could barely read the Aleph Bais.”
3. “They stayed frum out of habit.” (i.e. Had they been “non-ignorant peasants” they surely would have “liberated” themselves and become nice frei goyim.
Per your offer, I (and others here) eagerly await your response with your sources. You cannot show me a reliable source for even ONE OF THESE THREE canards.
Morah Sarah: Thank You! (seriously.)
1) WOMEN SHOULD STAY INSIDE
(c) Poskim
1. Shulchan Aruch (73:1): A man must give his wife clothing like women normally wear outside. A woman should not go outside much. The beauty of a woman is to stay inside – “Kol Kevudah…”
i. Gra (4): Hash-m did not create Chavah from Adam’s foot, lest she roam too much (Bereishis Rabah 18:2). “Ishtecha k’Gefen Poriyah” is only when she is modest “b’Yarkesei Veisecha” (Medrash Tehilim 128:3).
(b) Rishonim
1. Rambam (Hilchos Ishus 13:11): A man must give his wife clothing like women normally wear outside in order that she can go to her father or a house of mourning or Simchah. She may go to these places to bestow Chesed to her friends and relatives, in order that they will come to her. She is not a prisoner who may not come and go. However, it is degrading for a woman to always be outside and on the streets. A man should prevent his wife from doing so. She should go outside once or twice a month, according to the need. The beauty of a woman is to stay inside – “Kol Kevudah Bas Melech Penimah”.
i. Source (Magid Mishneh): Bereishis Rabah (45:5) says that when the Torah discusses the detriment of women, it says that they go out – ‘Va’Tetzei Dinah”. The Sifri (Tetzei 242 (23)), regarding a Na’arah Me’orasah who was enticed to Zenus, says that a breach (going out in the city) calls to the thief. Bereishis Rabah (8:12) reads “Kivshuha” like ‘Kavshah’ to teach that a husband should prevent his wife from going out too much.
2. Rambam (Nedarim 12:11): If a woman vowed not to give water to her husband’s animals, he cannot annul it. A wife need not do this for her husband.
i. Kesef Mishneh: A wife must give straw to her husband’s animals, but she need not give water. This is because normally one leaves the house to go to the river or spring for this, and “Kol Kevudah…”
3. Rambam (Melachim 7:4): In Milchemes Mitzvah everyone goes to fight, even a Chasan from his room and a Kalah from her Chupah.
i. Radvaz: Women do not fight, due to “Kol Kevudah.” Rather, a Kalah leaves the Chupah, i.e. she forfeits the week of Sheva Berachos because her husband must go to fight. Alternatively, women supply water and food for their husbands, like Aravi women do nowadays.
ii. Sefer ha’Chinuch (Mitzvah 603): Women do not fight in war.
iii. Question (Minchas Chinuch): What is the source to exempt them? This is an Aseh that is not Zman Grama!
iv. Rambam (introduction to Sefer ha’Mitzvos DH v’Atah): Women are exempt from optional wars.
v. Rashash (Sotah 44b b’Mishnah): It is a Chidush that women go. Perhaps they go to prepare food for the men.
4. Rosh (Kesuvos 13:17): If a man married a woman from a city of the same quality as his own, even if he married her in his city we force him to live in her city. We learn from “Be’ulas Ba’al”… Another reason is because he can go to visit his friends, but she cannot, due to “Kol Kevudah.”
5. Rosh (Shevu’os 4:2): The Ri ha’Levi learns from our Gemara that we do not disgrace an honorable woman to go to Beis Din, due to “Kol Kevudah.” Rather, we send a Shali’ach of Beis Din to hear her claims. The Aruch and R. Chananel agree. The Ramban and Teshuvos of the Rif and Rav Sadya Gaon do not allow this. The Rif allows only that Beis Din send scribes to record her claim. The same applies to a Chacham for whom it is degrading to argue with Amei ha’Aretz in Beis Din; his honor is greater than a woman’s.
i. Teshuvos Maimoniyos (Mishpatim 5): The Gemara (Nazir 12a) says that women are Kevu’os due to “Kol Kevudah.”
(a) Gemara
1. (R. Yochanan): Avner told Do’eg ‘We learned that an Amoni and a Mo’avi are forbidden, but an Amonis and a Mo’avis are not!’
2. Question (Do’eg): If so, you should say that a Mitzri is forbidden, not a Mitzris!
3. Answer (Avner): Mo’avim are forbidden “Because they did not go out to greet you with bread and water.” This does not apply to women. It is normal for men to go out to greet, but not for women.
4. Objection (Do’eg): The men should have gone out to greet the men, and the women to greet the women!
5. Avner was silent.
6. Question: How can we answer?
7. Answer #1 (Chachamim of Bavel): “Kol Kevudah Vas Melech Penimah” (it is dishonorable for women to go outside, even to greet women).
8. Answer #2 (Chachamim of Eretz Yisrael): We learn this from ” … Where is your wife Sarah?” (It is praiseworthy that she stayed in the tent.)
9. (Beraisa – R. Yehudah): “Amoni” and “Mo’avi” are forbidden, not Amonis and Mo’avis;
10. R. Shimon says, “Because they did not go out …” – it is the way of a man …
11. Nazir 12a (R. Yochanan): If Reuven made a Shali’ach to be Mekadesh an unspecified woman and the agent died, Reuven may not marry any woman (Leah), lest the Shali’ach was Mekadesh Leah’s relative to Reuven.
12. Question (Reish Lakish): When a Hekdesh bird flies away, we are not concerned about other birds (lest it is the Hekdesh bird; we follow the majority. The same should apply here (most women are not Leah’s relatives)!
13. Answer (R. Yochanan): Because woman do not roam, the Safek is considered Kavu’a (fixed), so we don’t follow the majority.
14. Sotah 44b (Mishnah): In a war that is a Mitzvah, everyone goes to fight, even a Chasan from his room and a Kalah from the bridal canopy.
15. Gitin 12a (Beraisa): If a wife was exiled to a refuge city, her husband must feed her. He can tell her to feed herself from her earnings only if she earns enough to feed herself.
16. Question: If she can earn enough, this is obvious!
17. Answer: One might have thought that due to “Kol Kevudah…”, she need not work and he must feed her. The Beraisa teaches that this is not so.
18. Shevu’os 30a – Question: What is the source that (women are invalid witnesses, so) Shevu’as ha’Edus does not apply to women?
19. Answer (Beraisa): “V’Omdu Shnei ha’Anashim” refers to the witnesses.
20. Question: Perhaps it refers to the parties in the case!
21. Answer #1: The Torah would not say “men”, for women also need to come for judgment.
22. Answer #2: If you prefer, you can learn from “Shnei” (masculine).
23. Question: What objection might one have to the first answer?
24. Answer: Normally women do not come to Beis Din for judgment (rather, they send a man to plead their case), due to “Kol Kevudah…”
BERLIN: …cont
shu”a: “tzivu chaza”l shelo yilmad adam es bito torah mipnei sherov hanashim ein da’atan michuvanos l’hislamed u’motzios divrei torah l’divrei havai l’phi anius da’atan,amru chaza”l kol hamilamed es bito torah k’ilu milamda tiflus (now pay attention to this part,please) bameh divorim amurim torah she’bal peh aval torah she’bicsav…”.
And as attested to by the Gr”a (sham,os 24) and Chid”a in Birkei Yosef (sham,os 7) we pasken like R’Eliezer [and R’Yehoshua] as stated in the Ramba”m (hilchos talmud torah perek 1 halacha 13) and the Tur.
BERLIN:
Re: woman cannot learn Gemorah, please see Maseches Sotah Daf 21b on top, and Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah siman 246 sif 6.
Now I understand where lesschumras is nebech coming from. Only he could make such a boneheaded false statement on Jewish history.
P.Yid said “since the movement was headed by someone who was at least as big a godol as Rav Belsky.”
What is your logic to make that claim that Rav Belsky is, if anything, a smaller Gadol? I’d say Rav Belsky is “at least as big a godol.”
Any income a married woman earns, halachicly belongs to her husband.
azi,
At first look after reading your diatribe, I was going to right you are an apikoirus and feivel should refrain from furthering any discussion with you. But upon further reelection I realized you nebech are just an uninformed am haaretz and perhaps there is still hope for your redemption.
CantorEsq:
My point isn’t the one instructions to one student. Any number of factors could have been involved. Perhaps he foresaw that this particular student if he went to secular America would lose his religion, and better for him to risk losing his life than risk losing his soul.
You made the clear insinuation that many Rabbis prevented many people who had the ability, means and authorization (i.e. exit and entry visas) to leave Europe from doing so. Answer this if you will: How many and which Rabbis prevented Jews (with the ability, means and authorization to leave Europe) from doing so? On what scale? With what means? And how do you determine that these people otherwise had the will to leave Europe AND had the aforementioned ability? Which country/countries were willing to accept MASS number of Jewish refugees? Even if every Jew in Europe wanted to escape, where could all those Jews have gone to?
I’d like to see evidence of that claim, since I know none exists.
catoresq: who are you but a little pipsqueak and dust at his feet to condemn, or speak in in condemnatory tones, about R. Elchanan Wasserman ztk”l? You and rabbiofberlin originally posted as if the Rabbonim of Europe prevented masses of people who had the ability of escaping, from escaping. When asked for examples, after hemming and hawing, you could come up with one purported Rav advising one purported talmid in one purported instance. And when asked for a source? “A famous letter.”
Without even addressing the veracity of your Rav Elchanon claim, all you have is one purported letter advising one purported student not to emigrate? And with that you slandered many Rabbonim?
P.S. About your comment above, you are incorrect. Vrba was in Budapest. (He in fact hand delivered his report to Kastner.)
rabbiofberlin,
Perhaps did the thought occur to you that Matisyahu is not a full-time YW commentor like youself, since oh perhaps he has a job, learns Torah and has family matters to settle? B’H, you seem to be retired and can expend your entire day on YW and even berate people for not responding to you in the time you allotted to them.
BTW those Yeshivos you mention, ask any of them, any they will advise you that they are ANTI-zionist. But keep using their names in your arguments supporting zionism, since you’ve ran out of any other arguments.
Pashuteh, I’m sorry you believe the CIA killed JFK. I cannot help you. I see that YOUR son (like rabbiofberlin’s) moved away from your viewpoints, another obvious proof klal yisroel is moving in the RIGHT direction (away from modern liberal zionism).
The Torah learning in Eretz Yisroel is DESPITE the attempted interferences by the medinah. As far as money, many Yeshivos refuse it. Those that do accept it, pay more in taxes than they take in funding. Even they would benefit from breaking their financial relationship with the medina (both ways).
cantoresq,
Which Rabbi(‘s) advised anyone who had the means to leave (visa, available transportation, etc.), not to leave Europe? And on what scale (wholesale, individual)? Specifics, times, and sources please. (Especially sources.)
Since you made such scurrilous allegations, I would expect you already have this information.
You are a tzadekes. Such evil people, as your ex-boss, deserve only scorn.
As long as one follows Rambam mentioned in this post, they are on safe ground.
tichels are a maaila over sheitels. Everyone holds they are tznius, unlike shteitels. (Not to impugn sheitels, c’v).
But the sheitels designed to make it impossible to relaize it isn’t her real hair, is a complete violation of tznius.
Whoever told that to your wife must’ve been a zoina.
Berlin, I never said anything about girls learning Gemorah. So get your facts straight (something you are demonstrably unable to do in this matter as in other matters… tsk tsk)
Pashut, Kastner is merely an example of the full Zionist enterprise being complicit and in collaboration with the Nazis ym’s.
cantor, You (and Berlin, but he always ends it with a disclaimer “but I’m not charging them with this chet” after charging them) keep blaming the Rabbis for telling the Jews not to leave Europe and therefore being responsible for their deaths. (See Rav Hutner ZTL’s response to that in the extensive quotes from Gedolim a few pages back.)
Refuting Anna Porter’s defense of Rudolf Kastner:
Berliner,
Reb Elchonon Wasserman ZT”L, a talmid muvek of the Chofetz Chaim, in his sefer Kovetz Mamorim quotes the Chofetz Chaim as saying the Zionists are the offspring of Amalek.
Rabbi Eliyahu Lopian, in the name of Rabbi Elchanah Wasserman quoted the Chofetz Chaim about the importance of preparing for the final war of Gog and Magog:
I heard in London from the holy Rabbi Elchanan Wasserman, quoting the Chofetz Chaim, that Chazal say the War of Gog and Magog will be threefold. After the First World War, the Chofetz Chaim said that this was the first battle of Gog and Magog, and in about twenty-five years time (1942) there would be a second world war, which would make the first one seem insignificant, and then there would be a third battle . . . Rav Elchanan concluded that one must suffer the pangs of Moshiach, but the wise man will quietly prepare himself during that time . . . perhaps he will be worthy of seeing the comforting of Tzion and Yerushalayim. (Leiv Eliyahu, Shemos, page 172)
The Chofetz Chaim himself spoke about the arrival of the redemption, and points out the need to demand it:
Several times a day we request redemption, but requesting is not enough. We must DEMAND redemption, just as a worker demands his salary. For, the halachah is that if he does not, his employer need not pay him that day. (Commentary on the Siddur, section 168)
And cantoresq, fully granted Eichmann is a Nazi ym’s. But what he says a) corroborates what others say and proof indicates AND b) what purpose has he to lie at that point? Kastner was already dead and he was THE MOST intimate player in this matter (he dealt personally and directly with Kastner). I think that interview (on top of the last page) is very telling.
Why has Israeli “democracy” feared the truth and felt compelled to ban Perfidy and confiscate any copies it could get its dirty hands on, for decades?
“Academic research” is the liberal and Zionists age-old method of attempting to suppress and or change the “truth” to their liking. Anything that does not fit their story line, is deemed “non-academic”, “non-historic”, “unverifiable”, and “not research worthy” (or “unresearched.”) Repeating their lies over and over is the other trick they pull out of their hat. Suppressing any evidence not their liking is their strong-armed tactic.
Actually cantoresq, it would be far more appropriate for you to direct your attacks on the Rabbis on a site called Reform World, rather than Yeshiva World. What position are you in to be critical of them? Do you consider yourself to be a greater man than them? And you have been far more invective against them than the slight you suffered here. You have gone so far as to insinuate that they are complicit to murder.
This is a quote from Rudolf Vrba, who escaped Auschwitz and reported what was happening there to Kastner:
I am a Jew. In spite of that, indeed because of that, I accuse certain Jewish leaders of one of the most ghastly deeds of the war. This small group of quislings knew what was happening to their brethren in Hitler’s gas chambers and bought their own lives with the price of silence. Among them was Dr. Kasztner, leader of the council which spoke for all Jews in Hungary. While I was prisoner number 44070 at Auschwitz – the number is still on my arm – I compiled careful statistics of the exterminations . . . I took these terrible statistics with me when I escaped in 1944 and I was able to give Hungarian Zionist leaders three weeks notice that Eichmann planned to send a million of their Jews to his gas chambers . . . Kasztner went to Eichmann and told him, ‘I know of your plans; spare some Jews of my choice and I shall keep quiet.’ Eichmann not only agreed, but dressed Kasztner up in S.S. uniform and took him to Belsen to trace some of his friends. Nor did the sordid bargaining end there. Kasztner paid Eichmann several thousand dollars. With this little fortune, Eichmann was able to buy his way to freedom when Germany collapsed, to set himself up in the Argentine . . .
________________
This is a quote from the ruling by Israeli Judge Halevi against Kastner:
It is clear that the positive recommendation by Kastner, not only in his own name but also in the name of the Jewish Agency and the Jewish World Congress was of decisive importance for [Nazi Col. Kurt]
(The Judge also found Kastner guilty of “selling his soul to the devil”, the devil being Eichmann and the deal Kastner struck with Eichmann allowing Eichmann to easily deport Hungarian Jewry to Auschwitz without resistance.)
cantor,
From your description of Rav Hillel Lichenstein, one can easily surmise that he was a Torah giant indeed.
After all, anyone YOU consider “mentally ill”, must’ve done a lot of things right.
catoresq, Here is a free copy of Perfidy: http://www.hirhome.com/israel/perfidy.pdf
mariner,
I specifically differentiated between those (false) breakoff’s (who I identified as meshuganas) and the true R’ Amrom Blau ZTV’L’s N.K. The breakoff’s were thrown out of Satmar (those that originally were Satmar). So don’t besmirch Satmar with those meshuganas. The Satmar Rebbe always refused to participate in anti-zionist activities with any Arabs. In fact, at least once, the Rebbe called off a protest in front of the Israeli counsel in NY when he found out Arabs were planning to “join” the protest, since he wanted nothing to do with the Arabs.
As far as the current matzif, the Rebbe never advocated giving up the State to the Arabs, in as much as a mamzir is not killed. He felt once the zionists did their dirty deed (of establishing the medinah), it was up to the RBS’O to now fix the problem, not man, and he advocated no overthrow of the zionist regime in the holy land.
mariner,
The disagreement between say Brisk/Satmar/etc. and say the Agudah/etc. whether to participate in the Israeli government organs (i.e. the Kenesset) is a minor one, analogous perhaps to whether to daven sefard or ashkenaz. (Yes, Brisk/Satmar/etc. is vocal in opposition to voting and taking Israeli government money. But this is a minor issue in the grand scheme of things.) In principle they are in agreement in their opposition to (and Agudah/etc. IS officially opposed to) zionism.
cantoresq,
Kastner is well-documented in the book Perfidy by Ben Hechy (who incidentally was a zionist).
Just as Rebi Yochanon ben Zakki saved the Rabbonim in Yavneh, so too here Klal Yisroel needed malachim on the caliber of the Satmar Rebbe to be saved from destruction. The proof is in the pudding. The Satmar Rebbe single-handedly (along with Rav Ahron Kotler) made Torah in America to be what it is today.
According to your warped logic, the Satmar Rebbe should’ve “thanked” Adolf Eichmann for “saving” him. After all, Eichmann approved AND FULLY ARRANGED for the train to me made available for the trip to Switzerland. Without Eichmann, Kastner had nothing. So the logical conclusion of your drivel is that Eichmann is owed a hakoros hatov by the Rebbe.
Of course both Eichmann and Kastner were cold-blooded mass murderers. Whatever purported good either did, had only evil behind it. Kastner received the Vrba-Wetzler report before the Hungarian deportations began, but kept it secret from the Hungarian Jewish community, per his sweetheart agreement with Eichmann, in order not to imperil his sweetheart deal to save his own family’s skin and those of his chosen zionists. Eichmann and Kastner worked hand-in-hand with each others towards their mutual goals. This is who you demand be thanked?!
Like I said, I strongly suggest reading Perfidy, by Ben Hecht.
cross-post, but very relevant to this discussion:
* [The Torah] forbids us to strive for the reunion or possession of the land by any but spiritual means
Rabbi S. R. Hirsch
* Not via our desire did we leave the land of Israel, and not via our power will we come back to the land of Israel.
Rabbi S.D. Schneerson
* [Zionists] want a state in order to make Jews into heretics.
Rabbi C. Soloveichik
* The Zionists have attacked the center point of Judaism.
Rabbi V. Soloveichik
Once before the Neila prayer on Yom Kippur Rabbi Avraham Yoshe Freund of Mansod said:
“It is not because they are Zionists that they are evildoers. It is because they are evildoers that they are Zionists.”
Rabbi Aharon Roth once said:
“It is a miracle that these evildoers don’t command everyone to put on tefillin. It is possible that were they to do it, G-d forbid, it may be forbidden to put them on.”
The Chazon Ish once said:
“If it is hard to understand the whole matter of the Golden Calf, by seeing the matter of the State, one can understand it. The matter of the State is similar to the Golden Calf”
Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman once said:
“It is certain as the sun shines that the Land will vomit the Zionists out, because the Land is the Palace of the King….I don’t say this either to curse or to bless, but because these are things which are written in the Torah and which will take place.”
Rabbi Chaim Soloveitchik once said:
“The Zionists aren’t taking Jews away from Judaism in order to have a State, THEY NEED A STATE IN ORDER TO TAKE JEWS AWAY FROM JUDAISM”
Rabbi Yechezkel Shraga Halberstam once said:
“When a Jew recites ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord your G-d, the Lord is One’ he should have in mind rejecting all idolatry in the world, including Zionism, which is also idolatry.”
Rabbi Yissachar Dov of Belz once said:
” There could be, before the arrival of Mashiach, that the Satan should succeed, and the evildoers should get a State in the Land of Israel. Their state would be a big danger for every Jew in material and spiritual matters.”
The Chafetz Chaim, Rabbi Yisroel Meir Hakohen once said:
“In my opinion it is clear that the Zionists are from the offspring of AMALEK.”
Rabbi Yitzchak Zev Soloveitchik (Reb Velvel) once said:
“How can the little rabbis and heads of yeshivas take upon themselves the determination of things dealing with life and death? It is obvious that the partition will bring with it the anger and hostility of the Arabs and other nations of the world. This whole thing touches on the shedding of blood. HOW DO THEY HAVE THE ARROGANCE TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS DEALING WITH LIFE AND DEATH?
He also said:
“The Agudah is nothing, just money.”
Rabbi Moshe Leib Diskin once said:
“The rabbis of the generation should gather together and issue a writ of excommunication against the Zionists and eject them from the Jewish People, and make decrees against their bread and wine, and to forbid marrying with them, JUST LIKE OUR SAGES DID WITH THE SAMARITANS.”
Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Eherenreich once said:
“The Zionists brought us to the Holocaust. It is well known that it was possible to redeem Jews from the Nazis with money, and save many hundreds of thousands of Jews in Hungary from the fire. THE ZIONIST LEADERS WHO NOW SIT IN GOVERNMENT PREVENTED IT!”
Rabbi Shaul Brach of Kashoa once said:
“Before thinking up the idea of Zionism, Herzl wanted all Jews to convert to Christianity. When he was laughed at, he developed the second idea which was able to have more effect, since thousands of Jews began to believe they could be Jews without the Torah of Judaism.”
“I am also surprised at the leaders of the Agudah who want thousands of Jews to move to Eretz Israel. How can they ignore the welfare of their children, since there is no other place on earth where there is so much heresy and sectarianism as in the Holy Land in our day.”
**********
Reb Elchonon Wasserman, zt’l:
**********
Rabbi Avigdor Miller, zt’l:
In July 1938 President Roosevelt convened the Evian Conference to consider the problem of Jewish refugees. At that time a German offer was made to release Jews at $250 per person. The Jewish Agency, headed by Golda Meir, decided to ignore the offer.
At this conference, the delegation from the Jewish Agency made no effort to influence the United States or any of the 32 other participating nations to open their gates to admit German Jews.
769. It was because European Jews put their trust in atheistic Zionist leaders that these leaders everywhere became the lackeys of the Nazis in all the Ghettos. They were the machinery, which served efficiently in the task of keeping the Jews docile and of persuading and coercing them to be sent off to their deaths. No Torah leader ever cooperated with the Nazis in the destruction machinery.
**********
Rabbi Yitchok Hutner Z”L:
Sadly, even in our own circles, the mold for shaping public opinion lies in the hands of the State of Israel. An appropriate example of this dangerous process of selectively “rewriting” history may be found in the extraordinary purging from the public record of all evidence of the culpability of the forerunners of the State in the tragedy of European Jewry, and the sub-situation in is place of factors inconsequential to the calamity which ultimately occurred.
To cover its own contribution to the final catastrophic events, those of the State in a position to influence public opinion circulated the notorious canard that Gedolet Yisroel were responsible for the destruction of many communities because they did not urge immigration. This charge is, of course, a gross distortion of the truth, and need not be granted more dignity than it deserves by issuing a formal refutation. However, at the same time as the State made certain to include this charge as historical fact in every account of the war years, it successfully sought to omit any mention of its own contribution to the impending tragedy. While the State omitted in its own version of history is the second of the above-mentioned new directions in recent Jewish history. It is that phenomenon which we must now examine.
berlin: oddly enough I answered your query before you even posted it (see above), though it was approved by the moderator at the same time as yours.
Everyone is focusing on the second Rambam above. What about the first Rambam describing a wifes responsibilities is serving her husband?
I was at Rebbetzin Miller’s levaya yesterday and that is exactly how she served Rav Avigdor Miller!
cantor, it is also a statement of your hypocrisy that on one hand you harshly critique Rav Elchanan Wasserman for NOT saving his life in WWII, and criticize the Satmar Rebbe FOR saving his life. With your ilk the Rabbonim can do no right.
Without doubt you would’ve been the first to denounce Rebi Yochanon ben Zakki for his dealings with Vesapian vis-a-vis saving the Rabbonim at Yavneh.
rabbi, I think he meant why do you type “Jochanon” instead of “Yochanon”.
I said you sound like a rasha, not that you are one. How dare you criticize the saving of the Rabbonim! Saying “you will not charge them with this chet” is a critique of their being saved.
Now you imply that by being saved the Rabbonim killed people? That is sick.
cantoresq,
I’m unfamiliar with R. Esriel Hildesheimer or the Sridei Eish. My apologies for my unfamiliarity with every Rabbi of past and present.
The Satmar Rebbe’s talmidim purchased a train ticket out of Hungary from Kastner ym’s (much like Rebi Yochanan ben Zakki saved the Rabbonim in Yavneh through Vesapian), after Kastner sold the lives of 600,000 Hungarian Jews to Adolf Eichmann in exchange for his train. (Who aside from the tickets he sold for his profit, Kastner mainly filled with his family and Zionist friends.)
* [The Torah] forbids us to strive for the reunion or possession of the land by any but spiritual means
Rabbi S. R. Hirsch
* Not via our desire did we leave the land of Israel, and not via our power will we come back to the land of Israel.
Rabbi S.D. Schneerson
* [Zionists] want a state in order to make Jews into heretics.
Rabbi C. Soloveichik
* The Zionists have attacked the center point of Judaism.
Rabbi V. Soloveichik
Once before the Neila prayer on Yom Kippur Rabbi Avraham Yoshe Freund of Mansod said:
“It is not because they are Zionists that they are evildoers. It is because they are evildoers that they are Zionists.”
Rabbi Aharon Roth once said:
“It is a miracle that these evildoers don’t command everyone to put on tefillin. It is possible that were they to do it, G-d forbid, it may be forbidden to put them on.”
The Chazon Ish once said:
“If it is hard to understand the whole matter of the Golden Calf, by seeing the matter of the State, one can understand it. The matter of the State is similar to the Golden Calf”
Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman once said:
“It is certain as the sun shines that the Land will vomit the Zionists out, because the Land is the Palace of the King….I don’t say this either to curse or to bless, but because these are things which are written in the Torah and which will take place.”
Rabbi Chaim Soloveitchik once said:
“The Zionists aren’t taking Jews away from Judaism in order to have a State, THEY NEED A STATE IN ORDER TO TAKE JEWS AWAY FROM JUDAISM”
Rabbi Yechezkel Shraga Halberstam once said:
“When a Jew recites ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord your G-d, the Lord is One’ he should have in mind rejecting all idolatry in the world, including Zionism, which is also idolatry.”
Rabbi Yissachar Dov of Belz once said:
” There could be, before the arrival of Mashiach, that the Satan should succeed, and the evildoers should get a State in the Land of Israel. Their state would be a big danger for every Jew in material and spiritual matters.”
The Chafetz Chaim, Rabbi Israel Meir Hakohen once said:
“In my opinion it is clear that the Zionists are from the offspring of AMALEK.”
Rabbi Yitzchak Zev Soloveitchik (Reb Velvel) once said:
“How can the little rabbis and heads of yeshivas take upon themselves the determination of things dealing with life and death? It is obvious that the partition will bring with it the anger and hostility of the Arabs and other nations of the world. This whole thing touches on the shedding of blood. HOW DO THEY HAVE THE ARROGANCE TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS DEALING WITH LIFE AND DEATH?
He also said:
“The Agudah is nothing, just money.” Rabbi Moshe Leib Diskin once said: “The rabbis of the generation should gather together and issue a writ of excommunication against the Zionists and eject them from the Jewish People, and make decrees against their bread and wine, and to forbid marrying with them, JUST LIKE OUR SAGES DID WITH THE SAMARITANS.”
Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Eherenreich once said:
“The Zionists brought us to the Holocaust. It is well known that it was possible to redeem Jews from the Nazis with money, and save many hundreds of thousands of Jews in Hungary from the fire. THE ZIONIST LEADERS WHO NOW SIT IN GOVERNMENT PREVENTED IT!”
Rabbi Shaul Brach of Kashoa once said:
“Before thinking up the idea of Zionism, Herzl wanted all Jews to convert to Christianity. When he was laughed at, he developed the second idea which was able to have more effect, since thousands of Jews began to believe they could be Jews without the Torah of Judaism.”
“I am also surprised at the leaders of the Agudah who want thousands of Jews to move to Eretz Israel. How can they ignore the welfare of their children, since there is no other place on earth where there is so much heresy and sectarianism as in the Holy Land in our day.”
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Reb Elchonon Wasserman, zt’l:
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Rabbi Avigdor Miller, zt’l:
In July 1938 President Roosevelt convened the Evian Conference to consider the problem of Jewish refugees. At that time a German offer was made to release Jews at $250 per person. The Jewish Agency, headed by Golda Meir, decided to ignore the offer.
At this conference, the delegation from the Jewish Agency made no effort to influence the United States or any of the 32 other participating nations to open their gates to admit German Jews.
769. It was because European Jews put their trust in atheistic Zionist leaders that these leaders everywhere became the lackeys of the Nazis in all the Ghettos. They were the machinery, which served efficiently in the task of keeping the Jews docile and of persuading and coercing them to be sent off to their deaths. No Torah leader ever cooperated with the Nazis in the destruction machinery.
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Rabbi Yitchok Hutner Z”L:
Sadly, even in our own circles, the mold for shaping public opinion lies in the hands of the State of Israel. An appropriate example of this dangerous process of selectively “rewriting” history may be found in the extraordinary purging from the public record of all evidence of the culpability of the forerunners of the State in the tragedy of European Jewry, and the sub-situation in is place of factors inconsequential to the calamity which ultimately occurred.
To cover its own contribution to the final catastrophic events, those of the State in a position to influence public opinion circulated the notorious canard that Gedolet Yisroel were responsible for the destruction of many communities because they did not urge immigration. This charge is, of course, a gross distortion of the truth, and need not be granted more dignity than it deserves by issuing a formal refutation. However, at the same time as the State made certain to include this charge as historical fact in every account of the war years, it successfully sought to omit any mention of its own contribution to the impending tragedy. While the State omitted in its own version of history is the second of the above-mentioned new directions in recent Jewish history. It is that phenomenon which we must now examine.
Here is another part of what he said earlier:
Now, re; rav kook – it does not matter to me if you think he was a gadol; the consensus of EVERY other authority was that he was not, or rather, he was a huge talmid chacham, but went off with his zionism. The chofetz chaim held very little of him, as did the brisker rov, reb ahron, reb elchonon, the gerrer rebbe, the satmar rov, and a huge roster of people you know basically nothing of.
The reason on the online forums and blogs you get such a heavy dose of leftist apikorus, is simply because most of the true ehrlich yidden are not online, and if they are certainly are not in the blogs, so the folks that do populate the blogs represent no one but the far left/apikorus/non-ehrlich.
mariner:
Your comment is ridden with errors.
Above I was quoting Matis, not saying all that myself. (Matis provided more background in his original comment, including what Rav Elchanon ZTV’L said about Rabbi Kook.)
Neteurei Karta are from the Talmidei Hagra. They are not from the Satmar or an Chasidim for that matter. Hagoen Rav Amrom Blau ZTV’L though was close to the Satmar Rebbe ZTV’L. Your thoughts about them stem from ignorance.
I am very proud of the ads the Hisachdus puts out making clear to the umos haolam that Zionism is not Judaism. This has nothing to do with those meshuganas who falsely identify themselves today as being Neteurei Karta.
The reason that the Satmar Rebbe and the Litvishe Gedolim are accepted universally as Gedolim including by the Mizrachi, is simply because they are indisputably Gedolim. The Mizrachi has not produced anyone of the caliber of the Satmar Rebbe, Rav Shach, Rav Elchonan, Rav Elyashev, etc.
The Satmar Rebbe’s stand regarding the establishment of the medinah was not only the majority, it was almost the universal opinion held by Torah Judaism, including the Agudah and the Litvish Gedolim.
The “Chief Rabbi” of Eretz Yisroel was Hagoen Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld ZTV’L, not Rabbi Kook, despite his “title”.
cantor,
Matis has debunked that legend. Let me re-quote what he said (on page 3):
You want the gedolim to admit their mistake about the medina – this operates under the assumption that they were mistaken. I forgot of course, that you know more than them. forgive me. Please, tell me who is mistaken – a man who writes about how holy mechalel shabbos soccer players are, because they buy real estate for the sake of a nationalistic entity, which in the words of rav avigdor miller, was the worst thing to ever happen to the jewish people ever(the brisker rov said the same thing), or the entire spectrum of the frum world with the exception of one man who after making the wrong decision was denounced as a rasha and an apikores, at the very elast, by pinacles of shmiras halashon and ahavas yisroel. Rav Kook had no answers to the clear proofs against zionism that the religious zionists churned out – neither do you, and neither did rabbi zimmerman, lamm, rav soleveitchik, or anyone else – did you ever learn vayoel moshe? it should take care of whatever garbage ideas about zionism or the great avodah zara called the medina that you hold above the gedolim.
I wonder what you would say if rav kook was not a zionist…perhaps then, you would take the medina over all the gedolim, after all, acccording to rabbiofberlin-ism, we dont need to listen to the gedolim, but rather we must worship the mighty and holy mind, the individual thinker, the arrogant, secular thinker who thinks for himself(based on what his desires tell him)!
Also, for the record, rav kook would never have agreed with your ideas about emunas chachamim – he also, for the record, wanted women not to vote, and had tznius standards found in hardly any kehilos today, which Im sure you disagree with, being an independent thinker, however this does not stop religious zionist amharatzim from quoting him, without followinh him on his other shitos. They then, become tremendous, irrational machmirim when it comes to things like aliyah(a secular, nationalistic idea which rapes the idea of true yishuv haaretz by instead using it as a ploy to support the medina), and irrational, illogical maikilim when it comes to tznius and women’s ‘rights’, based on, for the record, no shitos(as in, there are no shitos that women can learn gemora, and certainly, rav kook never would have allowed such a thing)
Even though he was a huge talmid chacham; so was korach, and many other poeple who were mistaken. Reb elchonon called him an apikores, the satmar rov said it was assur to read his seforim; you want to follow that shita? well, research the machlokes, if there even was one, and you will see how wrong he was; except rav kook had far more respect for the gedolim than you, especially rav zonnefeld(perhaps the most anti-zionist in the old yishuv), even after the zionism issue.
You blindly follow rav kook – do you know what he based his shitos on? I doubt it. Because any halachik notion he and the entire mizrachi establishment have thought up have been successfully defeated, easily at that. This is because the soton works on emotions mostly, and not reason, so all you have to do is put the fear of holocuasts in a jw’s heart and you’ll have him belieing in the medina(which im sure, like your fellow zionist buddies, you’d ‘die for’, right?)
The odd thing is, most religious zionists will fall into two groups:
A) those who defame universally accepted gedolim, like the brisker rov, reb ahron, rav shach, reb elchonon, and many others who were anti-zionist, especially the satmar rov zt’l. They only defame him the most because he was the only one who wrote a comprehensive sefer on zionism, based on stories which are unverifiable, as well as quotations which are either non-existant or totally misunderstood.
B) when they realize they cant defame them, either because they have some conscious and cannot bring themselves to lie or spread slander, they then begin trying to make it seem like these gedolim were in fact zionists(i once heard on arutz sheva that they claimed that the satmar rov advocated zionism for goyim..feh)
C) ‘divrei elokim chaim’–ists – people who have enough sechel to acknowledge and respect such gedolim, and who say ‘well, we disagree with their shita , and instead we follow rav kook’
C is perhaps the dumbest of all, since the basic idea of eilu veilu, is that you cannot have that concept when one claims the other is wrong. Basically, this means that if Rov A says that rov B is an apikores, that is no longer eli veilu. This idea only works when one may be followed factually, but we say the other was right, because he used torah methodology to reach his conclusion, hence, even though he was factually wrong, he is still ‘right’ in the sense that his ideas were divine.
This is best shown in the gemora which has a shita that moshiach is not coming – obvbiously, we do not hold like this, and it is factually wrong, but it is still divrei elokim chaim, because it was derived through torah methodology.
Zionism, is different. It is a secular, idolatrous(in the words of reb elchonon) movement which some people misguidedly tried to make religious(also reb elchonon, they added religion to avodah zara), with faulty proofs from the torah and a lack of answers to the clear disproofs from the torah, then if a rov comes up with a shita, which the gerrer rebbe said came from ‘rav kook’s ahavas yisroel’, which howver is incorrect, then it is no longer eilu veilu, but simply wrong.
Please, read vayoel moshe – I can almost guarantee any tainah you have is in there, or if not, it is too elementary to even be dealt with by such an advanced sefer. Also recommended is kovetz ma’amarim by reb elchonon, and michtavim uma’amarim from rav shach.
ms. saythatagain, you are mistaken. See matisyahu28’s comment on the bottom of page 3 of this thread for additional information. Even Agudah was opposed to the establishment of the medinah, as was the vast vast majority of all of Torah Judaism.
color purple – If you see no problem with triangle kay, you must be from the crowd that accepts any food product with the letter kay printed somewhere on it.
Look at it this way. This site is purportedly kosher. And look what kind of non-Torahdik ideas are propagated here, all in the name of Judaism.
If this place is this bad, what place could be good?
Toras Moshe,
Those 2 Rambam’s are very interesting. Yasher Koach for the Divrei Torah!
(It sure gives us leverage when negotiating with our wives!)
Mayan_Dvash,
Even without power locks, the guy could pop all the locks open with the key from the drivers side. And the girl could then hop into the car after opening her own door.
mariner: just a quick note about your examples. Rav Yoel was in the majority (by far) regarding his position against the establishment of medinas yisroel. That position is the mainstay of torah judaism.
Also, the Hungarian Rabbonim (like Satmar) actually sat out of the Agudah and never joined it.
but berlin will not charge Rebi Yochanan Ben Zakai with this “chet”, so he must feel good about himself.
berlin:
You continue sounding like a first-class rasha talking like that. And it shows how contradictory you folks are. On another topic someone from your ilk (cantoresq) criticized R. Elchanan Wasserman for NOT escaping even though he could. And hear you criticize Rabbonim FOR escaping. With you guys, the Rabbonim are always wrong.
And who are you anyways to criticize the Rabbonim? (YOU of all people who attack anyone criticizing one of your idols!) And following-up your critique with “I will not charge anyone with this chet.” is meaningless. The Rabbonim were saved because Klal Yisroel needs Rabbonim.
Do you remember Yavneh? Reb Yochanan ben Zakai asked Vespasian to save the top leaders of Klal Yisroel even though he was destroying the other Yidden in Eretz Yisroel. I guess you must have questions of Reb Yochanan ben Zakai for saving their own skin while the Klal was being destroyed.
Why is it that almost every day when I open up the coffee room on YW do I find another crony talking about keeping halachos? Nothing is coming out of these topics. Let the people take care of themselves and do their part. And the men should make sure there wives and daughters follow with the halachos. Vzeh hu!
Again no good is coming out of this. So lets find something else to talk about… how about the weather? Enough with halachos!
BTW, just to be clear, my previous comment goes both ways. If a very frum girl sees that the guy opens the door for her, it will be the same response as above (obviously in reverse.)