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Sacrilege:
We realize the sarcasm. We joke about it all the time. Usually during a chuppa while the women are davening.
A better question is: What do they do now?
It doesn’t really matter anymore whose fault it was. They are married.
That said, I’ll discuss fault anyway.
It’s pretty clear the father and daughter are both idiots. The father deserves to be shot.
Also, how could this happen? Why was the girl willing to get engaged to someone with whom she was obviously not comfortable in confiding her basic life plan?
The guy is also at fault on this count, as he should have not gotten engaged if they weren’t talking honestly and openly.
Also, “What does this guys rosh yeshiva say?”
He says Shiur.
Yes. I don’t believe he promised anything.
mw13:
Fair point.
Why are we blaming the boy and criticizing him as “feeling entitled”?
It is not wrong to want to learn.
It is not wrong to want to eat.
Eating needs food; food needs money.
Now, there are three parties who can provide the money.
A. His parents
B. Her parents
C. Her.
If his parents are willing to provide the money, there is no further issue.
If not, and he still wants to learn, he looks for girls with means of support; either from parents of self.
Now, you are criticizing based on the claim that his parents should bear the burden as much as hers.
That is not the boy’s issue; it is his parents.
Parents are comprised of a combination of one man and one woman.
So women are equally to blame.
Now, if you wanted to take the boy to task for wanting to learn and not work, you are on worse ground.
The only girls affected by this are those who want a guy who will learn.
So in this issue, we do not need to assign blame since there is no victim.
So the boy is completely non-blameworthy.
Well, if
A. The problem really is new to the current generation, and,
B. We accept as a premise that people are born good and are then corrupted, and,
C. Since we are talking about kids, it is unfair to assign the majority of the blame to them,
Then:
It seems most logical that the people who are causing the problem are the current group of parents and leaders.
If so,
they don’t really deserve respect.
Moq:
I agree, that is the way to say it; it is a catch 22.
It is a very hard situation. We have tried to sweep all the issues under the couch, but it’s starting to get a bit crowded.
Ultimately, there will have to be a communal acceptance of the realities of our world.
I was about to reply, but I see you only want helpful replies.
What are you trying to say?
What is your first point,and what is your second point?
Was it a VBAC? (a regular birth after a cesarean- go google)
Does the doctor think that was related to the issue?
Did she curse out the doctor?
Did she sue?
Was the doctor negligent?
Helpful:
If you think he is going to reject you over toenail fungus, you probably shouldn’t get married to him.
a problem with public speaking
I was agreeing with you until you limited it to problems like public speaking.
My friend, who is “requiring” anything?
There are no rules.
I’m simply surprised at people who think that hiding one’s issues is a wise way to proceed in marriage.
Mod: There was nothing wrong with my post. Why don’t you add the word “emotionally” so the meaning is clear.
Moq:
If I understand correctly you are distinguishing between “issues” and “mental illness”
Perhaps you can go through the diagnosis manual and tell us which ones are issues and which are mental illness.
What is depression?
Lets say it’s mild?
What is OCD?
What is anxiety?
What is Anorexia? Or Bulimia?
Besides, I thought you were only suggesting people not tell until after they’re married. You are really suggesting to not tell ever.
EDITED
I don’t know.
What chessed organization would you like to start?
Whew am I glad I’m chasidish.
Yes, please tell us about the latitude young chasidim have in choosing how they want to live.
Tell us about the objective standards you don’t impose.
In the Catholic world, only men are allowed into seminary.
Women can become nuns, though,
If I gave my four year old a lulav, it would not be for chinuch purposes.
It would be to make him happy.
Accordingly, I would give him a lemon if I couldn’t get a really cheap esrog.
Are you sure you are doing it for chinuch? Is there such a chinuch for a four year old?
Popa is especially intrigued that in a discussion labeled “divorce crisis”, people are advocating keeping secrets from your proposed spouse.
Particularly since the area being discussed is one which is highly relevant to who you are and how you behave.
Boycotts against Israeli Officials and Diplomats.
Protests during events where Israeli Officials and Diplomats are invited.
Protesting against Israel?
What are you? Neturei Karta?
wikipedia
It takes two to tango is a common idiomatic expression which suggests something in which more than one person or other entity are paired in an inextricably-related and active manner, occasionally with negative connotations. The phrase recognizes that there are certain activities which cannot be achieved singly — like arguing, fighting,(…) dancing the tango.[1]
The tango is a dance which requires two partners moving in relation to each other, sometimes in tandem, sometimes in opposition.[2] The meaning of this expression has been extended to include any situation in which the two partners are by definition understood to be essential — as in, a marriage with only one partner ceases to be a marriage.
I’m not trying to correct you. I just like the real expression.
popa, Abusive people can be extremely charming when dating and before marriage.
I agree. Can be.
Again, I was not suggesting policy.
philosopher:
Again, I’m discussing only the aspect of abuse. (not changing your kids diaper is hardly spousal abuse.)
And we cannot bring evidence from other society’s. There are way too many other factors.
And there are plenty of warning signs you can pick up during dating.
And please nobody mention “research”. Research is as likely to out an abuser as McDonell is likely to win in Delaware. (Her chances are not 43%, that is how many would vote for her)
my friend:
I was only referring to this specific aspect.
I don’t know how dating longer would affect divorce rates overall.
And yes, if we want to take it to extreme, we could say that dating forever would lead to a divorce rate of zero.
(along with a similar marriage rate.)
Or taking your position to extreme, we could say that not even meeting once would be the best. Like Yitzchok did (Eliezer did the kiddushin as a shaliach).
need ideas:
There is no question that dating longer and more intensely is a precaution against getting an abusive spouse.
That said, there are other factors which also play into society’s decisions regarding how long to date.
Re: divorces caused by “abuse”
Every family lawyer advised women who come for a divorce, as the first step, to allege abuse against herself and the children.
You will want to take these allegations with a grain of suspicion.
yanky:
sorry, I posted my ridiculous posts before your post went up.
I wouldn’t have posted jokes immediately after you.
Wikipedia:
Mountainboarding
Mountainboarding, also known as Dirtboarding, Offroad Boarding, Grass Boarding, and All-Terrain Boarding (ATB), is a well established[1] if little-known extreme sport, derived from snowboarding. A mountainboard is made up of components including a deck, bindings to secure the rider to the deck, four wheels with pneumatic tires, and two steering mechanisms known as trucks. Mountainboarders, also known as riders, ride specifically designed boardercross tracks, slopestyle parks, grass hills, woodlands, gravel tracks, streets, skateparks, ski resorts, BMX courses and mountain bike trails. It is this ability to ride such a variety of terrain that makes mountainboarding different from other board sports.
Wikipedia:
Snowboarding
Snowboarding is a sport that involves descending a slope that is covered with snow on a snowboard attached to a rider’s feet using a special boot set onto mounted binding. The development of snowboarding was inspired by skateboarding, surfing and skiing. It was developed in the U.S.A. in the 1960s and the 1970s and became a Winter Olympic Sport in 1998.
[1]
This doesn’t take “brutal honesty”.
Brutal honesty would be required to decide why we judge ourselves.
(That sounded good. If anyone figures out what it means, please post.)
I am familiar with the letters of which you speak. I have a mark twain compilation that included letters and random articles.
My favorite is the one where he makes fun of James Fenimore Cooper. He goes through a story of his to show how absurd the parts are and how inconsistent. There is also a list of the words he misused.
I subsequently read that book by Cooper, but couldn’t enjoy it.
mod 80:
I agreed with your assessment.
I was reading pirkei d’rav elazar. (Maybe during mussaf on rosh hashana?)
R’ elazar ben horkinus was raised as an am haaretz. But he wanted to learn Torah. He thought it was too late; he was 28 according to this braisah.
One day he was plowing a rocky field and realized, if a plow can soften this ground, I can learn Torah. So he sat down and cried and didn’t eat and eventually ran away to R’ Yochanan ben Zachai to learn. The story continues that he didn’t even know Shema.
My thought was that if he knew nothing, and obviously wasn’t really keeping mitzvos, since he didn’t know Shema, how could he have so wanted to learn Torah?
He didn’t even know what Torah is!
I’m not sure how to explain it, but it is apparent that humans are capable of very pure emotions which I would have thought were just delusions.
The first lesson is not to be so suspicious of others’ emotions.
The better lesson is not to be so suspicious of your own good emotions. (Or at least to be suspicious that it is pure also.)
Moq:
I just read your post on page 1.
Excellent.
aidel:
I think I can agree with your latest post.
I think that was the point I was trying to make that the amount of dates is really secondary to the other social issues.
I happen to conclude that there is therefore no reason to encourage one society’s methods over another’s, since importing the dating method without the society would not lead to similar results.
wow! thanks the beginning.
you better not be one of my brothers. (they all know my username. one of them posted to me once and told me weeks later.)
Well, I’ll tell you how your babysitter does it. She turns on the gas on the stove without lighting the fire.
Yes, I know of such an incident.
No, you don’t know if your babysitter does it.
aidle:
the reply to you was real.
My YWN personality exhibits signs of Dis-associative Identity Disorder. (a definite psul in shidduchim- although it is thought by many experts to not even exist)
I think Popa bar abba was widely endorsed. He’s a “write in” candidate.
I’m saying that if we tell people when boys are no good, there will be less “good” boys available to marry.
cherrybim!
Do you want to add to the shidduch crisis? If these boys are not perfect, there will be even less perfect boys.
asf:
I assume they ask their rabbonim what violates yichud.
also, that is hardly negia, let alone “etc.”
besides for this i find that couples that date or “oiver” on so many aveiros in regards to yichud, negiah… etc.
You find? Just what findings do you have to justify that statement?
Mosherose;
tzippi is absolutely correct.
We are supposed to be nice to people because that we are supposed to actually care about people.
If you care about people, of course you will be nice to non-jews also.
Seems to me that in your system, we are nice to Jews because it is a “mitzva”.
This is a perversion of the purpose of the Torah, which is intended to perfect us, not to create artificial standards.
Also, I don’t need your “mitzvos”. If you don’t care about me, I’d rather you just be nasty
aidle:
There are many factors which would need to go into a study on the relationship between dating length and divorce.
To do an accurate study, you would need two groups who were the same in hashkafa, social pressures, upbringing, and all sorts of other things. (This is impossible.)
A comparison to chassidim is therefore disingenuous since their hashakafa and society is different.
Likewise a story about a couple who dated for 6 months, since they were either relatively modern, or had some serious issues to work through. (If the latter, we can speculate on why they got divorced)
You are asking what is permitted, or what has the best benefits and job security?
SJS
It seems to me that most of the virulence on this topic is coming from women .
The strange emotions women have regarding others dress has been commented on in previous threads.
Before you go about rebuking people, think about all the times somebody rebuked you and it had a positive effect.
I can’t think of any! I must be a real big rasha!
Rebuking people, especially strangers does not usually have positive effects.
america:
Check out this thread. Use it.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/changing-username
(845) 362-8362
http://www.ohrreuven.com/index.php
I think a phone call could answer most of your questions.