“PAA, excellent question. I haven’t denied, per se, the possibility that society, rather than individuals, are at fault.”

And I haven’t denied that individuals are at fault. It’s a combination of societal values plus insensitive people.

“How can we possibly agree with the anger expressed by someone who has a totally different value system regarding marriage!”

If you are talking about the secular colleague then I agree that we shouldn’t agree with her way of expressing anger, because she was disparaging the entire society. What I am doing is pointing out that there is a specific problem in that the way our society portrays women is such that if a woman is older and unmarried she may feel bad/pitied/worthless etc. Now I don’t know if there is a simple answer or even any answer at all. My suggestion is that without focusing less on marriage, we should also focus on other things which can help a woman feel good about herself regardless of what stage of life she is in. Also, I am not saying that anyone is at fault for not teaching girls Gemara. I will try to clarify my point about that: in the other thread I was simply pointing out several things which I perceive to be less than perfect in regards to women in Judaism. I suggested that if women would learn Gemara it might alleviate some of these issues. I was saying that in that thread to explain some of the possible reasons why people nowadays would be pro women learning Gemara besides for the desire for equality. When I quoted that here, it was not to say that learning gemara would help the situation here; I was simply using the same type of argument – that there is a dearth of things which women are led to feel accomplished about outside of marriage. It could be that learning gemara would help the situation here; it could be it won’t. And it could be that there are overriding reasons for girls not to learn gemara. But I was not connecting that to shidduchim.

DaasYochid:

Just to clarify whether we are we are disagreeing and to what extent: Do you agree that society is partly at fault for causing single women to feel this way, but you just think that the way it should be addressed is by the individuals changing (singles working on their self-worth and insensitives working on their sensitivity) or do you think that society is not to blame at all?

“PAA, there are plenty of opportunities for single women to accomplish great things without horving over a Rashb”a, and as I said, the impetus is not on society to shift its focus away from marriage.”

I didn’t say that society should shift away from focus on marriage. What it should do is also focus on other things so that the people who aren’t married feel like they are doing something worthwhile. If society never acknowledges the great things that single women can accomplish then some of them (because obviously there will be those like Syag who can deal with it) won’t feel good about themselves. Learning is just one example of something that might give them fulfillment.

If they weren’t following the Torah why haven’t they crossed the river on Shabbos?

“Now can you please solve the tuition crises?”

Sure. Eliminate all the girls schools since they have no need to learn and take all the money that used to go to girls schools and redirect it to boys schools. No more crisis.

It’s a machlokes in the Mishna in Sanhedrin (110b) whether they will come back. Although according to some interpretations that’s not what the Mishnah is discussing.

“If someone didn’t know how to learn, would he “have a right” to be angry at frum society for valuing talmud Torah?”

He would have a right to be angry at frum society for the manifestation of the value in such a way that someone who is lacking it feels worthless. For instance it would be much better for said person if while pedestalizing talmud torah, they would also pedestalize something else such as chessed (albeit maybe not to the same extent) that those who can’t learn Torah can do. But very often the way society portrays its values (which I agree are important and good values) is in such a way as to make everything else seem unimportant in comparison. I don’t think the letter writer is blaming society for valuing marriage/family. She is blaming society for the way it emphasizes these things to the point that it appears as if someone who lacks these things is an object deservant of pity.

DaasYochid:

We seem to agree that societal priorities/expectations/values, can sow the seeds which allow insensitive people to be insensitive in his regard. I think we also agree that those societal priorities/expectations/values are a good thing and it is unfortunate that they may have unintended consequences. We also agree that efforts should be made to “prevent” the insensitive people from being insensitive. So where do we argue?

I’m saying that the letter writer has the right to direct some of her frustration at society because (despite the fact that it is doing something good) without it she would not feel bad. You seem to hold that she shouldn’t direct any anger/blame at society.

The Medrash says ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???????. That does not necessarily translate into “Listen to her because she is a neviah” and it certainly doesn’t say that in the passuk which was all I had said. All the more so according to the Yefei Toar’s pshat that the medrash doesn’t even mean that Sarah had a greater level of nevuah.

The individuals say or do insensitive things because of the societal factors. For instance, if society placed no emphasis whatsoever on having a family, I don’t think there would be any insensitive comments/actions. NOw as I said before, it might be inevitable, but that doesn’t ease the pain of the one suffering.

DaasYochid:

Your point is true but I don’t see how it negates or addresses the point of the letter writer. The fact is older singles are sometimes made to feel like second class citizens, whether intentionally or not, whether it is an inevitable consequence of certain priorities or not.

The Maharsha in Berachos (10a) asks how you can daven for someone to do teshuva if yiras shamayim is not biday shamayim. He grants that you can daven for yourself to do teshuva because that falls under ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? and ????? ???? ??????? ??. He concludes with “v’yesh l’yasheiv.” The Orchos Tzadikim writes in Sha’ar Hateshuva ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ???? which would be consistent with the Maharsha, but in Sha’ar Hasimcha he writes ?????? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ????? so he clearly holds that you can (and in fact should) daven for others to do teshuva.

Maybe I need a crash course in emoticon use as I seem to be really out of my element here. What is the hashtag reference?

“but if you don’t mind, no comment about whether there was any truth to it.”

So not an outright denial. I never would have even thought of such a possibility.

DaasYochid, were you joking or are you actually a Chofetz Chaim guy?

“calling PAA to the room”

Wow. I am extremely flattered.

As for R’ Margolios, I don’t claim to know that much about his seforim, although I have seen it posited that he utilizes a somewhat academic style. The only one of his seforim that I have ever really used is his commentary on Shulchan Aruch and all I can say about that is that his bekius is astounding. And it has a haskama from R’ Kook, which might answer the original question.

What are knights?

Did I forget to press send on my last comment, or are you trying to prevent me from exposing you as Mr. Laughing Moderator?

I never disputed that. In fact I can bring you several additional sources about that. Maybe one of these days I’ll start a thread promoting Iyun. My other thread is not saying that you shouldn’t learn iyun (well maybe it is for some types of iyun); it is talking about the prioritization of first gaining a breadth of Torah knowledge.