Do you love food or do you have an unhealthy relationship with food ? I don’t want to start a discussion whether the program is “kosher” or not, but diets just don’t work for those who have the latter problem. “OA”, in one form or another – only solution.

R’ Yakov Kaminetzky suggests that the presents is also copied from us (though perhaps he meant from our giving gelt).

Another example: R’ Akiva Eiger in beginnning of Hilchos Tefilah – we no longer daven with our arms raised, because they copied us.

I would imagine the issue is doing avodas Hashem in a way that looks like them, even if they copied. Does anyone have such examples which we didn’t stop ?

Other things would just be a question of “bechukosayhem”, which depends mainly on motive, as was pointed out above from R’ Moshe.

DY –

of course, I understood he was doing that, but that is not relevant to the discussion of pinpointing the problem in communities where it is a problem.

I understand the logic of the age gap, just am not convinced of its ramifications. For example, from what i understand, the concept of girls marrying younger is not an historical anomaly, so I wonder whats changed.

I agree – my suggestions as well would in no way serve as a comprehensive solution. I was just pointing out that if I were totally convinced that the age gap problem is whats its made out to be, and since it doesn’t seem feasible to ever close it, that means we are forced to the logical conclusion that X% off girls are doomed. I don’t know how I’d sleep at night if I thought we were facing that. (not that that proves anything, just pointing out what the ramifications of the age gap theory really are)

MP – thank you,and thanks for the welcome!

I absolutely agree. The sifrei mussar caution against “too much, too fast”, because the overload can cause the opposite reaction than intended, by triggering feelings of rebellion and resentment.

Alei Shur cautions against making kabbalos in the externals, without really feeling the inner need in your avodah.

uh-huh. sure. everyone’s in pizza stores and who-knows-where-else cuz they haven’t found a shiur they like…

offering a shiur to “our kinderlach” who want to hang out is really gonna work… maybe we should try to understand our kids, and legitimize their want/need to relax and spend some time having fun. Then they’d be open to suggestions like oomis’, like kosher alternatives.

“(or it’s a minisucle factor. since the vast vast majority of boys get married quickly adn don’t sit around waiting for next group of new girls.)”

true – the 25 yr old girl doesn’t have many prospects, because most boys got married at 22-25. But if i’m right, we can minimize the amount of girls getting to that point in the first place.

If the age gap is a rea; problem, we can basically give up now – we will never have boys in the market at 19, the gap will never be closed.

az-

i fail to see how chasiddeshe families factor into the equation. We are discussing the crisis within a community where my logic does hold true. You want to change that – go right ahead and try. But the way things stand, what I said is a big factor in widening the gap – the fact is the older boys keep on dating 19-20 yr olds. Go to Lkwd and ask a guy a couple of months out of the freezer whats up with his dating, you’ll often hear how he exhausted the more “attractive” offers he had, and hopes to receive more from the “fresh” girls…

This is from the Ohr Someyach, Hilchos Talmud Torah.

The difference may be subtle, but it can have an enormous effect on your attitude towards your obligations – If we realize that our personal difficulties with our obligations will not only be taken into account at Judgement Day, but that Hashem originally, in the Torah, only asked of me what He feels I can do today, we would act differently.

This is also a thought which allows you to have regret, but not guilt – After all, today that I must do Teshuvah, this is what He wants from me now – what He wanted yesterday is irrelevant!

I’m working here with the premise that your being honest, not just bashing yourself as a way of making a point (though you’re certainly doing that as well!)

az, daasyochid –

If indeed there is an age gap, then the only true solution is really closing it. That having been said, I still believe it could be alleviated.

The common age gap idea is based on “shidduch island” – more 19 yr. old girls entering shidduchim than 22 yr. old boys. I think there are other factors as well: Even with 50/50 entering, the boys have an advantage. As they get older, more girls enter shidduchim, and they can marry them as well. As a girl gets older, her prospects only get slimmer. My idea would help this specific cause of the ga, because:

1)I know many terrific older singles, but lets face it: A gorgeous, rich etc. etc. girl has a better chance of geting the guys to look at her despite her age. Evening out the field would marry off more girls who dont “have everyhting going for them”, and the others will still get looked at, giving more prospects to older singles

2)Boys will be less confident of their advantage, and not always think they can “wait around for next years batch”, and therefore more girls will get married before the new ones hit the market.

cantoesq – and if you feel its nothing more than “party line” standards, then yes, you have no moral obligation to help.

I would like to post an idea about the “shidduch crisis” I don’t believe is much discussed.

The assumption seems to be that if there really is an age gap, any measure taken that does not narrow the gap cannot help much.

I suggest:

It is in the hands of Shadchanim to redt shidduchim as they please. If we simply took away the advantages the boys have today, the field would be evened out considerably.

If shidduchim were redt simultaneously to the boy and girl, suddenly girls too would have long lists. The girls would say more no’s, the boy would no longer be so confident to say no, and he would begin to have more realistic expectations. This would give girls who used to sit and wait for dates, more of an oppurtunity.

Also: With an even playing field, many more girls with “less attractive” resumes would get married earlier, some who do have those “qualities” would be around longer – and an older girl with looks, money, and all other “important” qualities definitely have an easier time to keep on getting dates.