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PAA: As I told you in that conversation and I’ll repeat again. Not all roshei yeshivos are equal.
Yosi7: Torah Shebksav is taught in Beis Yaakovs.
I’m not the one making a claim; I’m the one asking for evidence.
Chassidic? I said they’re dating not beshowing. Among Yeshivish girls many, and likely most, don’t compare prospective guys and choose whose more attractive to her before their first date, as you suggested. You’re simply making up new parameters because you’re afraid to address the question as is. So you skirt. But that’s fine, as I said.
Does simply answering this make you uneasy?: If someone redt an ethnic Nigerian guy with an Afro hair to date your daughter and at a later time someone else redt an ethnic European to date your daughter, all other things being equal, would you be more reluctant or slower to pass on the first shidduch proposals than the second?
The kids here want their parents to do everything they do (that I mentioned) for their shidduch search. This is the real-world scenario in many frum families. There are more Orthodox families that handle shidduchim as I described (more or less) than how you feel it should be done (with the type of input from the child excluding the parental involvement mentioned.)
Anyways, this is all besides the point. If your imagination is too close minded to accept or role play such a scenario, then you don’t have to participate in this exercise.
Call R’ Rakeffet and ask him for her male pseudonym. These stories typically turn out like a fifth hand telephone wire, where she edited for spelling and typos and the like and then she mentioned to someone she found a greater error than a simple typo so she fact checked and corrected things sometimes. That guy passes on she added stuff to articles. The next guy passes on she wrote articles. There’s probably a few more steps in between those. But the people passing on these type of stories (after the telephone wire got through it) are ones with agendas promoting the idea the story gives post-modification.
If this were true it should be provable. Let’s see the Telz Yeshiva Torah journals with her articles. Or at least a reference, i.e. Adar 5696 issue, page 7, under the pseudonym of Chaim Yankel Lichtenstein discussing wearing techeiles.
Show me some samples from these supposed publications of Telz with her chiddushei haTorah and what her male pseudonym was.
Like the Rashi’s daughters wearing Tefilin myth.
All the involved families, including the boys and girl, are against pictures in shidduchim.
I would take the veracity of that and such claims with more than a grain of salt.
Wolf: She won’t know how either looks until and unless she dates him. (There are no shidduch pictures as many families eschew them as inappropriate.) Many frum families use a traditional shidduch process where the parents do almost all of the legwork and the child will not date anyone not recommended by her parents. In the not distant past, for millenia, often the parents themselves would select a shidduch for their children with the child at most simply giving a yes or no when first meeting the mate. (And yes was the norm having reliance and trust in their parents.) Nowadays the paradigm has shifted but nevertheless in the frummer families the shidduch process is still parent-focused.
In any event, this is a bit off topic as the parameters are what I mentioned above whether you “would argue” the child should be providing more input or not.
Wolf: The daughter doesn’t know more than the parents know and she trusts her parents to do all the research, eliminate unsuitable candidates and recommend suitable candidates.
I think the non-voters only don’t vote in national elections but vote in municipal elections.
Thank you. You’re sending your daughter out on a date with the ethnic Nigerian over the ethnic Lithuanian in the above scenario.
Any other takers?
DY: An honest answer.
Avi K: In the above scenario both bachelors already said yes to go out with your daughter and agreed to remain available for her for a reasonable time for you to respond yea or nay. In short, you don’t have to worry about time and losing the dating possibility.
DY and all:
If you were redt a shidduch for your daughter of a guy similarly cultured as your daughter, born in the same country, born Jewish, FFB (parents or grandparents were converts), fully frum and is either seriously koveia itim or is seriously learning full time (depending whichever your daughter is looking for) and is a black man with an Afro hair (by nature not design) and you’re doing all your shidduch research on him and just as your about to finish your research (everything looks good) your redt another shidduch (by a different shadchan) of another guy [ready to go out] with all the same attributes as above except it’s a white yeshiva guy from a Lithuanian or Hungarian family background instead of the Nigerian background of Bochor One. In a nutshell, other than the ethnicity both are equal and Bochor Two has no other advantages. Do you send your daughter on a date with Bochor One or do you wait to see if Bochor Two is shayach?
And if the parents nix the proposal for the same reason but without raising a fuss, giving some generic it’s not a good match answer, I don’t see any aveiras mentioned in Shulchan Aruch being violated. (I believe you agreed when you earlier said “that it’s not assur”.)
I hold that Feivel is one of the Lamed Vov Tzadikim.
This is in Even HaEzer and Hilchos Ishus. What gives you the right to suggest this S”A and Rambam is merely Minhagei Chasidus? If you do this here you could throw out the entire S”A and Rambam by dismissing it as only Minhagei Chasidus. If you’re going to make this novel claim about a section of S”A and Rambam the least you’ll have to do it bring a halachic source claiming that rather than state it on your own authority.
Matan: Should we throw out Rambam because he lived in a different society? Rambam is bringing halachas (it’s called Hilchos Ishus), not societal customs of his era.
Matan: Unless you announce to them that you’re child’s not going to date/marry them because they’re Polish or black or whatever, I don’t see any violation of kavod habrios or derech eretz.
I said shtusim, you said wrong and you said racist. Whatever you call it, is there something in Shulchan Aruch that makes it an aveira or is just dumb?
Matan1: And if a parent says they won’t allow a shidduch for their child with a Hungarian or Polish Jew, what is that? Shtusim perhaps, but what source do you have that it is some kind of aveira? Saying only a white shidduch is in the same category as saying only a German or American shidduch or saying no shidduch with a Hungarian or Polish candidate.
The halacha is you give a person tzedaka according to their standards. If they need housing and he’s used to living in a mansion, you give him tzedaka to live in a mansion. If a mansion surely a nicer wedding.
The halacha in tzedaka is that you give the person enough tzedaka to live up to their standards. If a rich person loses his fortune and is left with more money than a regular person but less than his standards, the halacha is to give him tzedaka to bring his lifestyle back up to his standards.
DM: I already did.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kol-kevuda-bas-melech-penima#post-568554
Shulchan Aruch EH 73:1 (also Rambam Hilchos Ishus 13:11)
Sam: Since when has the Shulchan Aruch become a book of Minhag Chassidus? Can you cite other good ideas that the Shulchan Aruch brings down that are not halacha? Is the Rambam also a “Minhag Chasidus” in your eyes? This is a novel idea considering the Gedolim in the days of the Shulchan Aruch and shortly thereafter have agreed to accept the psakim of the mechaber and the Rema as authoritative. The Shach writes that one cannot even claim “kim li” against a psak of the Shulchan Aruch. This is akin to accepting someone as your “Rebbi”, where you follow his psakim. The same thing applies to accepting the Shulchan Aruch and Rema.
You keep telling people they’re misreading S”A and other poskim that you don’t like, but when asked for your “real” meaning you disappear without even trying to offer your alternative interpretation. Please tell us what the Mechaber “really” meant when he wrote in S”A that “A woman should not go outside much. The beauty of a woman is to stay inside – “Kol Kevudah Bas Melech Penima…”
DM: Just ask an mo rabbi about their mixed swimming. It’s closer to your neck of the woods.
How large of a following can the dayan have if most of the town is disregarding his admonishments that it is not permitted?
Sounds like the rabbinic overseers of the bonfire have a larger following in your community than the dayan you speak of.
Your mother is a born Jew and your father a Native American Ger?
PAA: Ah kasha oif ah maaisa. All I know is what R. Kahn said. But one of R. Kahn’s pointers was that he asked the family at the shiva about it and they, effectively, told him it was a bubbe maaisa.
P.S. Why did your post appear much later than later posts than yours? When that happens it is easy to miss the earlier comments.
DM: There are sources to the veracity of the story with Reb Moshe. See DY’s comment, for example:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rav-moshe-feinstein-chalav-stam-vomiting#post-563255
At the very least, I don’t see how having a desire to marry a white girl is any worse than a desire to marry a blonde girl.
You wake up Erev Shabbos… First weekday Shachris. Then weekday Mincha. Then Kabbolos Shabbos and Maariv for Shabbos. Then Shachris for Shabbos. Then Mincha for Shabbos.
The order seems logical.
Why don’t those who say la’omer when counting each night call it Lag La’Omer?
bump
gavra: If you don’t want to give tzedaka, no one’s putting a gun to your head and forcing you. Don’t begrudge other Yidden who are benevolent and charitable and desire to give their Jewish brothers money to make a respectable wedding, even if you think something more than a backyard turkey dinner is lavish. If someone else wants to give another Jew money to make a fancier wedding and support their child’s living arrangements, don’t begrudge or complain about him giving. He’s giving his own money not your money.
Alright mods, slightly edited.
From an April 2, ’15 New York Times article (easily googleable):
From a Daily Mail article partially titled “new trend for ‘cleansing reduction’ which involves bathing just once a week”:
* ‘Cleansing reduction’ means reducing showers to once or twice a week
* Benefits can include keeping good bugs which help fight disease intact
* Although showering less is fine, you need to regularly wash your hands
* Prince Harry once admitted he hadn’t washed his hair for two years
Daily showers could become a thing of the past, if a new beauty trend called ‘cleansing reduction’ takes off. Instead of bathing every day, proponents whittle their washing habits down to once or twice a week on the grounds that too much cleansing can strip the skin and hair of essential natural oils. While it might sound disgusting, it would seem that cleansing reduction is catching on, after a poll for tissue manufacturer, SCA, found that 41 per cent of British men and 33 per cent of women no longer shower every day. The poll also revealed that a filthy 12 per cent said that they indulge in a ‘proper wash’ just once a week…
Disgusting as it might sound, going for long periods without bathing is nothing new, according to Lancaster University sociologist, Dr Elizabeth Lancaster. According to Lancaster, daily showers are a relatively recent development and less than a century ago, a weekly bath would have been considered perfectly adequate. ‘Now we think nothing of showering once, twice or even three times a day, before and after work or going out and after the gym,’ she said in an interview with the Times. ‘It has embedded itself in our routine and become an essential, not an optional, thing to do.’…
Interestingly, a study conducted by the University of California found that too much washing can actually be bad for you, because it strips away beneficial bugs that the body uses to help ward off infections. ‘A vigorous daily shower would disturb the natural bug flora of the skin as well as skin oils,’ revealed John Oxford, Professor of Virology at Queen Mary’s School of Medicine and Dentistry… ‘Even twice a week would not be a problem if people used a bidet daily as most infectious bugs hang around our lower halves. ‘We pay too much attention to the body beautiful and smelling good, with perfumes for men and women,’ he added. ‘We should wash to stop cross-infection, not for grooming reasons.’
The Brisker Rov and Rav Shternbuch didn’t vote.
Sam: About the Legend of the Milkman, from R. Ari Kahn:
R. Lichtenstein never volunteered as a milkman and R. Lichtenstein and R. Gustman were very acquainted long before this story supposedly happened. They lived near each other in Crown Heights, R. Lichtenstein was well known, R. Gustman was a close friend of R. Lichtenstein’s Rosh Yeshiva Rav Hutner and R. Gustman was at the bar mitzvah of the son of R. Lichtenstein.
Tach V’Tat has been attributed by the Achronim to talking in shul.
apy: Rambam Hilchos Ishus 13:11 and Shulchan Aruch EH 73:1.
Apparently they were find without that all. It doesn’t mean it isn’t “better” to have all that now.
Anyways, the point was that showering once a week is enough. Today. It’s being done by many in California due to the current drought. And it’s done by many everywhere even where there is no drought.
That’s the halacha in the Rambam. The Shulchan Aruch paskens with this Rambam but when quoting it says she shouldn’t leave the house too much but leaves out the Rambam’s stated quantification of once or twice a month is okay.
“Mr. Cohen” or “Mrs. Berger” are fine.
quark2: How does someone have a “minhag not to be makpid” on a part of Shulchan Aruch?
Al pi halacha, if someone killed b’shogeg today what would be the halachic consequences?
In California, with the current drought, many are showering once a week. That is sufficient for most people. It’s also what was common before running water – and our zaidas were fine.
Thanks for the bump, DM! 🙂