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My wife is a redhead! ( and we’ve been married 37 years !!! )
Joseph,
Once again, you intentionally miss the point and sieze on a minor comment to deflect attention away from the fact that you have no answer to his real point.
you said ” cantoresq, The Torah runs without cash. I have no idea (nor care) what you mean by that, but can assure you our Yeshivos and Talmedei Chachomim have thrived in poverty more so than in wealth. “
You did not address his point. Unlike in today’s world where the wealth of donors and the funding by the Israeli government have allowed unprecednted numbers to live a kollel life, poverty in Europe never allowed more than the cream of the crop live that kind of life.
When I was in yeshiva, you had men in their 30’s and 40’s taking out their frusration at their low salaries ( when they were paid at all. They were often months behind ) on boys of 8 ,9 and 10. Thank Hashem I was never hit but I saw friends get punched, kicked and slapped. Did it inspire fear? Absolutely. Did it inspire love of learning and respect? Absolutely not. Another problem with hitting is the effect eventually wears off and you have to escalate. The best reebes that I had, had no need to hit. The worst ones resorted to hitting.
In addition to what Pasheteh Yid said, don’t skimp on the shoes,gedt the best ones that your budget will allow. In terms of support and sjock absorption, your knees and joints will thank you.
In terms of where you run, I agree that parks and roads in the country are more inresting, but are harder ( concrete and asphalt ) are hard on the knees. Boardwalks ( in the winter when there are no bathers walking around ) with their wood surface and ocean views are great.
Joseph,
If you are going by boots on the ground, the secular and non religious seem to have won out. Frum Jews have made up less than 20% worldwide for a long time. While the vast majority of that 80% have no background, their parents and grandparenrs in Europe and elsewhere were brought up frum ( and that frumkeit in Europe was not MO, it was chassidish and charedi ) and walked away from it. The war between the Litaks and the Chassidim in Europe didn’t stop until they came to the realization that as they were fighting each other for the soul of Yiddishkeit, that soul was shrinking dramatically as they were losing more and more Yidden to the secular world.
I don’t understand why it makes a difference to you whether a person is MO, Chassidish, or Chareidi or whether one is Zionist or not. Noone is going to have their minds changed through these polemics. All it does is call alot of namecalling from both sides.If I may take the liberty of stepping into your shoes, I would direct my efforts toward outreach to the unaffiliated. Chareidut continues to grow because their large families. As Cantoresq said, the current unprecdented level of kollel participation has been fueled in the US and in Israel by the unprecedented level of wealth in the US. What happens when the current generation that is bankrolling it passes on? The downfall of Lehman and Bear Sterns did not help.
cantoresq
You’ve hit the nail squarely on the head. I’ve couldn’t have said any better. There can never be any serious discussion with Joseph since, as you stated so clearly, he starts from the premise that there is no legitimate path other than chareidut. He at times states his point more eloquently that others on this blog, but the point is always the same.
to formerly ujm,
I don’t blame you wanting to be less modern. It would be extremely hypocritical of me to deny you the freedom of choice I desire for myself. As long as we are both doing our thing al pi halacha and according to our respective Rav I feel the same as you.
Have a good Shabbos
to The Big One and UJM,
“And why do you demand they have less chumras? And who are YOU to so demand? Answer: attack, attack, attack (when your ideas are failing.) “
Sigh!! My posts to this stream emphasize that we are all entitled to our halachacly based ( whether that Rav be Chareidi,Chassidish, Yeshivish or Modern Orthodox ) opinions. To Big One, I’ve not attacked your right to observe chumrahs, nor have I demanded anything of you. My screen name implies that just as you have the right to observe more chumrahs, I have the right to observe fewer chumrahs. The more or fewer number of chumrahs we observe is a matter of personal ( halachacly-based ) choice and both are correct, in what works best for you. Why is it necessary for both the Big One and ujm to make it personal by assuming it’s an attack or, as in ujm’s case, attacking MO?
Joseph,
One last point. Let’s say, for the purposes of this discussion only, that the points in your post were correct. You would still have to answer how that justifies why you felt you could not just respond to the Gedolim comment, but had to denigrate non-chareidi gedolim ( by placing “” around the word ) and bringing Reform/Conservative Jews into the conversation for the purpose of puttinh them down.
Nobody has the authority to pasken anonomously for anyone else. All shayles should be directed to your Rav.
Joseph,
Please stop using demagoguery yourself and, as noted above, please stop denigrating those yidden whom you disapprove of, ss noted in your post above.above.
Joseph,
In addition, my screen name merely states my position, it is not condescending . It does not say “It is similar to how now the “fill in the blank ” have co-opted various chumrahs , and have their own “chumrahs”, and the like. Its obvious they feel less Jewish unless they too can have chumrahs” . My screen name does not belittle anybody.
Joseph,
Just as you are entitled to your view on chumrahs, I am entitled to mine. In the future, I would appreciate that you stop making a mockery of my name ( i.e lesstorah ).
It is childish and brings down the level and tone of these discussions.
Joseph,
It’s ironic that in a stream that deals with respect for others ,comments that you make continue to exhibit disdain for others on a personal level. You have your definition of a Godol and you are entitled to it. You are even entitled to disagree with cantoresq. But when you express it as follows ” I noticed lately that every sub-group feels left out unless they take the top 10% of their Rabbis and declare them to be “gedolim.” Otherwise how could they compete with the universally acknowledged Gedolim, who happen to be from outside their hashkofos” you are being condescending resorting to putting down others in order to make yourself feel better. Unless you are a psychiatrist or psychologist, please leave the psychoanalysis to others and not resort to belittling other yidden. Thank you.
Joseph,
If what you say is true, then which hospital do you use, who picks up your garbage, what bus do you ride? If it’s assur to “give” to the state, shouldn’t it be assur to take as well? What is the basis for chareidim participating in the political process?
Joseph,
It is Elul. No need to be sarcastic
Feif Un, you can be a nation and not have a country. That was one of the breaks that Reform made with Orthodoxy in the early 1800’s in Germany. They claimed to be Germans of the Hebrew faith, and not a nation aspiring to return to Israel. That’s why they called their synsgogues Temples; they said Berlin was their Jerusalem.
I think what Torahis1 meant to say is that when someone like veimloachshuv makes a value judgement as to what “go against our holy torah in any which way ” exactly means,
it results in him going after someone ” darf men mocha zein in full force ” it results in inappropriate responses. Everyone is entitled to thier opinion as long as they are following a proper ( whether it be Chareidi, Yeshivish, Chassidish or MO ) Rav and their psak and everyone is entitled to disagree respevtfully.
The problem with the above comments is that it usually applied to someone with different opinions or who relies on different psak halochas. It also, as has been done to me by one particular poster, means that a posting name should not be used and modified into an object of derision
Keep in mind,he created this “great” example because he was a hit and run driver. All he had to do was copy down the license number or leave his name and number on the windshield.
“Re Rabbi Yisroel:
How long ago did your rebbe say this? I know that at the turn of and into the 20th century there were organizations for young men and women who were committed to Shabbos to socialize, but that was such a different world then. Every 15 – 20 year cycle has its challenges and I wonder if this was said in a way that would definitely be applicable now”
Small request. If this site does not accept “it was a differnt world then ” in order to eliminate a chumra, then it shouldn’t be acceptable in reverse.
Joseph,
“Our ancestors in the middle Ages and in Eastern Europe were ( except for the 1%
of taslmedai chachamim ) were ignorant peasants living on shtetls who could barely read the Aleph Bais.”
These are your words that I asked you to source:
1. “Our ancestors were ignorant peasants.”
2. “Our ancestors could barely read the Aleph Bais.”
3. “They stayed frum out of habit.”
4. that ONLY 1% of those ignorant peasant ancestors of ours were “talmedai chachamim”
As I stated in my response and quoation from Aish’s website, The Jews of
Eastern Europe were left destitute ,depressed and religiously exhausted
after the series of pogroms and false messiahs. The educated elite were
not concerned. What Chassiddus offered to the masses is what made it
so poewerful and attractive and why the misnagdim fougt it so. Wher is
your proof that ” som jews joined a movement”?
Once given the chance, why did so many yidden leave frumkeit. Again, I don’t understand your logic.
I’m required to bring documentation, which you don’t believe and won’t
believe because it upsets your idealized world view. You also ddn’t adress my pointr that the reason the Gemara spends entitr masecjtas on how to deal with false
witnesses, people who cheat in business is because we are human beings, not perfect.If you want to believe It’s typical that you still refuse to back up your claims that I am wrong because you obviously can’t. You demand proof from others but will not do so yourself.
I’m done. There is no use talking to a wall.
5. “Once the civil restrictions were removed and Jews could live in the cities, the removal of the shtetl peer pressure meant that THE JEWS BY HABIT GAVE UP THEIR FRUMKEIT.”
You answered and documented none of these malicious and false allegations.
So please NUMERICALLY respond to each of these 5 questions separately.
It is obvious you cannot since it is rubbish
Joseph,
You obviously believe the best defense is a good offense. You’ve deftly avoided proving any of your points by ignoring and/or dismissing my points and proofs and labeling them as false. You clealy refuse to believe anything that upsets your world viewpoint. Once again, any facts to support YOUR charges? I’m still waiting.
Joseph,
Apparently you only see what you want to see in your fantasy world. If you want to believe that every Jew in prior generations were learned tzadikkim, there is nothing I can do. But, other than your protestations, you haven’t showed where I am wrong. When Napolean granted equality to Jews, the yeshivas emptied out. If they weren’t “frum out of habit ” why did so many European Jews leave frumkeit as soon as they had the chance?
And, the time period I am referring to in your quotes was in Europe. Can you show me yopur proof that only “some poor uneducated Jews joined a movement ” . If was only a few, why was the Vilna Gaon so concerned?
By the way, Zalman never did reply to my points re Jews worshipping idols ( as seen throughiut Neviim ), the Tzedukim, the Hellenizers, the Karaites etc )
Most people’s involvement in the Reform movement is largely limited to attendance perhaps one or two days a year at lasts only until the last child is either bar or bas mitzvah. Very few if any have any religious ( frum ) background.
to Joseph from Aish Hatorah( and once again, just because you say I brought a false accusation, doesn’t make it so. You allege I am wrong, well , document it.
by Rabbi Ken Spiro Initially a movement largely of the poor and uneducated, Hassidism introduced Kabbalah and spirituality into everyday life.
The Hassidic movement — the movement of the “pious ones” or Chassidut, in Hebrew — was founded in the 18th century in Eastern Europe by Rabbi Israel ben Eliezer, who became known as the Ba’al Shem Tov, which means “Master of the Good Name.” His teachings revolutionized the demoralized, persecuted Jews of Eastern Europe.
After the pogroms and massacres, (see Part 49), large parts of Eastern European Jewry had slipped into dire poverty. In addition to the tremendous physical destruction wrought by the Chmielnicki massacres, the tremendous disappointment caused by the false Messiah Shabbetai Tzvi (see Part 51) left much of the Jewish population of Eastern Europe in a collective state of deep depression. One of the victims of this situation was Jewish scholarship, with only an elite few studying in yeshivas while the rest eked out a meager living. As a result of the decrease in scholarship, Jewish religious life suffered — with the average Jew not connecting either intellectually or spiritually with God. And this is what the Ba’al Shem Tov sought to change.
THE OPPOSITION
Another significant concern of the Vilna Gaon was de-intellectualization of Torah. The Hassidic movement was largely a movement of simple, uneducated Jews, and he worried that Jewish scholarship was going to be replaced by singing and dancing. A religion that was a synthesis of heart and mind would become all heart and no mind.
Finally, the Vilna Gaon, and many other rabbis strongly objected to the fact that the Hassidim had changed the text of the prayer as this was considered a serious break with tradition and wholly unacceptable.
In hindsight we see that the Hassidic movement contributed significantly to the revitalization of Eastern European Jewry. It kept a lot of people connected to Judaism who could well have been lost because they didn’t have the time to study. And the pressure brought by the misnagdim against the hassidim acted as a brake in keeping them from going too far.
THE SPANISH INQUISITION
The Inquisition we are going to cover now is the Spanish Inquisition, which began officially by papal bull issued by Pope Sixtus IV on November 1, 1478.
Unlike its earlier version, the Spanish Inquisition sought to punish Jews who had converted to Christianity but were not really “sincere” in their conversions.
There was another reason for the Inquisition, which had little to do with the sincerity of conversions. Once Jews converted to Christianity they had an open access to the playing field, economically and politically. And, of course, they prospered mightily. That engendered a lot of hostility from the Christians – a pattern we have seen in Jewish history ever since the enslavement of the Israelites by the Egyptians.
The Christians began to call converted Jews “New Christians” to distinguish them from the “Old Christians” i.e. themselves. Derogatorily, Jewish converts to Christianity were called converses meaning “converts,” or worse yet marranos, meaning “pigs.”
The basic accusation was that these Jews were not real converts to Christianity – they were secretly practicing Judaism. That was certainly often the case. There were large numbers of Jews who would be outwardly Christian but who would continue to practice Judaism secretly.
Until this day, there exist Christian communities with clear Jewish roots dating back to this time. There are people in the United States (in New Mexico and Arizona) as well as in South and Central America, who are descended from Spanish or Portuguese settlers, and who have strange customs they cannot explain. For example, even though they are Catholics, on Friday night they go down to the cellar to light candles. They don’t know the origins of the custom, but they do it. These people are clearly descended from Jews who pretended to be Christians and yet were practicing Jewish rituals in secret.
Joseph and Zalman,
By the way, neither of you have provided any proof of your points of view, other than to say I’m wrong. With all due respect, just because you say so doesn’t make it so either. Artscroll is not acceptable proof.
Joseph,
The only reason the Chassidim and Misnagdim finally stopped fighting each other was because they realized that so many Jews were leaving both of them. I will provide the sources but they won’t be Artscroll.
Unfortunately, your argument would not hold up in an AMERICAN court of law. If a fellow Jew did it to me, that’s exactly where it would be tried.
At least Zalman didn’t deny that the Neviim, Tzedukim, Hellenizers and Karaites existed. Purim took place because our ancestors were out partying with Achashvarosh! Menashe, perhaps the most evil king in our history, ruled the longest and brought avodah zora into the Bais Hamikdash!The Gemorra describes, how in the times of the Bais Sheni, the office of Kohen Gadol was often sold to the highest bidder and the chachomim had to tutor them on their duties on Yom Kippur. Entire masechtas are devoted to issues of Jewish merchants defrauding each other (short weights, borrowing first quality oil/fruits/wine and paying back with lower quality etc). I’ll provide the Middle Ages sources for you. As far as conversions went, I didn’t say they were unhappy Jews, just ignorant. Conversion was never a real option unless you brought something of value to the church. As a rule, people who converted were lost in no man’s land, no longer accepted by their families, but also not trusted by the church. The Inquision was designed for this. One of our misconceptions is that it persecuted Jews. It actually couldn’t care less about Jews; it went after converted Jews who they viewed as potential heretics.
There is a community living in Italy that converted en masse centuries ago that Catholics still refuse to intermarry with. Once the civil restrictions were removed and Jews could live in the cities, the removal of the shtetl peer pressure meant that the Jews by habit gave up their frumkeit. There were many anecdotal stories of Jews flinging there talleisim and tefillin into New York Harbor during the great waves of immigration of the late 19th and early 20th century .
So Zalman, other than Artscroll, what are your sources?
Joseph,
Theft is theft. You live in this country and there are anti-piracy laws.
The letter write is only TWENTY years old!! I doubt that any 18 yr old ( the age she started shidduch dating ) is mature enough to know what she wants.
to tzippy,
by your standards , the following would be eliminated as a possible shidduch:
1. Avrohom – a baal tshuva who worked in the family idol business
2. Yitzchok – His half brother was Yishmael
3. Yaakov- Just one look at his twin Esav would have eliminated him
4. Moshe Rabeinu- Not only didn’t he sit and learn, he grew up in the
ultimate place of moral corruption, Pharoah’s palace ( and had an
Egyptian name, Moshe )
5. Rivka, Rachel and Leah – sister and daughters of an out and out
rasha.
Once a person is an adult, and his/her personality and character have been formed, judge them as themselves, not a reflection of their relatives.
to Goan Atzum. If that were the case, all they would have to do is convert!!
I’m amazed as to how many people havbe bought into the Artscroll dreamworld of the idyllic past generations. I realize that many boys yeshiva never study Neviim
but our ancestors were contantly being punished for worshipping idols ( real avoda zorah ). Any one ever hear of the Sadduccees, the Hellenizers, the Karaites?
Our ancestors in the middle Ages and in Eastern Europe were ( except for the 1%
of taslmedai chachamim ) were ignorant peasants living on shtetls who could barely read the Aleph Bais. They stayed frum out of habit. Under the church, you were either Catholic or Jewish, you couldn’t be nothing. Chassidus took hold because it told the masses that even though you couldn’t learn, you could come close tp Hashem thru singing. And, as soon as the ghettos opened, the vast majority of these jew by habit left the ghetto and never looked back.
You are stealing the intellectual proprty rights of the person who created it.
In fifth grade, I went up to my rebbe and privately said that I was able to make it thru half the davening with full kavanah. Instaed of offering chizuk, he publicly embarrassed me in front of the whole class for not davening the whole daven ing with kavanah. Guess how much kavanah I davened with the next day.
In high school ( in the 1960’s )as freshmen, many boys had questions, which were asked in a respectful manner. Our rebbeim, who came from pre-war Litvish yeshivas, could not imagine that boys in high school would have such questions and assumed we were being chutzpanik and responded in kind. After 4 years of this, many of the boys were barely frum.
One last comment, and with this I will end,
to Sarah:
My point is l’Shaim Shamaim. and I believe we can all learn a lesson from this posting. Too many people make assertions about MO,chareidim,chassidim etc based upon a limited amount of information or based upon personal experience.
People on this blog ( not Sarah ) are willing to be Dam L’kaf Zchus on accused child molesters; shouldn’t the same be extended to a poster who sounds sincere in his anguish in describing the emotional pain inflicted upon his wife?
This has nothing to do with chumras. It’s about accepting that this person’s experiences might be different than mine and that you’ve been zocheh not to have encountered this.
All the best
Sarah,
Isn’t calling the poster a liar motzei shem ra? Why was okay for you to do it? Isn’t he due an apology?
Sarah,
The fact that you choose to call the poster a liar rather than accept that someone in holy Lakewood could make that statement leads me to believe that it probably is true.
Joseph,
Cantoresq says that his father told him that they knew; how can you say that his father was not telling the truth?
I’m just wondering where the husband is. They should be sharing the household duties, particularly right after birth.
I was thinking of other types of inappropriate behaviour. I’ve worked in offices where women, who were obviously frum ( sheitels etc ) , and did not understand that answering e-mail, shopping on-line and making long distance phone calls on company time was stealing ( they were paid hourly ).
Can anyone show me where it is assur to be a mensch?
ujm,
if women stayed home and there was no welfare or Medicaid, who pays for kollel?
As someone posted in another thread, if the Baal Shem Tov lived in Texas, all the Chassidim would be walking around in cowboy boots and ten gallon hats.
I don’t believe I missed the boat. The kids are not in the right, but JoJo could have handled it better and shown the kids the right way to behave. He went to sit an an emppty seat at a table of 10-12 year olds. He didn’t ask if the seat was unoccupied ( for all he knew an adult was sitting there ) and was rather nasty in his response. I assume that if he went to wash or get some food, he would have no objection if another adult took the seat.
Too many parents bring there kids to shul and let them run around. The best example I’ve ever seen of a lack of derech eretz training by an adult happened to me 3 years ago on a Shabbos morning. I was standing while davening and suddenly felt something kicking my legs from behind. I turned and saw a 3-year old sitting in my seat. I looked at the father who proudly exlaimed he was teaching his son makom kavuah ( they had come in at the end of Pseukai Dezimrah) and I was sitting in his son’s seat!!
“My comparison to Kollel is regarding those who criticize Kollel. They criticize Kollel, with the litany of all the usual grievances that too many people go there, they don’t work, they don’t learn and whatever other baggage they try to dump on the holiest people in our nation. These will be the same crowds that tell you to mind your own business about tznius, that any pseudo-standards are more than sufficient, start yelling that tznius rules are like the Taliban, etc.”
Joseph,
Please do not generalize and apply your own grievances to a whole class of people. There are legitimate reasons to feel that there too many people in kollel who are there because of peer pressure and are dependent on the community for support ( either thru fundraising by the kollel or Medicaid ). As with most things, there is a bell curve in terms of abilities. I have no issue or problem in supporting those students in the top half. However, there are better uses for tzedaka ( and taxes )than supporting the C and D students who want to learn in kollel. I understand we disagree on this; it doesn’t mean we disagree on tznius ( except where you disagree with Think big , I agree with her )
to Think Big,
I agree with you. No two people are the same. If the music moves you to Hashem , listen to it, if it affects your neshama badly, then don’t. By the way, the assumption I’m making here is that regardless of the beat, it’s been adapted to Hebrew lyrics/themes.