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ThinkStraight, a groyse shkoyach for the chizuk.
Itzik, you make some very good points.
I am forced to disagree with you with what you term as achzarius.
This isn’t achzarius. This is a question of ikkarei ha’emuna as expressed by the Ramba”m. Hashem runs the world.
Let’s make the attack on me. Let’s say I get up and say, in an unforced manner, bifnei am va’eida, “They will understand and see- it’s J*s*s who runs this world”. What would you say? Would you defend me? Would you attack those who attack me as making political points?
I am still waiting for the statement you referenced to be retracted, and I’m still waiting for somebody from Lubavitch to publicly repudiate it and say “Hashem runs the world, ein od milvado”. I would be very happy if you would do so.
Thanks for looking it up, RabbiofBerlin. I have heard this shittah in the past, and there are indications both ways. So this idea isn’t one he made up. That said, due to my questions on it, and due to my love of ancient history, I’m highly interested in seeing it inside.
Itzik_s, you make a very valid point. Which is why English is just as good as Yiddish. I understood the drasha in Yiddish through a combination of the little I picked up in Yeshiva with my knowledge of lashon hakodesh. My friends who went to Eretz Yisroel to hear shiur from Rav Arieli told me that in a few weeks they understood all the Yiddish they needed to understand the shiur.
The “keep yiddish alive” idea made perfect sense when everyone in America was a first-generation or second-generation Yiddish speaker. English was a sign of assimilation. Those days are long gone. Just like the Chazon Ish allowed Ivrit to kids who spoke it naturally, English is perfectly allowed to kids who speak it naturally. English is not a choice of assimilation- it’s the mother tongue. Today’s kids have a hard enough time with 2 languages, Hebrew and English. Why throw up more barriers to chinuch.
It’s the same thing with shaving and wearing a short jacket. Once upon a time, not having a beard and wearing a short jacket (as opposed to a kapotta) were done for assimilation purposes. It was a statement of prikas ol. Nowadays, a Jew can shave and wear a short jacket without making a statement of prikas ol, which is why it’s permitted. Keeping yiddish alive is a nice idea, but it’s not a haclaha mefursemes. Chinuch habonim is a deorayseh mentioned in Krias Shma. It has to override “nice ideas”. The question is, should one who is already attached to learning learn Yiddish so he can attend shiurim in yiddish? For this the answer seems to be yes, as it allows one to learn more Torah. Should one give up a seder limud for a course in Yiddish? Hard to say. Ask your LOR.
I once asked my rav this question. As currently understood, marijuana is no more dangerous than drinking. Once legalized, it would lose much of its stigma. Other than dina demalchusa, no real problem with it. It’s definitely better than the machalah of smoking which has affected our community.
This was a theoretical question based on some well-publicized arrests, not a “lemaaseh” question. I don’t smoke or toke.
However, now that’s illegal, it acts as a gateway drug- once I broke the law with x, why not break the law with y? If x which was illegal is so good, then surely y which is illegal is even better. Furthermore, selective breeding has made today’s marijuana more potent.
I once heard #1 years ago in yeshiva, but it makes no sense. #2 makes sense- it’s one covering, and it protects your head from sweat.
Siman 90 in the shulchan aruch says that one should keep one’s head covered while davening. Siman 2 in the shulchan aruch says one should always keep his head covered. The Igros Moshe says that as long as your head isn’t “not covered”, then it’s covered. In other words, there is no minimum shiur for yarmulke. Some recent poskim say that the Igros moshe would admit that by davening, the head covering should cover most of a person’s head. The Mishna Brurah brings down the Chayei Adam that nowadays when we wear a hat in the street, we should wear one for davening. The Taz says that one should be “meutaf” in his tallis, ie completely wrapped in it, with his head covered by it. This is brought down by the Shlah and other kabbalah-oriented sources. We are mikayeim the Taz by Shma and shemonah esrei when we cover our heads with the Tallis.
In sum, 3 reasons to cover one’s head:
1. The rule that one should have his head covered by davening
2. The rule that one should wear a hat
3. The rule that one’s head should be covered in a tallis.
Two layers instead of one on a yarmulke has no bearing on any of the other 2 halachos. So I’ll go with “yeshivish shtus”. i heard it too. But it doesn’t pass the “sources” muster.
Joseph, I have mentioned many mekoros for saying that Lashon Hakodesh is holy, and Aramaic is holy. Since nowhere in Bavli, Yerushalmi, or the shulchan aruch is there a psak to speak Yiddish, there is no mekor to bring. The one mekor there is to bring is Rabbi Yehuda hanassi- either speak Lashon Hakodesh (holy) or Greek (profane for business)(Sotah 49b), not Aramaic. I highly doubt yiddish is on a higher level than Aramaic, although you try to give that impression.
Your svara that modern hebrew is like Turkish or Farsi, ie, lower than yiddish, is not sourced, and also patently false. Even non-Zionists and anti-Zionists can see that- it’s pshitta lechol bar bei rav dechad yoma, pardon the Aramaic (hamedaber aramis befarhesya, kanoim pogim bo) . A simple examination of the basic modern Hebrew (from a hayesod book, for example) with a basic concordantzia of Biblical Lashon hakodeh will reveal the truth. I’m aware you’re anti-zionist, but emes is emes. Lefi shitascha, Kol shekein- if Modern Hebrew, isn’t (according to you) holy, then kol shekein a Germanic tongue. the famous Nazi plane maker Messerschmitt has name meaning “knifesmith” in both German and Yiddish. Is it holy?
The Radak you mentioned is, I’m assuming, talking about pure Lashon haTorah. there is, however, a second Lashon Hakodesh, as the Rambam mentions- loshon chachomim. As in, “shanu chachomim belashon hamishna”. Judging by all the seforim in my local otzar seforim, I’d say that language is still quite alive and well. What language is the Avi Ezri written in? Not Yiddish, that’s for sure. I learned some shticklach from it during my yeshiva years, and it was in Lashon Hakodesh.
Ezra is a proof from before Churban Bayis sheini, when the Jews spoke Aramaic after their golus in Bavel. That, however, was never a machlokes. You are knocking down a straw man of your own making. During the zman bayis rishon, they clearly spoke Lashon hakodesh, unless you have another way of interpreting 2 Kings 18:26, which indicated quite clearly the Jews did not speak Aramaic during zman bayis rishon.
The Chassam Sofer you quoted (still waiting to look it up at my local otzar)doesn’t say they spoke yiddish. They spoke a modified version of the local tongue. Why that should only apply to Yiddish but not English is still not explained.
English with yeshivaspeak thrown in makes it as much as Yiddish, but without shterring anyone’s Limud Torah or possibilities for parnassah by not knowing English. A solid command of english is essential to get a job today. To say Rav shach ZT”L made a statement that applies in all cases, no matter if it shters limud hatorah (as the case of my cheder class clearly proved it does- you’re only “yotzei” if you understand, unless it’s lashon hakodesh), or if it causes people to be turned off from learning, is to make a mockery of Rav Shach ZT”L. The mitzvah is Torah, not Yiddish. Yiddish may be a nice addition, but it’s a tafful at most, (it’s a gornisht according to my Rebbe Muvhak ZT”L) not an ikkar. The mechaber never spoke yiddish. neither did Rabbi akiva or moshe Rabbeinu. I’m sure their olam haba isn’t lessened because of it.
I just got this dvar halacha sent to my mailbox today:
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Halacha: Can a Chazan use a Sweet Goyish Medley during Davening, for ex. Kedusha or Hallel, to Inspire the Congregation?
This is debated amongst the Poskim. Some maintain it is permissible (Yechav’e Da’as 2, 5), while others hold it is forbidden and even an abomination to use Goyish tunes for our Tefiilos (Tzitz Eliezer 13, 12; Vayashev Ha’Yam 1). All agree, however, that melodies which the Goyim play or sing in their houses of worship are forbidden to be used in our Shuls (see also L’horos Nosson 10, 14)
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One thing people here quote is the idea of “nitzotzos”, of holy sparks being reclaimed. Kabbalah also has the concept of “klipos”, or tumah that can never be kashered. No matter how many chumros you slaughter a pig with, it’s still treif. There is also some music that can never be kashered. As for the exact gedarim, it can’t be given. Simon and Garfunkel composed many heartfelt tunes from their Jewish neshamos. Does that make the tunes kosher? Is the music of Felix Mendelsohn automatically kosher even if written for a church? Banning much of today’s Jewish music is counterproductive,though, and as long as it’s not a veidas znus (like the Jewish concerts at treif nightclubs), it’s better to let it go.
You’re very welcome, Oomis.
Wow. I go away for a few days and this thread turns into a Zionism debate. The gedolim have clearly spoken on this one, and anyway it should be a new thread.
To review, there are multiple questions about yiddish being dealt with simultaneously:
1. Is Yiddish holy?
2. If it’s holy, why is it holy?
3. Does that reason also apply to English, at the same level or a lesser level?
4. If it also applies to English, even on a lesser level, does that difference make for a practical difference?
5. Should one teach children in Yiddish, either because it’s holy or because it enables one to hear shiurim in yiddish?
6. If yes, does this override other concerns like chanoch lenaar al pi darko, the mitzvah of limud torah Berabbim, etc?
Joseph, a groyse shkoyach and a blessing upon your head. 200 posts into the thread, a verifiable mekor for speaking in Yiddish is finally provided- a statement of Rav Shach ZT”L, universally held of by all the Tofsei Torah (the apikores who called him “Shach” to my face because of his views on a certain movement notwithstanding). Obviously, lo shamati bilti hayom. What is the source of this statement of Rav Shach ZT”L? The daughter of Reb Yaakov ZT”L said that 80 percent of the things said in her father’s name are sheker. People like to be “tali beashli ravrevi” and claim that a famous person said what they believe to give it credibility. that’s why one needs shimush talmidei chachamim- to hear exactly what someone said, why, and when and how it applies.
If it was Rav Shach ZT”L vs. me (assuming this quote can be verified), there would be no debate. however, like I said, my Rebbe muvhak ZT”L clearly felt not like this. The mitzvah of harbotzas Torah means that one teaches people in the language they understand. So if this statement of Rav Shach ZT”L is correct, Rav Shach ZT”L would still tell me to follow my Rebbe Muvhak ZT”L, as he was a bar samcha. The question is for everyone else. The Mara De’Asra of America, Reb Moshe ZT”L, clearly disagreed with this psak, and for a very logical reason. Just like I am not personally arguing on the Rem”a when I wait 6 hours between meat and milk, I’m not personally arguing on Rav Shach ZT”L when I hold not like him based on my personal Rebbe ZT”L and Reb Moshe ZT”L.
There is a famous story with the Chazon Ish, that someone with a certain eye problem asked him if he should go to Europe to get surgery. the Chazon Ish told him to stay put- in Eretz Yisroel, the Mechaber is the mara de’asra,and he holds the eye problem isn’t a treifa, while in europe, the Rem”a is the mara de’asra, and he holds it’s a treifa. The psakim of the gedolim affect the very metzius of the country. My experience in cheder school 30 years ago confirms the view of Reb Moshe ZT”L. I learned nothing from having to Teitch to Yiddish. I floundered. I recently spoke to the class ilui, the apple of the Rebbe’s eye, who told me that he was just parroting- he didn’t understand a word he was saying. The halacha that one is Yotzei without understanding only applies to lashon hakodesh, not to any other language. So in other words, everyone’s time was wasted, from mine (the worst guy in class) to my friend the ilui (the best guy in class).
Rav Shach ZT”L gave his shiur in a give-and-take style. He wasn’t satisfied with mindless note-takers. On the contrary, he wanted people to argue, in order for “ravcha shmatza”. Rav Shach ZT”L wanted talmidim, not chassidim. One can only get clarity of one thinks through a statement instead of following it blindly. So it would be a doing a terrible disservice to Rav Shach ZT”L if we took his statement as a gezeiras hakasuv, without assuming there’s a logic to it, and assuming that there are logical limits. It’s only fair to assume that Rav Shach ZT”L, if he made this statement, would not apply it in a situation where it leads to frustration and turning people off from learning and Yiddishkeit. Furthermore, there is the famous statement of Rav Shach ZT”L that if he learned less at his Shabbos table and sang more zemiros, his kids would have stayed frummer, and he wouldn’t have had chiloni eineklach. It’s a kol shekein that in america, where many kids are leaving the derech because they aren’t getting a geshmak from learning, that we shouldn’t throw up yet another michshol in their path. It would only be fair to Rav shach ZT”L to say that he never meant his statement to apply to a metzius like nowadays.
I heard a “droosha” on Shabbos in Yiddish at the chassidishe shteeble my inlaws daven at. The drosha was based on Rav Pam ZT”L quoting an Ohr Hachaim Hakodosh. Was it holier because he said “masneh zein” instead of “be masneh”? I didn’t think so. The gemara mentions lashon hakodesh, Unkelos as given on har sinai, and Greek ( based on the passuk of “Yaft elokim leYefes veyishkon beahalei Aheim). Teitch just isn’t in there. As was pointed out earlier, when Jews first switched from Aramaic and Hebrew to German, which became modified to Jedeo-german, and started adopting local German names like Freyda,Feige,Sheina, Feibush, Berel, etc, I’m sure there were those who said “Aramaic is the loshon of all Jews, and one shouldn’t speak this goyishe loshon and adopt goyishe names”. A millenium later, this is now a lashon hakodesh? “Licht” is holier than “light”? “Zein” is holier than “be”
At this chassidishe shteeble I davened at, the Hebrew seforim were in the main beis midrash. the Yiddish and English seforim were in the other room. they knew what was holy and what was not.
Ironic that the guy here using a Yiddish name is saying Yiddish is not holy, while someone using a very anglicized name is arguing the exact opposite.
I am not familiar with the Chassam sofer you quote (that’s Even Ha’ezer 2:11 right?) It is now definitely on my “look-up list”. My biggest kashyas on it are from Parshas Vayeizei, where Yaakov insistys on calling the pile “Gal eid” instead of yigar sahadusa, and 2 Kings 18:26 which clearly states that the Jews did not speak Aramaic. A proof to the chassam sofer is from the coins of the War against Rome, which used ksav ivri instead of ksav ashuris because it was of a lesser kedusha. the Mahara”l (somewhere in Tiferes Yisroel) brings down also that the first luchos were in Ashuris and the second in Ksav Ivris. Another proof to the Chassam Sofer would be Chumach Devorim, whish, as the Gr”a points out, is moshe Rabbeinu’s words. There are phrases like “azlas yad” and “asah merivevos kodesh”.
That said, I don’t get your application of the Chassam Sofer. Mima nafshach- if Ivrit isn’t fully lashon hakodesh, then it qualifies to fit into the chassam sofer. Why is a German offshoot with phrases from chaza”l holier than an offshoot of loshon Hakodesh with Chazal phrases? And why is one German offshoot (Yiddish) holier than another (English)? And if it’s holier, does it really override the words of Shlomo hamelech of “Chanoch lenaar al pi darko”? Does it really ovveride the mitzvah deoraysah of “velimadetem”? Is speaking and teaching in Yiddish really worth the karbanos of kids not enjoying the sweetness of Torah? Speaking yiddish is a reshus or an inyan. Teaching torah is a mitzvah deoraysah.
Time to go hunt down a Chassam sofer.
The reason why powdered milk doesn’t need to be chalav yisroel is that it’s presumed that only kosher milk can be turned into powder.
The trick with all chumros is to realize what’s chumra and what’s halacha. Adam told chavah not to even touch the tree, but never mentioned that it was a chumra. The nachash pushed her against the tree, she realized nothing happened, and the rest is history. (Rashi bereishis 3:3 for those who like sources)
qaws, you’re asking a VERY good question. Administrators grapple with this question regularly. The basic geder most of them hold of is that a chinese auction should offer small prizes that don’t promote someone to a new level of gashmius, but nothing over-the-top. Glossy booklets with dancing dollar bills bouncing next to prizes seem way over-the-top. It turns the tzedakah into a “parah adumah”, purifying the impure but sullying the pure. The retracted Lakewood chinese auction from a few years is an example of an over-the-top chinese auction that got pulled when the Yeshiva hanhala realized that the auction was counter to the ideals the yeshiva was pushing. I know some yeshivas don’t hold them because they feel it promotes gambling. there are also asmachta problems when young people put in tickets sure they’re going to win.
The YCT one doesn’t seem over the top, and the administration there always try to follow daas torah, even when it hurts them in the pocketbook.
Cherrybim, it was not meant to be an immature, manipulative posting. Gavra_at_work posted about why yidish is holy, made a hu hadin, and you agreed. There’s nothing immature about it. You essentially did a hoda’as baal din, and modeh ve’ozeiv yerucham. 🙂
Your more recent post says that there is holiness to Yeshivish English, but there’s more holiness to Yiddish. I’m not familiar with Rav Dovid Cohen’s book, but this is an admission that the difference between English and Yiddish, if there is one as you say, is at most of degree, not of essence- “levels” as we used to say in yeshiva. So where is it stated that the (if true) higher madreiga of yiddish makes it kedai to have all the bittul torah caused when someone speaks in Yiddish to an American-born audience? Man deka’ev le ke’evah azla lebei asya. In other words, vi shteit?
This isn’t meant to be a personal attack, and my apologies if it comes across that way.
Anything stupid is assur- the Rov.
Wow. I’m sure it was a milsa debedichusa, but this line could be used to assur anything you don’t like. I think chazzanus is stupid. Chazzanus is now assur. Great quote, thanks!
It also goes the other way. Many people get in their heads a naarishkeit of what they want, and a bit of realism from level-headed parents is in order.
Areivim, thanks for your kind words.
Notpashut, the story I heard marginally differs. The satmar rebbe complained about 8 dates, and quoted the passuk “Katzti bechayay mipnei bnos bnei ches”, a pun onthe word “ches” meaning the Hittites and the number 8. Rav Bik replied with his now-famous line of the difference between a mesader kiddushin and a mesader gittin.
I heard a statistic that 85% of today’s divorces are preventable. It’s just a question of people not willing to make it work. The other 15% of course are the hidden problems etc.
In other words, Cherrybim, you are admitting that english with Torah words is as holy as yiddish, based on someone actually quoting a review of the book. Then this thread is now closed- English with Yeshivish phrases is as holy as Yiddish, and there is no mitzvah with yiddish more than Yeshivish English. Les man depalig, pardon my Aramaic.
I heard from a posek that ALL monies spent at a Chinese auction is considered maaser except for the amount spent on the winning ticket.
The question is when Chinese auctions become too over-the-top, too gashmius-oriented. A dancing dollar bill is very cute, but it’s the wrong message. Organizations bringing ruchnius to the frei and preaching “gashmius is worthless” shouldn’t turn around to the frum and give them the same gashmius they tell the frei to ignore. It’s hypocritical. At least it’s more honest than the “donate to us and you’ll get all the yeshuos you could ever need” approach.
I know someone who made a fortune in the tech bubble, only to lose all of it. He was very makpid on giving maaser kesafim. He still is proud of giving 100k maaser, but as that was the only money he ever took off the table, he has nothing to show for it. As many will tell you, the bracha of riches by giving maaser only applies to maaser dagan, ie maasser required from the Torah, not to mitzvos derabbanan like maaser kesafim.
So I take it you never read the sefer of which you refer here. I’m quite familiar with Rav Dovid Cohen Shlit”a, and he’s not “ois poisek” because you don’t know the source for this alleged mitzvah. But shtarb min nisht fun a kashye, especially when the Chazon Ish quoted earlier clearly states otherwise. Quoting a title of a book as a proof is not “oisgehalten”. Every halacha has a mekor. Even not walking over a child has a mekor (a Rashb”a not to be mezalzel in minhag nashim zekeinos- “old wives’ tales” and modern poskim who bring that one down as an example.) I have heard the “he doesn’t quote it because it’s pashut” svara when it comes to explaining why the mechaber didn’t quote anything about uncovered eggs, onions, and garlic being dangerous. I have never heard this applied to speaking Yiddish.
The one thing I will say is that a friend of mine got into a shtus of growing payos behind his ears in Eretz Yisroel. He was advised not to cut them off because even though there is no svara to grow them, cutting them off would make him feel like he’s poreik ol.
Joseph, I’m not stripping from him his status as poseik. But if he wrote a book about it, he would state a source in it. I’m asking you to state the source he quotes in his book, if yiddish is an “inyan”, a mitzvah derabbanan, etc, and why. If he doesn’t state it, then the book is meant as “aggadah”, not “halacha”. Rav Dovid Cohen knows what is and is not halacha.
I saw this on another website:
Reb Mendele M’Riminov said that saying Parshas HaMan (Shnayim Mikra V’Echod Targum) on Tuesday Parshas Bishalach, is a Segula for Parnassa. Emails are flying from concerned friend to friend reminding them not to miss the big opportunity with links to places where they can find all that they need online. In fact the Shulchan Aruch says in the first Siman of Orach Chaim that you should say it every day (along Parshas Akeida, Aseres HaDibros, Olah, Mincha, Chatos, Shlamim, Asham, Kiyor, Trumas HaDeshen, Tamid and of course Tikun Chatzos). The Mishna Brura quotes the Yerushalmi that guarantees to anyone who says it every day that he will never lack sustenance.
A new Rav after attending the first board meeting of his less than fervently religious new Shul commented that he thinks they should add the Aseres HaDibros to the Shul’s by-laws, this way everyone would strictly adhere to them. The same can probably be said about our keen interest and adherence to Segulos. Rav Shimshon Pincus among many others once said that the greatest segula for health is to say Asher Yatzar with kavana. Parnassa? Bareich Aleinu of course. You are standing before the Big Boss himself, when will you find a better time to ask for a raise to keep up with your growing families cost of living or a little bonus to cover the tuition or simcha expenses that you are being hounded for?
Not to chas v’shalom belittle the segula of Parshas HaMan or Rav Mendele of Riminov, of course there is great power in saying Parshas HaMan if you read it carefully and don’t just say it at top speed while dreaming about what you will do with the winnings of the upcoming lottery jackpot.
Lesson # 1 No snacks or extras – Hashem sends us everything we need. “Bein HaArbayim Tochlu Basar U’Baboker Tisbi’u Lechem” Bishalach (16:12). Two solid meals a day, meat in the evening and bread in the morning. There was no tea room and small snacks were not provided to keep us going in between. Food and money in general are not given to us to satisfy our constant earthly cravings. They are tools we need for Avodas Hashem, to be used as needed only. Neither the Yerushalmi or Rav Mendele are going to promise you all the things we’ve come to enjoy that we don’t need. As the end of the Pasuk says “ViDatem Ki Ani Hashem”. The budget is given to help you stay in good physical condition to enable you to know that there is Hashem. Two many extras and the brain gets a little foggy, which would defeat the whole purpose.
Lesson # 2 The 100/0 Rule – “VaYamodu BaOmer V’Lo Hedif HaMarbeh V’HaMamit Lo Hechsir” (12:18) How much money you get has absolutely nothing to do with your efforts or your intelligence. Not 50%, not 5%, and not even .01%. 100% Siyata Dishmaya.
Lesson # 3 No savings plan – “Ish Al Yoser MiMenu Ad Boker” (12:19). In the 40 years in the midbar there was no bank collapse or stock market crash. No one had any money put away for a rainy day. By time everyone went to sleep in the midbar all the cupboards were empty and there wasn’t a crumb to be had. I am sure they all slept better than we do with our “savings” protected in the bank, stock market, real estate, or pension fund. We worry what we will eat tomorrow even though we have plenty. They didn’t although they had nothing. It would seem silly to say Parshas HaMan with the intention of adding to your coffers. Here again I am not sure the Yerushalmi or Rav Mendele can help you. Maybe a good solution for those of you who have too much cash floating around that you not ready to part with is to put it in a G’mach.
If you go through the pasukim yourself with honest eyes and an open mind you will no doubt be inspired to discover countless other lessons regarding the proper attitude towards parnassa. It is important to also remember the first words of the parsha (16:4), “L’Ma’an Anasenu HaYeilech B’Soirasi Im Lo”, the test of earning a living is all about proving that you are a loyal Yid going in the way of Hashem’s Torah. Do you obtain it honestly. Do you earn money to keep the Torah, or is the art of earning money the torah you worship?
Indeed these are lofty goals and far from where many of us are today. But surely, as the Yerushalmi or Rav Mendele say, it is worth saying Parshas HaMan, today on this revered day, and everyday. The repetition will certainly have an effect on us and it may start to seep in. The closer we get to this goal the richer we will indeed be. Your life will be enriched and it will be a life worth living. And as promised, Hashem will always give you all that you really need. You will feel great and look great, free of any worry. Remember Hashem calls us His “Am Segula” for a reason, and its not because we say Parshas HaMan on Super Tuesday with one eye on the chumash and the other eye on the stock market.
So Rav Dovid Cohen wrote an entire book about Yiddish being a holy language, and never discusses sources or even if it’s a Mitzvah? A real poseik never takes anything for granted. He always looks at the sources. so I ask you, what are the sources? Hoisen?
I’m not denying that there are wonderful Yiddish phrases that revel a Jewish heart that formed the language. There are wonderful phrases in Aramaic and Hebrew too.
Would the Mets’ newly-acquired setup man be such a favorite if not for vulgar Yiddish slang?
CherryBim, The Artscroll is like GPS- they both get you to where you need to go, but you have no clue how how got there. One needs to learn how to make a laining. Whether the translation in your head is in yiddish or English is irrelevant. Is the Artscroll really on a lower level than the Beis Yehuda Chumash? I agree with you 100% on this one. I have never said otherwise. In fact, I have even quoted sources to say that Aramaic is a loshon hakodesh. There are no such sources for Yiddish though, and when I ask for one, I’m told “pants”.
Mitzvos need to be stated in sefarim. Kol Hamosif gorea. Once the mekor for mitzvos is one’s boych instead of rabbeim or sefarim, one can turn anything into a mitzvah or an averia. If I claimed it’s a mitzvah to wear a spoddik and an aveirah to wear a streimel, and give the mekor as “pants”, you’d feel pretty “hoised”.If I claim it’s a mitzvah to eat cereal in the morning instead of bread, and said it’s pashut, you would be right in laughing at me. Hashem and the Gedolim who interpret our mesorah determine mitzvos and aveiros. So again I repeat: What is the source for this alleged mitzvah that one needs to speak in Yiddish? And what is the source for the mitzvah to speak in Yiddish that says it’s so important that it overrides the mitzvah of limud Torah berabbim?
Speaking of hoisen and Yiddish, there is a story that circulates in yeshivas that at the funeral of a certain Gadol, someone got up there and spoke in Yiddish. He meant to say the the gadol speant a lot of time in Yungeleit’s houses. Unfortunately, his limited knowledge of Yiddish made him forget that the plural of “hoise” is “heiser”, not “hoisen”.
We have to differentiate between the segulos.
There are the segulos based on real sources, and there are the modern segulos that look suspiciously like darchei emori.
The Torah clearly says talmud Torah kenegged kulam.Any segula based on actual learning can’t be bad. Torah is the biggest mitzvah. the biggest lesson of Parshas Haman is found in Rashi Ledoroseichem at the end- Hashem provides our needs. Working is hishtadlus. This is the lesson of Parshas HaMann. On Shabbos, we have lechem mishna to remind us of the Mann. On the day we don’t work, we remind ourselves that we can take off on Shabbos because Hashem provides.
The question is on the segulos that are of recent vintage and don’t seem to be tied into Hashem.
The best segula is always Davening and learning. I am dismayed at the glossy publications promising that if you give money to their organization then you are guaranteed yeshuos. there was an article about this in the yated of 2 weeks ago.
Sorry to see you leaves, Ames.
We men sometime argue in the heated manner that’s done in yeshivas.
Joseph, II Kings 18:26 clearly implies that most Jews only spoke Hebrew, not Aramaic. If it was otherwise, they were wasting their time with their request to Ravshakeh.
The Shulchan Aruch specifically mentions in Siman 90 of Orach Chaim that one needs to dress in an honorable manner when one prays. If you appear before a judge, come dressed like a slob, and ignore the judge when your cellphone goes off, he’s not going to be too inclined to listen to you. Rabbeinu Yonah mentions having a clean garment to put on by davening. Hashem is not only our father but our King as well.
That said, this is in regards to oneself. One does not judge other people- “Betzedek tishpot amisecha”. Judge yourself harshly, others favorably. If someone comes to shul dressed that way, let him be. There may be other factors which make his tefilla more accepted than yours, even though he’s in jeans and you’re in the hat and jacket. In a shul I attended in Israel the locals came in a clean white shirt and their best jeans on Shabbos. If that is the minhag hamakom, then one is not making a casual statement by coming to shul in jeans.
Around the house is clearly another story.
Let’s expand the topic- what about coming to shul in shorts or sweatpants?
Joseph, I’m going based on the words of my Rebbe Muvhak, as well as the sevara pshuta. Wearing pants in public- the Tannaim and Amoraim wore robes. Pants got into fashion in Europe. European custom has been adopted in America, so we wear pants. Pants are not holier than robes, but it’s the minhag.Of course, one should wear something under the robes, but that’s neither here nor there. There are many Afghanis in my area who wear robes instead of pants. Are hoisen now also a mitzvah?
My Rebbe tried to give shiur in English for the benefit of the bochurim, but sometimes he’d lapse into Yiddish.
There are those who gave shiur in Yididsh because that was their natural way of speaking. there are those who give shiur in yiddish because ” it’s amitzvah to speak in yiddish”. Again, vi shteit? Rashi was never mekayeim such a big mitzvah of speaking in yiddish? And if it’s to separate us from the goyim, why not speak Lashon Hakodesh instead of a language that shares linguistic roots with the Nazis yemach shemom?
When the bachurim in Slabodka, the “eim hayeshivos” according to Rav shach, dressed in a modern, stylish manner, were they oveir aveiros? The biggest Gedolim and Roshei Yeshivos all came from Slabodka (Reb Aaron, Reb Yaakov, Rav Shach, Rav Hutner, Rav Ruderman, et al), so it would be hard to say they were avaryonim (transgressors). When a Jew speaks in a refined manner, and dresses in a refined manner, so that all who see him respect him, then he has distinguished himself. When an English-speaking Jew peppers his English with phrases from Gemara and Tanach, then he has distinguished himself. Why the rest has to be German instead of English is something still unexplained, and comparisons to hoisen don’t answer the question.
It’s quite possible when the first European Jews started giving their kids German names like “Freydle”, “Gluckel”, “Berel”, etc, they were oveir an aveira of chukas hagoyim. Now these names are accepted by hundreds of years of use. But don’t tell me they’re holier than names of tzaddikim and tzidkaniyos from Tanach, or similar names in Lashon hakodesh.
In short, whatever reason you have for Yiddish, Lashon hakodesh makes more sense.
Ironic that last year’s much-reviled concert ban was against someone who sang mostly in Yiddish.
CherryBim, I have no problem if you want to argue on me and my Rebbe, and say that Yiddish is holy. However, I must request a source other than a “boych svara”. As they say in mamaloshon, “vi shteit” (where is it stated)?
I assume the daas Torah on this one is like nicotine patches- good for those who need it, bad for those who don’t.
Bemused, nobody who speaks Arabic or Persian claims it to be anything other than their home language (although the Ibn Ezra would say that Arabic IS a holy tongue). Many who speak Yiddish do so because that is the language that they’re taught in. I have no problem with that. My father knew Yiddish from his father, and I’m still disappointed that we did not speak any Yiddish at home. It is a beautiful language (the colorful Torah-dig expressions, not the amaleikishe Germanic core) , and many shiurim today are given in Yiddish.
However, there are some who have elevated yiddish to a mitzvah, and have called it heilig, the same way they say Boro Park is a Yerushalayim. Yiddish is a golus language. When Moshiach comes, Torah will not be taught in Yiddish. Europe was one stop on the golus journey. Why is one stage of golus more heilig than another? Why have we adopted the Holocaust worship of the irreligious and twisted it into “der heilige shtetl” (the holy European town)? Torah was learned before the Jews migrated into Europe, and Torah is learned by Jews who have no European roots.
I have no hatred for anyone who speaks Yiddish, and have no hatred for anyone who claims Yiddish is heilig. I just would like to see a source for this. So far, I have yet to see a source for the claim that yiddish is heilig, other than “the velt thinks so”. Oilem Goilem (better left untranslated). Show me a Torah source, please. That’s all I ask. Because My Rebbe Muvhak ( a native Yiddish speaker from Lita) said the exact opposite, and I have yet to see any real source to contradict him.
Ames, I think you hit the nail on the head.
There are 613 mitzvos in the Torah, many more derabbanans, and none of them are “speak Yiddish” (at least not in my shulchan aruch- if someone here has a mekor for this alleged mitzvah, I’m still waiting to see it cited).
Hashem will judge me in shimayim based on my mitzvos and aveiros, both bein adam lamakom and bein adam lachaveiro. I will not be asked if I spoke an offshoot of High German when I learned Torah. In fact, the ikkar (main part of the mitzvah) of Torah Shebaal peh is havana- understanding. According to many poskim, if one learns gemara but doesn’t understand it then one is not Yotzei the mitzvah (one has not fulfilled his obligation). If a speaker speaks in Yiddish, preventing me from understanding his Divrei Torah, then he just wasted my time. If your words are important enough to be shared in public, then aren’t they important enough to be shared to everyone? Chazal used to have a meturgeman to repeat and translate, to make sure everyone understood. They didn’t say “If he doesn’t understand that’s his problem”.
People who don’t know Yiddish are hostile to it because people who know it claim they’re doing a groyse (large) mitzvah by speaking it, even though it alienates the majority of Jews today trying to learn Torah who don’t speak it. The Mitzvah of teaching Torah to the masses is a tremendous mitzvah, which I’m sure is even larger than this alleged Mitzvah of speaking in Yiddish, which the Jews weren’t able to fulfill until its universal adoption a few hundreds of years ago. Moshe Rabbeinu would want Torah taught in a language that the masses understand, based on Rashi in Mishpatim that specifies that the Torah should be placed before Klal yisroel like a “set table”.
Squeak, there is a se’if in shulchan aruch that says someone who can’t distinguish between an aleph and an ayin should not daven for the amud. The Mishna Brurah comments that nowadays that doesn’t apply anymore, since nobody knows how to pronounce it properly. We do our best.
I was talking to a friend of mine who is a baal midakdek. He told me that he used to try to be makpid on the ayin to pronounce it gutturally, but when he heard someone else doing it he realized how silly it sounded. He continued, “So I no longer say ShmA (deep guttural ayin sound) . I turned to another friend standing next to me and sais, “You heard him. He no longer says ‘Shma’ “. My first friend laughed at my distortion of his words but still gave me a token punch in the arm. I thought it was funny…
Teen, what you are asking is for another thread- giving people mussar, right or wrong? But this thread is about people posting what they want, and others analyzing it. Isn’t that the whole purpose of this thread?
My brother has a friend who’s in his late 20’s and miserable. his parents give him whatever money he needs, and now he has no desire for life. nothing to accomplish or strive for. Many reritrees end up going back to work after discovering how boring life out of the office is. People need goals and something to strive for. the lack of money in people’s lives actually makes them happier, because it gives them a goal to strive for- not a Torah-oriented goal, but it keeps them busy. the midrash rabbah in Bereishis says that the yetzer hara is “tov meod”- very good. Without the yetzer hara, nothing would get built or done. The desire for money makes the world go round. Having 100 billion dollars is fun for the first day or 2. then what?
Joseph, ivrit is lashon hakodesh slightly distorted by an anti-religious man who used to put tefillin on a dog and let it run around Yerushalayim. It closely resembles real lashon hakodesh enough to be used as such if one leaves out the modern distortions like televizia. When one reads works like tha Alei Shur, one can see the results of such an effort. Its Hebrew is way more advanced than those of us non-Hebrew speakers are used to. Ben-Yehuda’s modern abominations and innovations do not cancel out thousands of years of Lashon Hakodesh. To say it does not resemble Lashon Hakodesh “in any way shape or form” is an admission that you don’t know Biblical, Mishnaic, or modern Hebrew well. Any perusal of a chumash with knowledge gleaned from a “hayesod” book will reveal the fact that they share more than they do not.
I will agree with you that usage of Yiddish for divrei kedusha made it holy, the way that Yaakov Avinu elevated simple stones of chullin into keilim of kedusha. The same thing applies to English, however. But does it retain its holiness when used for treif things? Are the works of Shalom Aleichem and other maskilim holy because they are in Yiddish? Does loshon hara said in a mikveh before davening in yiddish not count because it was spoken in an ersatz “looshin hakoidish”?
My brother-in law who lives in Kensington once visited me for shabbos, and he attended with me a shiur in English. after Shabbos, he expressed jealousy- where he lives, all the shiurim are in Yiddish, meaning he has no way of attending a shiur to improve his Torah knowledge on Shabbos. It’s hard enough for people to learn. Why throw up additional barriers and then wonder why they go off the derech?
But which Yiddish is holy? Is it the Lithuanian Yiddish or the Galician or Ungarshin yiddish? Is it more heilig to say “licht” or “lecht”? Is Lipa’s quote of the old marriage joke from kiddushin more or less heilig because he said “kaysif minoolin” instead of “kesef minalan”? does someone have “tzoros” or “tzooris”? Is your daughter Hinda or Henda? Is this Purim Toyrah, Purim Teyrah, or Pirim Toyrah?
Zei gebentched.
Dairy farms contain specially bred cows designed to be milk machines. camels have not been bred for milk production. As such, Camel’s milk would be very expensive, and not worth cutting cow’s milk with.
Teen, the reason you want lots of money is because you actually want happiness. In other words, what you actually want is to be happy. If you discovered that money makes people miserable and depressed, you wouldn’t want it. Am I correct about this?
Lashon Hakodesh id kadosh be’etzem.Ie, it’s intrinsically holy. Histakel be’oraysah ubara alma (Hashem looked into the Torah as a blueprint and created the world from it- famous phrase from the zohar, quoted a lot in sifrei kodesh like the Nefesh Hachaim). The world was created in Lashon Hakodesh. Even if chas veshalom nobody learned a word in it, the language is still holy. The Ibn Ezra and the Mahara”l (genuine sifrei kodesh) also say that Aramaic is holy. Aramaic, the lingua franca of Jews for 1,500 years, is, according to the Mahara”l, the language of olam haba. That is why we do shnayim mikra ve’echad targum, according to the Mahara”l- the 2 readings in Lashon Hakodesh correspond to the olam ha’elyon and the olam ha’tachton, the the targum corresponds to olam haba.
Yiddish is known as “teitch”. Teitch comes from the German word Deutch, meaning “German”. Germany is known by the locals as Deutchland. In other words, Yiddish isn’t intrinsically holy- it’s a Germanic tongue. It is similar to Judeo-Fez, Judeo-Spanish (aka Ladino), Judeo-French, etc in that it’s an adaptation of the local language with Hebrew letters, a jargon similar to creole or ebonics. As previously mentioned, Rav Yisroel Salanter, a native Yiddish speaker living in Europe, referred to Yiddish in one of his letters in the Ohr Yisroel as “zargon”, ie jargon. No glossy-eyed romanticization of Yiddish as a lashon hakodesh for him.
There are several claims here that Yiddish is holy for sevaros chitzonos, even if it’s not intrinsically holy like Lashon Hakodesh. They are, in sum:
1. It’s been the lingua franca of Jews for 1,000 years
2. There is a lot of Torah that’s learned in it
3. the best shiurim are given in Yiddish
4. it keeps the Jews separate.
Reason number 1 is mufrach minei ubei (inherently specious) because :
a. It makes the language historic, but not holy,
b. Hebrew (as the form of Lashon Hakodesh, both Lashon haTorah and Lashon Chachamim), Aramaic and even Arabic have been used by Jews a lot longer than Yiddish,
c. Many Jews in the world didn’t and don’t speak Yiddish.
Rashi, the quintessential Ashkenazi, quotes words of Laa”z to translate hard words of Lashon Hakodesh. Sure enough, they’re in French, not Yiddish. so much for Yiddish being the lingua franca of the yidden for 1,000 years.
Reason #2, that much Torah is and has been learned in it, apply to Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, and English as well. So the difference between Yiddish and English is one of degree, not of essence. Lashon Hakodesh and Aramaic are essentially different from Yiddish because they are intrinsically holy, plus there is or was a lot of Torah learned in those languages. Furthermore, if Yiddish was so holy due to all the torah learned in it, why did the leading Yiddish-speaking Rishonim and Acharonim choose to write their seforim in Lashon Hakodesh instead of Yiddish?
Apparently Lashon Hakodesh is holier than Yiddish.
Reason #3 is a valid reason for learning Yiddish- the best Shiurim are given in Yiddish. But it doesn’t make it holy. If the best shiurim were given in French, there would be an inyan to learn French. But that doesn’t make french holy.
Reason #4 was a valid reason to speak Yiddish, even if it’s not holy. Unfortunately, the realities of our American galus make knowing only Yiddish an obstacle for parnassah. As the Gadol Reb Yaakov ZT”L pointed out, in America you must teach English. To do otherwise is to teach your son “listus” (banditry). In the shtetl is was possible to just know yiddish and make do. In America, the realities just don’t work. While many baalei battim feel otherwise, the gedolim who deal in the realities argue. Furthermore, this can be accomplished by speaking Lashon Hakodesh, a language both intrinsically and extrinsically holy.
My Rosh hayeshiva ZT”L, a native yiddish speaker from Lita, referred to Yiddish as an “amaleikishe lashon” ( a language from amaleik, referring to its Germanic core). This romanticism of Yiddish is a modern phenomenon, part of our myopic belief that Jewish history began in the shtetls of Eastern Europe. The Jewish children’s books showing moshe Rabbeinu in a streimel don’t help things.
Yiddish is and was a nice language. but let’s not turn it into a mitzvah. there are enough real Mitzvos out there.
Lingua franca literally means “French Language”. It means the common tongue of the world, which right now is English.
Rabbi horowitz has written about people whose first language is Yiddish and can’t get a real job because they can’t function in society. So I do not give credit to those who do so, as they are dooming their son to limited career choices (not everyone is meant to become a gadol hador) although I understand their hava amina (“I would have said”, ie a logical thought that is later refuted).
Teen, the knees are supposed to be covered. the “4 inches” rule was that someone figured out if s girl sits, 4 inches would be enough extra length to ensure that the knees remain covered. It’s not exact, of course.
The Oz vehadar levusha has many chumras in tznius that are not me-ikar hadin. The knee covering is, though. If the school tells your sister she can’t wear sneakers, then you have a complaint.
there is a lot of am haaratzus out there. Many people don’t have rabbeim, and do what everyone else does. Many schools have adopted ridiculous tznius standards to prove that they are the best. Find a competant rov who actually knows halacha and the sources for any questions you may have. “Oilem Goilem”, meaning the world is full of people who have no clue.
Exactly, Joseph. furthermore, even without cheating, there’s a lot that goes into butter and other dairy production that makes kashrus supervision a must. oukosher.org and kashrut.com have good articles explaining all this.
Yiddish is very much a geshmake language. There is a certain authentic Jewishness to it and its expressions. But it doesn’t make it holy. Modern Yiddish isn’t 1,000 years old. It evolved from German once it became isolated from Germanic states when the Jews migrated to Slavic states. I learned Yiddish from a book years ago and do not regret it. Aramaic was a lingua franca for Jews for even longer than yiddish was. Even if we push Yiddish back 1,000 years, Aramaic was a Jewish language from 500 bce to 1,000 ce, or 1500 years.
But there’s nothing heilig about attending a socialist Yiddish theater, and there’s nothing holy about watching “The Passion” because it’s in Aramaic. Torah is holy. The language is irrelevant, whether it’s English, Yeshivish, Yiddish, Judeo-German, Judeo-Fez, Ladino, Aramaic, Greek, or Hebrew. The 6th perek of pirkei avos says “Shanu chachomim belashon hamishna”. It does not say “Shanu chachomim beyiddish”, unless there’s some variant nusach I’m not aware of.
Ladino is Judeo-Spanish, the unique Jewish language of sefardim.
The new lashon hakodeh for America is Yeshivish, a mixture of English, Hebrew, Yiddish, and Aramaic. It’s unique enough to identify a yeshiva man.
True story. I was once looking at some ties in a store, and some goy started talking to me about them. Without thinking I said “they have their maalos”. The guy said “Mylar? They’re silk!”
If Yiddish is holy because so much Torah was learned in it, then French is holy because Rashi and many Provencal rishonim learned in it, and Spanish is holy because many Sefardi rishonim learned in it, and of course Arabic, a real loshon hakodeh and the original language for Moreh Nevuchim and Peirush Hamishnayos lehaRamba”m. And don’t forget the ima delishnaos, aramaic, the language of our Tannaim, Amoraim, Savoraim and Geonim! And that means English is a Lashon Hakodesh, the native language of Lakewood ir haTorah, or at least the yeshivish jargon of it. And yet Rabbi Yehuda Hanassi disparaged Aramaic, despite all the Torah learned in that language. What did he know that today’s Yiddish lobbyists do not?
Finally, chanoch lenaar al pi darko means that teaching kids in Yiddish is bittul Torah if they don’t understand it.
When I was in first grade, I attended a “cheder”-type school where I read the passuk with the yiddish teitch. As someone who didn’t speak a word of yiddish, I accomplished NOTHING. I recently spoke to the best guy in the class. He told me that he parroted the yiddish but didn’t understand it either. So my limud torah was sacrificed on the mizbeiach of Yiddish. My Torah says limud torah is important, but does not mention Yiddish as a mitzvah. This beatification of Yiddish is just one more atzas hayetzer to ensure that many people don’t actually learn Torah, and have to ganven to make a parnassah since they can’t communicate in the lashon hamedina. The Gedolim were in favor of teaching kids in the language in which they learn best. Daas chachomim hepech midaas baalabatim.
I do advocate learning Yiddish as a practical matter as a “hechsher mitzvah” to attend the top shiurim in Eretz Yisroel, but it’s not a mitzvah bifnei atzmah. Rabbi Eliezer (who held that even a hechsher mitzvah is doche Shabbos) is a daas Yachid.
Yiddish is given so much attention today because it makes people who speak Yiddish feel that they are mikayem a mitzvah by speaking Yiddish, and haosek bemitzvah pattur min hamitzvah. But as a litvak, I have yet to see a real mekor for the idea many would have you believe that redden mikveh neias in Yiddish is a bigger mitzvah than learning Torah in English.
Before Yiddish was the mamaloshon, There was Judeo-German and Aramaic ( all the dialects, Eastern and Western). There was a Jewish history before Yiddish became the Jewish lingua franca.
Some of today’s modern Hebrew names are picked to be antagonistic to the religious. Names like Reshef (demon), Nimrod (rasha), Anat (the name of an avoda zarah!) , Omri (rasha), et al.
More Yiddish
Feivel comes from Feivish which comes from Phobos meaning light. Shraga means torch. the name is Shraga Phobos.
Anshel comes from Anshelm, and old German name.
Ettel is Ethel, German for noble.
Yentle is “Gentle”.
Berel means “little bear”, for someone named dov.
Velvel means “wolf”, for someone named Binyomin or Zev.
Zlata is like the English Penny.
Leibel means little lion- Aryeh Leib.
Hershel means little deer, for someone named Tzvi or Naftali.
Mendel is a form of Menachem.
Feigel means little bird- like Tzipporah
Baila either means “white” or the Italian “Bella” meaning beautiful.
NOT loshon hakodesh.
A little history of Aramaic and the Jews:
There are sources that indicate that before mattan torah, the Jews spoke Aramaic. regardless, after mattan torah they spoke Hebrew exclusively. Due to the spread of the Assyrian and Babylonian empires, Aramaic became “the” common tongue of the Middle East. When the Jews were exiled, they switched to Aramaic. When they came back to Eretz Yisroel, they kept Aramaic. Later, Alexander the Great conquered the Middle East, and Greek became the lingua franca (literally “French Language”, ie. the common tongue). The Jews kept speaking Aramaic. the rabbis spoke Mishnaic Hebrew. The Hellenists spoke Greek. We find Greek names later appearing among the Jews, like Hyrcanus, Theodotus, Todros, Sumchus, etc. The anti-semitic “Passion” movie was done in Aramaic because that was Yoshke’s native language, the language of the am. This is the background for Rebbe’s statement about Aramaic- either Loshon Hakodesh or greek. Aramaic was passe’ as a common tongue, and it wasn’t loshon hakodesh. The same can be said for Yiddish. The Torah is holy. Lashon Hakodesh (Both lashon hatorah and Loshon chachamim, aka Mishnaic Hebrew)is holy. Yiddish is NOT holy. You don’t say birchas haTorah before reading the anti-religious works of Shalom Aleichem or an old copy of the socialist Yiddish Forward. In fact, you don’t read them at all, even if they’re written in Yiddish.
That said, some of the best shiurim in the yeshivos in eretz Yisroel are given in Yiddish. It’s good to learn yiddish as an eitza tovah if you want to attend the top Yeshivas. Otherwise, I’ll listen to the words of my Rosh Hayeshiva ZT”L, a native Yiddish speaker- Yiddish has NO kedusha.
There is a midrash that says Hebrew is a lashon hakodesh because there are no not-nice words in it. The same can’t be said for Yiddish.
One of the biggest shandas by Rav Gifter’s Levayah in New York was that only one speaker spoke in English.
RoshYeshiva, what real Rosh Yeshiva quotes sifrei chassidus?
Yiddish is NOT holy. Ibn Ezra says Hebrew, Aramaic, and Arabaic (which are Semitic) are holy. Yiddish is Germanic,with Russian, Slavic, etc mixed in. Not holy.