Joseph, I have all the respect in the world for the people quoted. But there are 70 ways of reading the Torah, and more than 1 way of reading every peirush. You have to know what they mean, and when they apply. The Rambam worked as a doctor, so he can’t be arguing on himself. Klal Yisroel for thousands of years didn’t have kollel except for yechidei segulah. In the zman moshiach, we’ll all be in kollel (and the yetzer hara that makes people hate learning will be gone). But to say that bezman hazeh nobody should work, when the teva of the world is not like that, is clearly a distortion of the peirushim. Nisht da aza Rambam. Furthermore, he says there is no chiyuv to do anything with the learning in terms of zikui harabim or klei kodesh. Rav yisroel Salanter brings many proofs fakert. Olam chesed yibaneh, mah hu rachum, etc. Anything that promotes selfish learning without being mezakeh others is clearly a distortion as well. “Rabbaim challalim hipila- zeh mi shraui lehora’ah ve’eino moreh.” So the top maaleh is to be like Hashem- be meracheim on the briyos by teaching them torah, not by locking oneself up in the kloiz all day.

I agree with all the proofs that learning Torah is an ikkar, and work is a tafel. As Rabbeinu Yonah says in pirkei avos, lo nivra ha’adam ela lilmod Torah. but to say one should ignore his family, when the Orchos tzaddikim and the lashon that chazal were mesakein in the kesubah (“eizon, eflach, efarnes”) clearly state otherwise, has to be a distortion. It’s a tremendous maaleh if you’re cut out for it, but NOT A CHIYUV.

Of course, everything i say is “Internet torah” as well, which is why one should ask his rav/poseik/rosh hayeshiva. Joseph, all you have to do is attribute the article to take it out of the status if “internet torah”, although as it disagrees with my rabbeim and their mesorah I am free to ignore it.

Joseph, I read them. I don’t have questions. I know from my rabbeim and seforim that the shitos quoted here are not the only shitos. Such is mesorah. When I point this out, you willfully ignore this. Rav Aharon Kotler ZTL”s shita is not the only shita. Kollel is nice, but lifetime kollel without doing anything ,even klei kodesh, was never an option for everybody. As always, ask your LOR or rebbe, and don’t believe Internet Torah.

From Orchos Tzddikimm sha’ar ha’ahavah. In short, Work+ learning is a good thing. Ayen sham. He is a rishon. Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L’s shita is a valid one, but his kollel wasn’t like that, and many gedolim hold differently. Of course the ikkar is learning torah and mitzvos, not earning money. But both are important, thanks to the cheit of Adam Harishon. Joseph, “will” you please explain this quote that it does not disagree with your internet Torah, or are there sources who say differently from it?

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The Orach Chaim in Parshas Shemini says , based on midrash tehillim 146, that the pig is called “chazer” because it will “chozer” to being kosher in zman moshiach. (There is deep significance to this, as the pig represents eisav and the yetzer hara).

The Brisker Rov has a kashye on this- we know the halacha is, according to the Rambam, that a halacha can’t be changed. so if a pig will become kosher and will not grow a ruminant stomach, then it violated the Rambam! And if it grows a ruminant stomach, then it’s not a pig! Unfortunately, my brother-in-law who told me this kashye couldn’t find in his notebook the teretz his rebbe said over from the Brisker Rov.

Bottom line- pigs are much cheaper than cows. Kosher pigs, besides meaning that moshiach is here, also means that cheap meat is here.

I was thinking of starting a farm of bnei pekuah animals, minimizing kashrus problems, increasing yields, and allowing more parts of the animal to be used.

So if working is bad, who’s supporting the learning guy?

The Orchos Tzaddikim (Shar ha’ahavah) says quite clearly that one should work AND learn, and one without the other leads to destruction. I would take his word over an anonymous internet author any day.

Furthermore, until recently, people who learned all day were yechidei segulah. It took a combination of the Industrial Revolution (where agricultural workers went from 80% of the population to 2% due to advances in agriculture) and the vast wealth of the post-WWII era to create today’s kollel environment. Rav Yitzchak Nafcha held down a job, as well as Rabbi Yehoshua, Rabbi Yochanan Hasandler and others.

Baruch Hashem, the vast wealth of the post-WWII era allowed the existence of kollels, revitalizing the Jewish community and providing talmidei chahchamim who were able to be machzir atarah leyoshnah. To say that the world was devoid of Torah until now, however, is sheer folly. The way of the world (post-Gan Eden, post- midbar) is that one needs to work or have someone work for him. Be’er she’ata shoseh mimenu mayaim, al tizrok bo even. By not showing hakaras hatov to the baalei batim who allow those in learning to learn, these articles hurt, not help, the kollel cause.

I wish for pig to become kosher (as per Or Hachaim on Parshas Shemini)

PY, the idea of niflaos haborei is said in multiple places, including the chovos halevavos. Noman Lamm’s words, however, are NOT saying that. Nobody says that a lack of knowing niflaos haborei means your knowledge is incomplete. Norman Lamm is clearly saying you need secular knowledge because otherwise you’re incomplete, which is consistent with some of the broader interpretations of TIDE. He posited that perhaps one should make a bracha before entering the chemistry lab. Where did the Rambam ever suggest that? Norman Lamm is quite clear on what he meant.

I would like to See video surveillance by normal dairy farms so I can drink chalav yisroel milk which won’t curdle my stomach.

ROB, if you google the phrases I quoted you can find the original article. Bottom line- he was against it, and until a bigger Talmid chacham approves it, it’s assur.

Squeak, the other 35 don’t want to be known as Lamed Zaynikim. Maybe next round, sorry.

Yeshno am echad…

PY:

Joseph, MO doesn’t say it is a mitzva to get a secular degree for the sake of the degree.

PY, it depends who’s defining Modern Orthodoxy. Wikipedia lists multiple definitions, and it also lists Norman Lamms:

As articulated by Rabbi Norman Lamm, in a widely quoted paragraph:

Torah, faith, religious learning on one side and Madda, science, worldly knowledge on the other, together offer us a more over-arching and truer vision than either one set alone. Each set gives one view of the Creator as well as of His creation, and the other a different perspective that may not agree at all with the first … Each alone is true, but only partially true; both together present the possibility of a larger truth. (ibid, p. 236)

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In other words, according to Norman Lamm, a degree for the sake of a degree is a great thing, as it gives us a vision into a larger truth.

According to an article published by Rabbis Aryeh Frimer (Professor of Active Oxygen Chemistry at Bar Ilan University) and Dov Frimer (attorney and Adjunct Professor in Hebrew University) in Tradition(32:3, pp. 5-118, Winter 1998), Rav YB Soloveitchik, while willing to accommodate women’s prayer groups (although he later changed his mind), had a much more negative view of women dancing with the torah. While there is a chiyuv for women to pray, there is NO chiyuv for hakafos. Furthermore, Rav Soloveitchik would “unequivocally express his opposition to women’s hakafot”, and often “expressed his extreme annoyance at being cited as the authority who supposedly sanctioned women’s hakafot”.

So, in short:

1.Every other gadol clearly says “no” to women’s hakafos.

2. Even Rav YB Soloveitchik, supposedly the source for the heter of women’s hakafos, was against them.

PY, not necessarily. Eilu ve’eilu, and many chareidi gedolim allow college. So a chareidi who visits a frum doctor views the doctor as someone who followed his own gedolim, not an avaryan. Furthermore,EVEN if what you are saying is true, which I don’t believe but am accepting for argument’s sake, a yid is a yid as long as he’s shomer shabbos, ie not Mechalel Shabbos befarhesya .

I found a Yalkut Yehuda quoting a chizkuni- a ben sorer umoreh has a din of rodef, and we kill him to save others. But this still leaves your question- why sekila? For that we have Rav Pinkus- he will be a vadai killer, so we give him the sekila now.

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David, this, of course, is my own understanding of the Rema. the Rema is in YD 246. Secular studies (assuming not sifrei minus) are only assur due to the opportunity cost of torah, not intrinsically assur. It sounds like Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L and Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L viewed secular studies as intrinsically assur. The question is, is “parnassah” a hutra or hudcha?

Starwolf, it’s tough to judge people by what they did before they became gedolim. The most accurate guage is what they said after they became gedolim. Rav yaakov Kaminetzky ZT”L encouraged education for parnassah purposes and allowed college. He was upset with a frummie parent who refused to let his son go to secular high school classes in yeshiva. That son didn’t stay in learning, and had a lot of tzaros in his life. Rav Hutner ZT”L allowed college for parnassah. I am not familiar with Rav Avigdor Miller ZT”L views on it. Rav Zelig Epstein’s yeshiva did not allow college. I had a friend in college who was in Shaar Hatorah, and wasn’t allowed to attend shiur because he attended college. My Rosh Hayeshiva ZT”L allowed college for parnassah purposes, used to read newspapers to know what’s going on, and actually was familiar with certain secular poets, but did not view secular studies as an ideal. It’s like going to the bathroom- necessary (for some) but nothing to glorify.

The big question is the grey areas. Let’s say someone loves math and wants to be a math teacher. He takes lots of math courses in college above and beyond what he needs to be a successful math teacher. Is that allowed or not? The world was created “bereishis”, meaning beshvil yisroel ( the raishis, or “chosen portion”, of nations), shyisasku beoraysa (the raishis, or “chosen portion”, of wisdom). The world was not created so that we could go to college and make money. The question is, what leisure activities are we allowed? Saying “college is assur” but hanging around the streets all day because you hate learning is not what Hashem wants either. This is why someone needs a rav. Someone who neeeds secular studies to be happy may be allowed dispensations not allowed to others. This is why someone needs a rav or rebbe, and can’t make decisions based on pashkevilin.

In Israel these rules are standard for yeshivas.

Add Rav Mordechai Gifter ZT”L and Rav Nosson Wachtfogel ZT”L.

NY Mom, I thank you for the ego trip 🙂

I am aware that a disparaging tone can turn an honest debate into a shoutfest. I am also aware that Joseph’s intention was to dictate, not to debate. That said, I don’t see why we need to allow that to spoil the debate.

Maybe we should just do a reset- i.e., a fresh topic about modern Orthodoxy with no opening monologue from either side, and let the arguments fall where they may.

Joseph, the frum newspapers have columns all the time showing “wonders of the world”, scientific discoveries, etc. The Shvus Yaakov rules that reading a newspaper on Shabbos is allowed. clearly there are non-parnassah exceptions as well. Do you have a rav to whom you ask shailos?

NY Mom, EVERY controversial topic will offend those looking to be offended. The need to get at the truth requires us to put our personal feelings aside and analyze the issue dispassionately. If we allow this topic to be “Third-Railed”, it will cast a pall on discussion of ANY controversial topic for fear of offending those who are easily offended. No more discussions about kollel vs. working, drinking, college, chassidus, hisnagdus, cholov yisroel, tznius, etc. All we’ll be left with is the “Post here to show you’re in the CR” thread, which probably suits some fine. However, I always viewed the intellectual aspect of the Coffee Room, not the social aspect, as its strong suit. A gutted, milquetoast Coffee Room where you can only smile and nod politely, and have to walk on eggshells for fear of offending someone who thinks differently is not my idea of a Coffee Room.

It looks like the consensus is to cloture this topic, and thus the mods will close it. But the Coffee Room is worse off for it. A bad precedent will have been established, as discussions start to get tabled for fear of offending.