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I had a doctor who kept prescribing antiobiotics for a cold-related. I developed allergies that I never used to suffer. I also noticed that he prescribed whatever drug he had a free tchatchke from. I switched to a different doctor who told me that my cough was caused by allergies and I should take cold medicine and use a steam inhaler. Works wonders.
There is a discussion in the gemara about clothing somewhere. Rabbi Yehuda Hanassi (or Levi his talmid- I forget my girsa deyankusa) says that the Persians (who dress in all black) are like angels of destruction, and the Jewish scholars (who dress in all-white) are like the ministering angels. Galachim wear black clothing as well.
Joseph, you yourself was modeh that Rav elchonon Wasserman ZT”L allowed college for parnassah.
I never took Political Science. The most useless course I took was calculus, and it turned out to be incredibly useful later in life. Furthermore, a Bachelor’s degree needs 120 credits. The parnassah available with an actual degree is not the same as a junior degree from COPE. That said, one should minimize the useless courses.
Joseph, a few questions, non-hostile:
1. What is your parnassah now?
2. Did you go to college to get that job?
3. If 2. is true, Are you a. regretting it, or b. merely pointing out the alternative shitos lehagdil Torah ulehaadirah?
Some here would call you a hypocrite if the answer to 3 (assuming 2) was b., but it’s not true. Yagdil Torah Veyaadir does include all relevant shitos. And as always, everyone should ask their poseik.
Joseph, I didn’t issue that psak abrogating the Chasam Sofer and this shita of Rav Shach ZT”L (which I still haven’t verified, and but I’ll be meiniach that it exists for argument’s sake). The poseik hador, Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L, did, along with the lack of a mention in the Aruch Hashulchan and the Mishna Brurah. So did Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky ZT”L, who said you teach a child in the language he understands. The Chasam Sofer’s psak was for Hungary, where “Chadash assur min haTorah”, and was not accepted by the Litvish community. My mesorah from my rabbeim is that Yiddish is not holy. My rebbe, who was from Lita and spoke Yiddish fluently, called Yiddish an “amaleikishe lashon”.Clearly his mesorah did not include the “mitzvah” of speaking yiddish. That “mitzvah” was left to the Bundists. He also used to stress the importance of spoeaking a fluent English in order to influence the masses toward Torah and mitzvah observance. Joseph, if you spoke English like a “Yinglishman”, would your posts and opinions here be half as effective?
The old yishuv used to learn in Lashon hakodesh, and only switched to Yiddish when Lashon hakodesh became confused with the ideologically dangerous ivrit, which was used as part of the prikas ol of the early rabidly secular Zionists. Today, Ivrit is the common tongue, and many shiurim are given in Ivrit.
If I’m abrogating the psak of the Chasam Sofer, aren’t you abrogating, negating, impugning and repudiating the psak of maran the Poseik Hador Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L? Two can play at this game. But let’s skip the games and focus on halacha. Halacha is, it’s not holy, at least according to the Litvish mesorah. Halacha and sources win debates, not naarish shtuchs.
Even lu yetzuyar it WAS holy (which it isn’t, according to my Rebbe muvhak, but I like Brisker lu yitzuyars), it could be that the Litvishe mesorah was NOT to make Yiddish holy because it would be giving credence to the Bundists. It’s the same reason why Tanach, Israel, and Moshiach are understressed in yeshivish circles. As I said, it’s a lu yitzuyar. But this way I’m not making a machlokes between the poseik hador Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L and the Chasam Sofer ZT”L.
I was told by a chaver who collects Yeshivishe maaselach that someone once told Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L that Rav Moshe ZT”L’s teshuva on a certain topic argued on the Chasam Sofer ZT”L. He said “Really? Thank you for telling me that!” He then went to his teshuva and penned at the bottom, “udelo kehaChasam Sofer ZT”L.” Our mesorah is Litvish psak, not Hungarian psak. Litvish psak, as per my rebbe and Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L is it’s not holy. I don’t believe Rav Shach ZT”L said it was holy as much as one should use a different language, or one should stick to tradition. Either way, either the Yeshivish community clearly didn’t pasken like him, or his psak is no longer relevant when nobody knows proper Yiddish anymore. It’s like the mechaber stating that one shouldn’t daven for the amud if he can’t pronounce the chiluk between an “aleph” and an “ayin”. As the Mishna Brurah says, this din is no longer relevant today when nobody can. I’m not abrogating his psak as much as I’m ignoring it due to its irrelevance in today’s day and age, when speaking a refined English is much more useful than speaking an unrefined Yinglish. The Gedolei Hador signed off on the Artscroll Revolution. And, of course, I have other poskim on my side.
The way shadchanim are abused by ungrateful boys, girls, and parents of same, they deserve every penny. If you feel it should be otherwise, “kraina de’igrissa, ihu lemahavei parvanka”, an Aramaic (there’s the word again) phrase meaning “take your own advice”. Go ahead, be a shadchan for free. We’d love to hear about your experiences.
I’m not talking about licentiousness. I’m talking about the doubts that plague today’s young couples.
For the record, this was not my chiddush. I heard it from my rabbeim. This was not an issur as much as it was good advice. Many took it, many ignored it. To each his/her own.
“Kol adam nichvas meichupaso shel chaveiro”.
We don’t wear the jacket they wore in Poland or in medieval Germany. We dress in what is today considered kavod. This includes a jacket and tie, since this is what we today perceive as kavod. In Afghanistan it would mean wearing a turban, but we’re not in Afghanistan.
I just realized that, as a New Yorker, it is in my economic interest to root for the Yankees to go all the way. It will generate much-needed revenue to help the city and state close massive budget shortfalls.
I feel sick.
Joseph, the only thing I saw is the Rambam that one is not allowed to support himself from others. The halacha is in Choshen Mishpat that if a toen says he has eidim or a rayah and he doesn’t bring them, then the halacha is paskened against him, and lu yiztuyer he brings his proof then hadar dina.
Wearing a colored shirt is perfectly muttar, as long as doing so is not a form of rebellion in your circles. Anything done for rebellion is assur. If it’s acceptable, then go ahead and wear your colored/ striped shirt.
By “support”, I mean no opposition. How is Touro any different from Project COPE? Touro doesn’t claim to have any shitos of being well-rounded. It is strictly for parnassah. Either nishtaneh hateva or someone gave Rav Elya Svei ZT”L misinformation. YU or YCT it’s not. It’s project COPE witjh a 4 year degree instead of 2.
Rav elya svei ZT”L is correct that it’s hard to be a Ben Torah when you’re dancing at 2 chasunahs. The best learning is when you finish college and cna learn without distraction. I have plenty of friends who are Rabbeim, shul rabbis, etc who went to college for parnassah and didn’t need it. I also have friends who are using their college degree and are glad they are. I also have a friend who was told NOT to attend college while in yeshiva, and now his family is seriously struggling with trying to earn a living a getting a degree to make enough to support said family without so much tzimtzum.
But as always, ask your LOR. I’m not anyone’s LOR and neither is Joseph.
Today, when people don’t wear hats but do wear ties, it is probably more of an inyan to wear a tie than a hat by davening. Look at the pictures of the world leaders. That is how today’s royalty dresses- jackets and ties, no hats. That said, when the whole Jewish world wears hats, one should probably wear one.
As for hats/ jackets by bentching, I believe the Be’er heitev says ituf is only noheig in Eretz Yisroel due to kavod hashechina.
Joseph, Rav Yosef Chaim Sonenfeld ZT”L actually DISAGREES with you re: Modern Hebrew. I read in the Yated or Hamodia (by Rav Sonenfeld’s Yahrtzeit) that after Ben-Yehuda died, some of his follwers came to him and asked him if this was a case of “binfol resha’im, rina”. He responded that we don’t know what sechar Ben Yehuda has in shomayim for getting people to speak Loshon Hakodesh, even if it’s corrupted. Ein Hashem Mekapeach sechar kol berya. Furthermore, he hopes Ben Yehuda is going to shomayim. While he fought against Ivrit, due to its harmful influence at the time, the familiarity of Israelis with Lashon Hakodesh helps them do teshuva faster, and helps chareidim learn more Torah. Furthermore, in Israel, Ivrit is the language of communication in most of the Chareidi sector. The ideology of Ivrit is gone, as the Chazon Ish said a while ago.
We also don’t know if the Chasam Sofer applies now. He was writing at a time when Jews were throwing off the yoke and leaving the shtetl, and throwing off Yiddish was part of the prikas ol. Today, English is the spoken language the way German was 500 years ago. It’s for the same reason that Rav Shach’s statement is no longer relevant, which is why we are left with the 3 big Litvishe poskim (Mishna Brurah, Aruch Hashulchan, Igros Moshe cited above in O”C 5) that Yiddish is a lashon chol, and the Jews shouldn’t have adopted the goyishe German names we now know as Yiddish names, except it’s too late to protest.
If you have the time to learn Yiddish, get a real mitzvah and learn Torah or say Tehillim. You are getting an actual mitzvah.
I heard that it is a problem for young couples because the young couple hasn’t finished bonding yet, and the guy/girl is looking at the other girl/guy and thinking she/he is better than his/her spouse. After a few years you have bonded and it doesn’t bother you.
Joseph, when engaging in a rishcha deoraysa in yeshiva, you don’t say “there’s a befeirus <insert favorite acharon or rosh Yeshiva sefer> against you, look it up”. Hamotzi michaveiro alav haray’ah. You are the mara deshmaytza, it is your achrayus to show your proof. Otherwise, no such rayah fakert. Plus, you’ll be mehaneh and mezakeh the oilam with a shtickle Toyrah, no matter who it’s going like.
YIVO in Manhattan has many bundist and Jewish Daily Forward acrchives showing how pervasive the socialist Yiddish movements were.
Joseph, the reason I am able to argue (lu yitzuyar I’m arguing, since you never actually quoted it for me to examine, so until I see it I can say “nisht da aza Rav Moshe)is because I heard otherwise from my Rebbe. He felt that kolel should be limited in length, after which one imitates Hashem and is mezakeh the rabbim. Such is the force of having a Rebbe.
His opposition never waned.The support of the previously mentioned gedolim (Rav Yaakov aminetzky ZT”L et al) never waned either. The fact that Project COPE was established with the help of the gedolim of the Moetzes shows that Rav Elya Svei ZT”L’s shita is a daas yachid neged harabbim.
Sammygol, LOL!
The chasam sofer and the Kuzari can both be fulfilled by speaking English with Lashon hakodesh thrown in. The question is, was the Chasam Sofer talking about zman hazeh, when the Jews are living mixed in a secular society, where talking a garbled English causes a chillul Hashem? Rav Mordechai Gifter ZT”L also spoke against bnei Yeshiva being “illiterate in 3 languages”.
Rav Yisroel Salanter called Yiddish “Jargon”. The big halacha seforim (Aruch Hashulchan, Mishna Brurah) call it “lashon Ashkenaz”. Rav Moshe calls it a lashon chol. So if the poskim don’t call it a lashon kodesh, who are we to call it a lashon kodesh? Every mitzvah has a mekor. No mekor, no mitzvah. The poskim don’t say Yiddish is a mitzvah. Therefore, it’s not a mitzvah. The halacha seforim followed in Lita either didn’t accept the Chasam Sofer as halacha lemaaseh, or thought it no longer applied (like my rav Shlit”a feels, as it’s a chillul Hashem to speak improper english in a country always looking to blame foreigners). What DOES apply is that one should always speak in a lashon nekiyah, pleasant and without curses, and one should learn torah and do mitzvos. American Chassidish yiddish moved from saying “effen der fenster” to “effen deh vindeh”. Holiness comes from saying “Torah tziva lanu Moshe”.
Joseph, please explain how YOU feel you have broad enough shoulders to argue on Rav Moshe ZT”L, the poseik Hador. Also, please quote where in the Igros Moshe the igra I’m allegedly arguing on is, so I can look it up inside for the next night seder in yeshiva. Thanks.
Cherrybim, my hostility to “Holy Yiddish” is because it isn’t holy. I have a right to follow the poseik hador, Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L, on this point, as well as my rebbe, a native yiddish speaker from Europe, who called it an “amaleikishe lashon”. The Mishna Brura didn’t call it a lashon hakodesh. Neither did the Aruch Hashulchan. to them, it was the lashon chol of the balagalos. Until I see a HALACHIC mekor for “heilige yiddish”, it’s bal tosif to say it. If someone made up a mitzvah and said pink bandannas were holy, I’d have the same hostility.
So let’s ignore the “hostility” and boil it down to one line- Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L paskened it’s NOT holy. He was the poseik hador for America. No such mitzvah .The end.
So far, the only Rambam actually quoted here is AGAINST Joseph.
Learning Torah, however, IS an ikkar. Working is like going to the bathroom in Yeshiva- it’s a temporary petur from learning, but it’s not learning.
Kollel is wonderful, and if someone supports you, it’s even more wonderful. but nobody has a chiyuv to support you, and nobody has a chiyuv to go into debt to support you. The extortion that goes on for shidduchim today is ridiculous and lacking menshlachkeit. Learning mitoch oni does wonders for one’s commitment to learning.
noitallmr, Sheker ein lo raglayim. there is a famous story (confirmed as true by his son) where Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky ZT”L came to America collecting for the Slabodka Kollel. He went to someone and told him that the person gave a certain amount the previous year. the guy proved from his records that he gave less, and that Rav Kaminetsky ZT”L was given false numbers. Rav Kaminetsky ZT”L quit on the spot. Sheker, even for tzedakah, is assur. Considering the outcry locally in the Yated, I’m not sure the fundraisers asked. It’s still a big tzedakah, though. But my sympathies were much more aroused by the emes I read about them than the heeby-jeeby “segulos” and yeshuos.
They have a Rambam link at the top.
just to clarify, I am fully in agreement that the ikkar is to learn, and that’s why were created.
Yated had an intertesting article in the Sukkos issue about the White Plains kollel. When it started, it was for 5 years only, and then they went out for klei kodesh.
In Sefer Shmuel , we see it was common to pay the navi for his help.
I was listening to someone by the shloshim of Rav Elya Svei ZT”L. He was trying to speak Yiddish but kept saying “from” instead of “fun”. I hope he was still yotzei the mitzvah of speaking Yiddish.
They translated the Torah into 70 languages. Why didn’t they translate it into Yiddish and tell everyone to learn Yiddish?
American and Israeli Yiddish speakers speak a completely different type of Yiddish. And even veteran Yiddish speaker have trouble translating Rav Levi Yitzchok’s “Gutt fun Avrohom”. Chanoch lenaar al pi darko means teaching people in the language they are familiar with, in the language in which they think. Why make Torah harder for no reason? Leave Yiddish to the Bundists the way we left ksav ivri for the Samaritans.
Joseph, can you please post the Hebrew of the Rambam purportedly backing you from Hebrewbooks.org?
It was proven it WASN’T, which is why the thread died after I posted the Igros Moshes. Historical revisionism won’t change the result, which is easily available to all who want to view it.
< a href=”http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/is-yiddish-holy/page/7#post-42152″> Yiddish is not holy.
Torah is holy. Mitzvos are holy. Lashon Chol (Yiddish, English, Spanish, etc) is not holy. As Rav Zalman Sorotzkin ZT”L said (last link), Focus on the 613 mitzvos we DO have, and Yiddish isn’t one of them. Bundists say it’s holy. Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L and Rav Zalman Sorotzkin ZT”L (2 native speakers) said it’s NOT holy. I would rather be with them than the Bundists.
Joseph, how does dressing in conservative goyishe attire achieve lo shinu es malbusheihem? The davening jacket is a short jacket instead of a long reckel, which is why the German Jews were called Yekkes- wearing short jackets instead of long coats.
PY, “arrogance” and “putting down others” are shnei dinim. The Nefesh Hachaim (the hosafos between shaar 3 and 4) allow learning for kavod at times, but not for kintur (ie, putting down others). But all agree that Torah is the most important thing. Torah to pu down others is a form of mitzvah haba’ah be’aveira.
the Torah is a version of Hashem’s name. furthermore, every letter corresponds to the shoresh neshama of someone, which is why it’s a mitzvah to see the writing by hagbah.
The meforshim say Hebrew is a lashon hakodesh. The Maharal (who lived at the time of “lashon ashkenaz”, a protoyiddish, added Aramic. He does NOT say Yiddish. The Kav Hayashar transltated his mussar sefer into “Lashon Ashkenaz” so the women could read it, but never said it was holy. In fatc, he says reading Lashon Hakodesh is good for ruchnius, but doesn’t say reading “lashon ashkenaz” is.
The Igros Moshe says the only difference between “Ettel” and “Ethel” is that it’s too late to protest “Ettel”.
Yiddish is a form of German. Lashon Hakodesh is holy. The Chazon Ish gave his haskama to teaching in Ivrit. The bundists insisted on only speaking Yiddish. I’d rather be like the Chazon Ish than a Bundist. Adding a mitzvah of speaking Yiddish is Bal Tosif. This was the one mitzvah of the bundists, but it’s not in my Torah.
Mepla, that was the point. Yeshivish way of dress evolved (or devolved) from the Slabodka standard of dressing in “conservative elegance”, to look like the respected goyim. This elevated the stature of yeshiva bochurim throughout Europe.
Hats and jackets for davening do have halachic basis (how you dress in front of an important person is by wearing a jacket, the hat from kavod or the idea you need a kisui kaved, or a version of ituf with the tallis). That said, sometimes it’s better to let them have little pleasures of rebellion and stave off bigger ones. Ask your LOR of course.
Joseph, Rav aharon kotler ZT”L did not have a selfish “es kumt mir” attitude, as he was involved in Being mezakeh the rabbim and tzorchei tzibbur. His kollel was NOT gashmius-oriented. His shita of ONLY learning, however, was his owen, not one he got from his rabbeim, as the slabodka kollel was limited to yechidei segulah to prepare them to be klei kodesh in being mezakeh the rabbim. The selfish “es kumpt mir” expressed in this article (a complete distortion of the baal middos a kolel man is meant to be, as an elevated eved Hashem) is NOT what Rav aharon kotler ZT”L meant.
Torah is the best sechorah. Bad middos can ruin good sechora like a fly in good ointment.
noitallmr- agreed 100%. They do great work. These are real aniyim, not fakers. Like I said, I would give them tzedakah DESPITE their advertising. But the hezek done by their advertising can’t be ignored.
Yes to giving them money, no to believing their fliers.
israelbochur, this comes from the Rambam and the Orchos Tzaddikim, who bases it on the possuk of ki malah Aretz Deah es Hashem (Yeshayahu 11 or haftarah of 8th day Pesach for those of a yeshivish bent), that we will be free to study Torah and gain knowledge of Hashem. I am not familiar with his writings, but he can’t be arguing on the Rambam and the Orchos Tzaddikim, so I will assume that he isn’t until I see proof that he is.
Yiddish has NO kedusha. Sources brought in the thread Joseph quoted, including many proofs from the Igros Moshe. It’s a nice language, but why should one Germanic-rooted language (Yiddish) be holier than another (English)?
Ktzoys, is this another of the leitzonus threads?
israelbochur, the scientists will be gentiles helping out the Jews so the Jews will be free to study Torah. It’s in the Rambam, and was popularized by a Miami Boys song back in 1993..
“ela kedei sheyihyu pneuyim baTorah, ubechochmasah, ukedei shyizku lechayey haolam haba”
Wine was made exclusively with fermentation. The highest alcoholic content available via fermentation is 16-20%. They diluted the wine to make it palatable, not because it was too alcoholic, unless nishtaneh hatevah. There is archaeologial evidence that the ancient Egyptians and other had distillation. It’s possible they had hard liquor, but not known for sure. From Wikipedia:
Early types of distillation were known to the Babylonians in Mesopotamia (in what is now Iraq) from at least the 2nd millennium BC.[2] Archaeological excavations in northwest Pakistan have yielded evidence that the distillation of alcohol was known in the Indian subcontinent since 500 BC,[3] but only became common between 150 BC – 350 AD.[3] Distillation was later known to Greek alchemists from the 1st century AD,[4][5][6] and the later development of large-scale distillation apparatus occurred in response to demands for spirits.[4] According to K. B. Hoffmann the earliest mention of “destillatio per descensum” occurs in the writings of Aetius, a Greek physician from the 5th century.[7] Hypatia of Alexandria is credited with having invented an early distillation apparatus,[8] and the first clear description of early apparatus for distillation is given by Zosimos of Panopolis in the fourth century.[6] Primitive tribes of India used a method of distillation for producing Mahuda liquor. This crude and ancient method is not very effective.[9]
The invention of highly effective “pure distillation” is credited to Arabic and Persian chemists in the Middle East from the 8th century. They produced distillation processes to isolate and purify chemical substances for industrial purposes such as isolating natural esters (perfumes) and producing pure alcohol.[10] The first among them was Jabir ibn Hayyan (Geber), in the 8th century, who is credited with the invention of numerous chemical apparatus and processes that are still in use today. In particular, his alembic was the first still with retorts which could fully purify chemicals, a precursor to the pot still, and its design has served as inspiration for modern micro-scale distillation apparatus such as the Hickman stillhead.[11] The isolation of ethanol (alcohol) as a pure compound through distillation was first achieved by the Arab chemist Al-Kindi (Alkindus).[12] Petroleum was first distilled by the Persian alchemist Muhammad ibn Zakar?ya R?zi (Rhazes) in the 9th century, for producing kerosene,[13] while steam distillation was invented by Avicenna in the early 11th century, for producing essential oils.[14]
As the works of Middle Eastern scribes made their way to India and became a part of Indian alchemy, several texts dedicated to distillation made their way to Indian libraries.[15] Among these was a treatise written by a scholar from Bagdad in 1034 titled Ainu-s-Sana’ah wa’ Auna-s-Sana’ah.[15] Scholar Al-Jawbari travelled to India.[16] By the time of the writing of the Ain-e-Akbari, the process of distillation was well known in India.[17]
Distillation was introduced to medieval Europe through Latin translations of Arabic chemical treatises in the 12th century.[18] In 1500, German alchemist Hieronymus Braunschweig published Liber de arte destillandi (The Book of the Art of Distillation)[19] the first book solely dedicated to the subject of distillation, followed in 1512 by a much expanded version. In 1651, John French published The Art of Distillation the first major English compendium of practice, though it has been claimed[20] that much of it derives from Braunschweig’s work. This includes diagrams with people in them showing the industrial rather than bench scale of the operation.
Sammygol, I heard this from my rabbeim, so I can’t take credit for it. They pointed it out that it’s a way to feel frum without undertaking serious change (middos etc).
Joseph, I had the zechus to learn in kollel. It was one of the most wonderful periods of my life. It starts off the family on the right foot, and imbues the home with a sense of ruchnius. When a person dies, a person isn’t asked how much money he made or how many initials followed his last name. I actually agree with most of the article. the problem, however, is that it includes a few krumkeits which ruin the entire article.
1. MOST people aren’t on the level of Rabbi Shimon Bar yochai. Putting pressure on everybody to attempt to be this is one of things causing kids to go off the derech. The kiymu vekiblu of Bayis sheini caused more learning than the kafal aleihem har kegigis by Har Sinai. This pressure is causing kids to feel that if they can’t learn all day, they can’t be frum yidden.
2. It’s a mitzvah to support Torah scholars. However, the article comes across with an “es kumt mir” attitude which has been deletorious to the Torah community. People in shidduchim make excessive demands of the prospective in-laws because “es kumt mir”- we’re learnign we deserve the best. Like you said, Torah comes from the bei aniyim, which the Maharal explains (IIRC) because aniyim aren’t established in this world due to their lack of gashmius, and Torah is the opposite of gashmius. Many of today’s kollel yungeleit live a fancier lifestyle than is necessary, putting an undue burden both on their parents and in-laws and on those who married a bas talmid chacham instead of a bas am ha’aretz with money.
3. the article implies that the chiyuv is to learn, but there’s no chiyuv to impart that knowledge. Yet, The gedolim of the past felt completely differently. One way you know a hashkafah that isn’t 100% correct is its lack of sustainability. Both TIDE and Torah Umadda have their best and brightest go out to the working field, and the mechanchim and rabbonim come from more yeshivish circles, making it hard to continue the derech another generation. A derech where one learns but doesn’t teach is unsustainable as well. We say in shemonah esrei, “Ata chonen… umelamed”. As Rav Baruch Ber ZT”L said, Hashem is a melamed. This is the biggest thing. The act of giving over Torah to the next generation. The chazon Ish said one can be selfish until he’s 30, because until then his torah is like a cistern (limited) instead of a fountain (unlimited). After 30, one has a chiyuv to teach.
Someone I know suggested that you were no longer in yeshiva. I disagreed with him, but you admitted it when you say you hadn’t the zechus of learning in kollel. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, as not everyone has the support or zitzfleish to learn. That doesn’t mean there is no chiyuv to learn what he can now, and I do thanl you for bringing it up. We will all be learning in kollel when moshiach comes, but it will be the “yomim asher ein bahem cheifetz”. Learning Torah and doing mitzvos now is like buying stocks on March 8, 2009. Everyone laughs at you, but you have the last laugh some months later.
Apparently, the source is in Norman Lamm’s book. I found a blog discussing an audio clip on YU’s website called “Concise Methodological Manifesto ” or rabbi Jeremy Wieder of YU. He addresses that quote in this audio. If he says it exists, then it exists. From the blog:
[Someone asks <Rabbi Jeremy Wieder>, “there’s actually a deah that Rabbi Lamm brings in his book Torah U-Madda that you would make a bracha on machshirim.”]
You know, I happen to have a nice relationship with Dr. Lamm, and I won’t want to do what one of my no-longer-present colleagues did who got up, and, you know, made fun of the book and something like that, I think it was one of the things he picked on–I don’t know what deah that is, I think its a silly deah [student tries to interject] I understand that, I understand that. I think that part of the problem that disturbs me about that point of view is that it makes the assumption that if it weren’t talmud Torah then maybe we shouldn’t be doing it. That may not be what the deah says, but I don’t think you make a bracha on your calculus or your physics–even though I think they are magnificent subjects, I don’t mean to exclude history either, it’s of a different nature–I’m belying my science and math roots here–I like things that tend more towards absolute truth then not, postmodernists aside, but the fact is that I think they’re incredibly valuable, I think the study of–particularly the natural sciences–for many people, maybe the humanities for others–can be incredibly religiously inspiring, spiritually inspiring, morally furthering and they’re wonderful enterprises. They’re just not talmud Torah. For me, personally, what I’ve chosen as my life’s enterprise is talmud Torah. But I think that there are many different darkhei ha-chayim, and even for the person whose primary occupation is talmud Torah there are other valuable subjects to study, but you don’t have to call them talmud Torah for them to be valuable.
PY, there was a discussion in the Jewish Observer a while back. Norman Lamm wrote in to defend himself. In regard to the question of making the bracha (or birchas haTorah) on the chemistry lab (as Torah and Madda are both 2 parts of the same whole in his philosophy), he said that he never actually said halacha lemaasaeh that that’s what one should do. Rather, it was a hypothetical, based on his line of reasoning. The JO responded that if that was the logical conclusion of his philosophy, then whether or not he goes so far as to say it is irrelevant, as it shows the whole shtus of his philosophy. You can agree or disagree with the JO as you choose. However, his essay did propose making a bracha on the chemistry lab, as Torah and Madda were 2 halves of a whole.
As much as my rabbonim hold college for parnassah is muttar, they never said that when you die, Hashem will ask you “kavata itim lemadda?” They will ask you asakta bene’emanus,
I saw somthing interesting in the Sukkos issue of mishpacha, which I confirmed after Sukkos via googling it. Sir Isaac Newton was a Hebraist, and studied the Rambam in depth. There are pictures of his notes on his Hebrew studies. We run to madda for wisom, and he’s running to Torah for wisdom. Hebrew University had a display of his documents showing his studies.
Joseph, but if she didn’t get a secular education AND became chassidish, she STILL wouldn’t have hair…
What’s wrong with Taaruvos in YWN Coffee Room? Some yeshivish discussion of nosein taam lefgam, a thread of nat bar nat deheteira, kavush kemevushal, maybe even a thread discussing the various machloksin between the Shach and the Ketzos on Sfeik Sfeika…
Oh. you mean THAT kind of Taaruvos. Never mind.
In Slabodka they adopted “conservative elegance” as the dress mode. This meant wearing whatever nice shirts and colored suits businessmen would wear. As the yeshivish element became entranced with Chassidus, suits became black and shirts became white. While a few yeshivos resist, this is the reality now. So there is no “one-size-fits-all” answer with colored shirts. Depends on your circle.
Rabbi Yossi Rosenberg, in a Yated column (he’s a regular), mentioned a story of a girl he knows who didn’t have a husband. So she took all her money, which she had saved up for kollel, and gave it to one of these organizations. Now she has no money AND no husband, and she has been disillusioned.
Tzedakah is great. Sheker is wrong. Give them tzedakah, but ignore the fliers and “yeshuos”.
Joseph, thiese quotes sound like one shouldn’t work:
Sitting and learning all day is the ideal. “Talmud Torah kneged kulam.” Chazal say, one word of Torah is higher than an entire lifetime of doing these Mitzvos. Chazal often mention that Toroso Umnoso is the ideal, that we do nothing all day but learn. Nowadays poskim say that w cannot reach that level, but clearly the closer the better. Also, Shulchan Aruch Hilchos Toalmud Torah, in the Shach ad loc, says that nowadays learning all day is the ideal, and that if someone has the ability to do it, he should. The Shach adds that regarding learning all day in general, nowadays we cannot reach our potential in learning the way the Rambam etc. did, since we are not on that level. Therefore, we should learn all day if we can.
The Rambam writes that a “working person” is someone who learns 8 hours a day and works 3. Not works 9am to 5pm.
A few other falsehoods that need responding:
1) All Chazals, such as Im ain kemach ain torah, just means that if you have no food, you cannot learn. Other Chazals say that if you have no food and you try to learn anyway, you will end up having to steal to eat, and what good is that. None of this has anything to do with Kollel. If you are supported by your parents, in laws, Yeshiva, or wife, you are not in a situation where you have to steal, and you have fulfilled the Chazal.
2) All Chazals that encourage people to work are also fulfilled by our Kollel people, and only exclude someone who has no means of support. Learning in Kollel is 100% a legitimate parnasa. If I become a baseball player and I have people pay to watch me play ball, thats OK, but if I become a scholar and have people pay me to learn – that’s not?? If I got a job in a think-tank thinking of stuff all day, that’s wonderful – but if I get a job in Kollel thinking of Chidushei Torah that’s not?? Why should learning be any less? B’H today we have people who specifically want to support Kollelim, similar to Yissachar-Zevulun. If I were hired by these people to dance for them, I would be considered having a job. And it is no worse if they hire more to learn and provide them with Olam Habah instead of entertainment.
The exhortations in Chazal against being unemployed refer to those who have nobody who wants to pay them for anything, and are forced to take money form what was designated for the poor, which they do not have to be if they would get a job. But Kollel is not Tzedakah for aniyim. There is a big difference. Kollel support is support in return for learning. Tzedakah is support in return for nothing. As long as I am earning your support – regardless of whether it is through defending you in court or learning Choshen Mishpat – I am employed.
Havesomeseichel, agreed 100%.
There are 3 questions being debated:
1. Is college a chiyuv to become a better Jew?
2. Is it muttar to go to college for to learn secular studies for the sake of secular studies?
3. Is it muttar to go for parnassah?
Even Joseph is modeh to #3, so the only debate is 1 & 2.
I just stick to vodka when I drink, which is rare. After the first shot of anything, you don’t taste it anyway. Throw in an ice cube (which connoisseurs detest) and you lose all taste anyway. It’s all advertising. Stick with Old Williamsburgh.