golfer

Hi writersoul,

-“plenty of women would jump at the the kind of learning that you say they are incapable of.”

Did I quote you correctly?

First of all, I’m not the one saying women are incapable of anything. The OP started by quoting a Rambam regarding learning Torah that we’re trying to understand. He states there that “Rov hanashim ein da’atan mechuvenes l’hislamed..” and as a result their learning leads to “divrei havai.” DY suggested that the Rambam might be referring to a skill set required for Gemara, not necessarily what we know as logical thought. Even if we want to say, as b y maidel said, that today the amount of women capable of learning is no longer a minority (for some reason), the question remains- what exactly was the Rambam referring to?

And the question of the OP still stands- “What worth is there for women learning Torah?”

The question is not just one of how capable or intelligent women are. And for all the women who joined to tell us about the learning they do and the shiurim they attend, neither I nor anyone else here is questioning their intelligence or accomplishment.

I think the Gemara in Nedarim that some of you mentioned does state that a father should teach both his sons and daughters “Mikra”. I was quite satisfied originally with apushata’s suggestion that women receive their schar on the level of aino metzuva v’oseh, but are we positively sure that in all cases a woman is not metzuvah?

GAW is not closing the thread until we are mechalek between an Eved and an Isha with regard to learning Torah. Instead of we ladies trying to prove how smart we are, maybe we should get out of the way (please note, I’m ducking as I type this) to allow those more familiar with the relevant sugyos to draw a satisfactory conclusion to the OP’s original question.

Apushata, I think you gave the clearest answer yet to the OP’s question. Maybe we should leave it at that.

(But please use your shift key for HKB”H)

Interjection, please prove that you’re a smart woman and your reading comprehension is good!

I specifically noted that the issue is NOT a woman’s lack of intelligence.

Modern scientific advances in brain mapping continue to confirm that a woman’s brain does function differently than a man’s brain, and both are superior in different areas.

Does it make you feel slighted or inferior that the One who created your brain, formed it to perform tasks that are not identical to those of your husband?

To me it’s just another beautiful manifestation of the perfection of His handiwork.

Am I the only one here who remembers Haifagirl?

And wonders why she stopped posting?

Mods, can you preserve the dignity of the CR & repair this thread’s title please?

Then we can get back to Dr M & his MMM…

The ones with lashon hara in the title.

T613, agreed.

And I second your motion, Logician, but I was disappointed that you left out of the discussion list, seminary applications, seminary info, seminary types, and the shidduch crisis.

Also, it’s one thing to have the eminent Talmudicians of the CR weigh in on Halacha and hashkafa, but I think quoting Sefer Yetzirah here is getting a bit carried away.

B y maidel, re your comments on feminism- agreed, the feminist movement had some good ideas (equal pay for equal work comes to mind). So did some other “ism”s, including socialism and communism. But we Jews have survived the millennia by following the Torah, which provides us with all the ideology we need. And the role of the woman is clearly defined. With regard to limud Torah, a central mitzvah and part of our lives, the woman’s role is supportive. This in no way makes you a chameleon, and you certainly don’t change, as you suggested, with whatever your husband is. As another poster mentioned (Logician?) you receive your schar for performing your supportive role, independent of your husband’s (or your children’s) success in learning.

A woman is primarily giving of herself to others. If you study her 3 Mitzvos, you will notice that in each of them she is providing something (light, sustenance, kedushah) to her family. They’re not mitzvos, like bentshing lulav, that exist only in the realm of the performer and his Creator; they are performed by committing oneself to others.

And to Gavra- yes, a woman does get schar for learning. But she is (in most cases) not a metzuveh v’oseh in this capacity, so her schar is not the same as a man’s. (One might argue that the yetzer hara’s battle to stop her from learning is less as well.) As for a man carpooling his kids to Yeshiva, I’m not sure where he stands as far as being metzuveh, but it would seem that for him this is part of the obligation to teach Torah to his children.

Interjection, where did you get the idea that women are viewed as tools created for male entertainment? Certainly not in the Jewish world. Look at all the meforshim discussing Chava’s creation. And look around you at our frum society today. I don’t see it and I’m curious where you get that idea. A woman and a man joined by kiddushin do have obligations to each other; in fact the man has a clear obligation to make sure his wife is entertained. I’m not comfortable commenting on non-Jewish society, but as a Jewish woman I’ve never been made to feel like an object or a tool.

I believe there is a rule here in the CR about not using all caps. But I’m hoping the mods let this through. Because if there was ever an occasion for all caps, this is it!

THANK YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU !!!!

And YES, I believe you’re you!

And YES, I’m still laughing!

That’s it then.

Maharat Oomis.

I like the way that sounds.

Fellow CR Members!

We have a real genuine celebrity on board today.

Mind your spelling and grammar.

And your manners!

Owners obviously couldn’t care less about a fellow Yid. Or a fellow human being, for that matter.

It might be interesting to expose them by posting their names, but that may not be such a good idea.

Agree, though, that this unusual winter is bringing us (in addition to all that white, now blackish greyish brown stuff) a new insight into which of our neighbors are beneath any semblance of mentshlichkeit.

Dear Mr Yash & Pem, who may or may not be Rocky, but probably is,

In honor of a special edition of the FJJ, (maybe one of the anniversaries??) you wrote a questionnaire about our distinguished neighborhood and its denizens. I have never laughed so hard in my life. If I was one of the younger posters here, I’d have all kinds of acronyms containing the letter L (for laughter), F (for floor) and others I can’t seem to keep track of, to prove this point. Regrettably, I did not manage to save it for posterity before it was recycled by the great City of NY’s sanitation department. If you really are Rocky, I would be eternally grateful (Not kidding!) if you would post it here. Or persuade your esteemed editors to reprint it in honor of Adar.

With all due respect to the honorable contributors to the pages of the FJJ, I’m sure you know your letter is the first (and sometimes only) column we look for every week.

Thanking you in advance,

A Faithful Fan

DY, I also thought I was being advised to burn the Yated’s advice.

(A common reaction, by the way, when receiving advice, is to want to incinerate the advice or the advisor, instead of graciously and wisely processing the suggestion, and considering if or how to implement it.)

Back on topic, you wouldn’t believe how many people still think it’s smart (it’s not; it’s dangerous) to put all kinds of strange kitchen products on a burn. I was told by someone pretending to quote a “study” to put raw egg whites on a burn!

I’m glad you knew better, oomis. Your post had me wincing and cringing in pain. Ouch! If we weren’t all so anonymous here, I’d ship you a pair of thick oven mitts!

Sssallee u’mtzudasi … With a samech,

A Shira of Dovid Hamelech A”H.

I used to love that song.

Agreed Goq agreed.

Most especially if it’s baked by a septuagenarian grandmother.

You’re kidding, T613, right?

Bimechilas kvoidoi, popa should Not be on this thread.

Me too, SaysM.

Thanks oomis!

As my kids used to say to each other endlessly, “You started it!”

Also Syag, it’s Adar.

And some people have more to think about in Adar than how they’re going to get the right little liqueur bottles to match their hamentashen, their baby’s headband, their goldfish, and their 4 year old’s fireman boots.

Apushata, did you know you just weighed in with post # 200 ?!

And I just started page 5 ?!

All in only 2 weeks.

I suppose when you combine the concept of shidduchim with the word money you generate a lot of interest.

I wonder if anyone will ever post a title combining shidduchim, money, and cholent recipes…

Thanks T6!

Torah613, did you just move here from the thread about people who didn’t have measuring cups? Can you be a little more specific about the amount of flour in that kishke? And the oil? And did you saute the vegetables in the oil first? Sounds nice, but I’m scared to make a mess of it without some measurements / directions.

Thanks!

That was very interesting WIY. Thanks for posting. But the Alter writes it as something understood and accepted, without offering a source. So I’m left wondering. I know it can’t be a narishkeit, as Popa said, if the Alter writes it so clearly; but is there actually an earlier source for these words?

Health, you don’t own a copy of Emunah U’Bitachon? You should really get yourself one. It’s a thin unassuming Sefer that won’t take you long to read. The Hebrew is, for the most part, basic and uncomplicated. Internalizing the concepts is the work of a lifetime, and not simple at all. But it will definitely get you headed in the right direction. I found it amazing to see how a Gadol from a different world could speak to the heart of someone so far removed from him intellectually, spiritually and geographically.