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“everyone needs to have a Rav who they follow. If you have a Rav whose derech hachaim you follow – whatever it is – you are in good shape. And, if you don’t – you’re in trouble. “
Amen and amen.
“YU will encourage their many many semicha recipients to fan out across the country to lead congregations, some that are borderline conservative”
And in the past ten years Yeshivat Chovevei Torah has been even more aggressive in encouraging their talmidim to go to small communities in the interest of building them up.
“We speak a pure English, not mixed in with all kinds of Yeshivishe and Yiddish words.”
I heard a story about one Rosh Yeshiva at YU. A talmid asked a question during shiur in heavy Yeshivish. The RY asked him to restate the question in his choice of language: English, Yiddish, or Hebrew were all acceptable. The point is that we should use proper grammar and vocabulary in whatever language we use.
‘Can I add that according to the Conservative “party line”, you should be shomer shabbos and kashrus, however most who identify as “conservative” are not. ‘
One distinction between “Conservative” and “Modern Orthodox” is that it is almost impossible to find any community that calls itself “Conservative” in which most of those who identify with it keep Shabat and kashrut. But there are many, many MO communities that are bursting at the seams with Jews who keep Shabat and kashrut.
“I highly doubt that Rav Solovetchik labeled himself a Modern Orthodox Rav. “
I’m unaware of him using the term. But he certainly supported university education, which is the most notable characteristic of the MO derech. He, his wife, his son, both daughters, and both sons-in-law all earned doctorates in secular subjects. He also was extremely emphatic on making education available to women as well as men.
Ok, here I go:
“denim jeans, “
I don’t own any denim clothing.
“sneakers,”
I wear canvas Converse sneakers two days a year: Tisha B’Av and Yom Kippur.
“baseball caps,”
I keep a baseball cap in my backpack in case I ever need to enter a non-kosher restaurant to use the restroom. Otherwise I wear a black velvet yarmulka at all times except when showering and sleeping.
” movies,”
I’m not against movies, but I haven’t been in a movie theatre in several years. We occasionally rent classic movies using Netflix, most recently “How Green Was My Valley”.
” novels,”
I sometimes read novels; I recently completed the Harry Potter series and a few years ago completed Herman Wouk’s two novels of World War Two and the Shoah, “The Winds of War” and “War and Remembrance”. I’ve also read, “The Caine Mutiny” and his three books on Judaism.
” sports,”
I used to be a sports fan, but don’t follow it much any more. I recently visited New Orleans and didn’t realize that their NFL team had won the Super Bowl until I saw the congratulations billboards.
” tv,”
We don’t own a TV.
“radio,”
I listen to radio a lot — mostly WQXR, the classical music station.
” newspapers,”
I read newspaper sites on the internet.
” magazines,”
I subscribe to *Scientific American*, *The Atlantic*, and *The New Republic*.
” politics,”
Left wing Democrat. No, correct that — not all that far to the left, certainly not a socialist. Just left wing compared to a lot of the commenters on frum sites.
” college, university education.”
That is probably the thing that really does distinguish “modern orthodox” from other Torah paths. We see that Jews have been attending university since the time of the rishonim and see no reason to change that mesorah. And we see it as a l’chatchila not a b’dieved.
That said, university education isn’t for everyone. I would suggest that non-Jews and Jews alike might be better off postponing university until they are mature enough to get the most benefit for their tuition — and for Jews, until they have learned enough Torah to distinguish the hashkafah of Rambam from taht of Ayn Rand.
‘Neither the Rambam ZT”L nor the Vilna Gaon ZT”L nor the Baal Shem Tov ZT”L did ever advocate women wearing pants’
Given that modern trousers didn’t exist during their lifetimes, how could they have?
Worthy of note is that the dati leumi community in Israel generally follows the derech of Rav Kook z’tz’l and his talmidim rather than that of Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l. There are many differences between these two non-charedi paths.
“Rambam and Chasidus was accepted as 100% legit by all Gedolim of subsequent doros. MO was not. “
R’Soloveitchik was very close to R’Kotler z’tz’l, R’Hutner z’tz’l, and the Lubavicher Rebbe z’tz’l even though they disagreed on many matters. R’Kotler even had R’Soloveitchik speak at a fundraising dinner for Chinuch Atzmai. Also notable is that R’Soloveitchik was a member of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah of Agudath Israel of America while still in his 30s, before he became a Rosh Yeshiva, while he was still teaching secular philosophy to undergraduates and after he started a co-ed school. So clearly a large segment of the Torah community in America accepted him.
“Helpful, how many doros has it been since R’ Soloveitchik zt”l? 2 or 3? “
Not even one. He was niftar in 1993. Most of his leading talmidim are still teaching at YU or in Israel.
“But one would do well to be sure that s/he is following a live expositor of those shitos, for the reality check value and to have a shaichus to someone IRL. “
This is true for any derech. My rav consistently paskens like Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l whenever he personally heard a mesorah from him — even when it is a daat yachid.
“Today, Rabbi Dr. Walter Wertzberger”
Unfortunately Rabbi Wurzberger was niftar over eight years ago.
“In 1921, because of the WWI immigration, the school had over 200 students.”
And that was a miracle given the circumstances. I’m only aware of one orthodox high school that is older — the Rabbi Jacob Joseph School.
It is not clear that Rabbi Belkin’s vision was anything like that of Rabbi Revel. The former started many graduate and professional schools; it is pretty clear that Rabbi Revel’s focus was always on the rabbinical school (even though he was a strong supporter of secular education). Also, Rav Soloveitchik publicly opposed Rabbi Belkin’s separation of the rabbinical school from the rest of YU.
“Universities can be dangerous places for Jews who come unprepared. I want to cry every time I hear a supposedly frum Jew spouting philosophy from Ayn Rand. “
And that is on top of the social situation, full of licentiousness and temptation.
‘Indeed, R. Hirsch emphasized the need to be extremely careful when learning “secular” subjects so as to be able to tell the difference between those ideas that are consistent with Torah and those that are not. ‘
It should be noted that every pre-modern and early modern Jew whom I have found who pursued university education — and the number is in the hundreds and included Rambam and Sforno — had extensive torah education prior to commencing university studies. The idea that the torah forbids university education is simply untenable: You just can’t say that Sforno was not an observant Jew! Yet the extremism coming from the anti-modern polemicists here causes us to avoid a serious issue: Universities can be dangerous places for Jews who come unprepared. I want to cry every time I hear a supposedly frum Jew spouting philosophy from Ayn Rand.
“I’d stick with my group. “
And I’ll stick with R’Hirsch, R’Hildesheimer, R’Reines, R’Herzog, R’Revel, R’Weinberg, R’Soloveitchik, R’Lichtenstein, R’Sacks….
“I too, consistent with my adherence to R. Hirsch’s approach, and strongly anti-zionist”
It is a bit of an overgeneralization to say this, but I think the main difference between R’Hirsch the other “modern orthodox” rabbis I mentioned (and they would simply call themselves orthodox) is that three of the four I mentioned were outspoken Zionist leaders. (R’Weinberg was the exception.)
It should be noted that the Zionism of R’Reines and R’Soloveitchik was quite different from the Zionism of Rav Kook.
“we live in a country where you can make a parnassa without
college, with no miracles needed”
That may have been true a generation ago. I’m not sure it is today. And in any case if there is no university education for Jews, there are no Jewish doctors, lawyers, accountants, nurses….
“Rav Soloveichik articulated a reasoning, namely, survival. Obviously, he was wrong. His reasoning was based on his vision of the future, his own opinion of what will be, and what needs to be done. He stated clearly that only his derech will be successful and the others will fail. “
Not so obvious. I haven’t noticed many modern orthodox schools closing recently.
“Zionists are the offspring of Amalek”
We don’t hold by that opinion. And Zionists have plenty of gedolim on which to rely.
“There were no rabbis – great or otherwise – who articulated a philosophy that they referred to as MO. “
Try Rabbi Yitzchak Yaacov Reines z’tz’l, Rabbi Yitzhak HaLevi Herzog z’tz’l, Rabbi Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg z’tz’l, and Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik z’tz’l, four gedolim. They didn’t use the term (I think it came later) but they reflect that hashkafah. And Rav Weinberg much more than Rav Schwab was probably the person whose hashkafah most accurately followed that of Rav Hirsch. Note also that Rav Herzog, Rav Weinberg, and Rav Soloveitchik all earned doctorates.
“The rabbonim in charge of RIETS at the time were against secular studies”
This is an actual lie. Rabbi Bernard Revel z’tz’l not only approved of secular studies, he himself had a PhD. (It was actually a major contribution to Torah knowledge as he found that the Karaites were not really liked to earlier movements that denied the validity of the oral law.)
‘There are those who also maintain that Rav Hirsch’s policies were “horaas shaah”, meaning that they were an emergency measure needed for the Jews at that place in that time only,’
You can’t get that from what Rav Hirsch actually published.
“The problem with learning secular subjects is that it is prohibited”
That ‘prohibition’ was NOT accepted as halachah. The number of gedolim with advanced secular education is now rather large. I made an earlier comment that listed a number of them but the moderators deleted it.
“In his days, the non-secular studies Jews did not even learn the German language. “
German Jews had pretty much given up Yiddish by then. Note that all of his Torah writings were in modern German.
“Today, all Yeshiva students speak English, go to HS (99%), and can function in the world perfectly.”
Not true. I personally have met many yeshiva grads who are functionally illiterate in English.
“There is no need for BA’s or PHD’s to accomplish what was necessary to accomplish in Germany in the days of RSRH.”
No, advanced degrees are even more important today than then.
“I’m afraid you need to voice a public machaah against your own distortions on this issue. The fact that you find charliehall, an admitted extreme (well, he wont admit to the extreme but will everything else) left-wing modern orthodox pseudo-academic, as your backup speaks volumes.”
I admit no extremism except in the pursuit of truth. You, however, promote falsehood and distortion. Your claims regarding Rav Hirsch are flatly contradicted by Rav Hirsch’s own writings. You are, to put it simply, a liar.
And I am no pseudo-academic but someone with over six dozen peer-reviewed articles in scientific journals. How many do you have?
“But my question here is – WHO IS THE VICTIM?”
No victims. But assuming he is Ashkenazic and gave his wife a standard Ashkenazic Orthodox ketubah, he has a halachic obligation to support her, even if he has to quit yeshiva. Even if he has the potential to become the gedol hador. (I think Sefardim may actually be able to put stipulations in the ketubah; any Sefardim able to confirm?)
” I would respond that a person should go with the Roiv or mainstream Shita”
Very few of us are sufficiently learned to even determine what the rov is in any particular question in a reasonable time. My own rav’s rav was an acknowledged gedol and he always follows him when he has a mesorah from him — on the leniencies and on the stringencies. Not only is that consistent with the halachic process, it preserves mesorah for the future! Some day, someone else might need my rav’s leniencies.
“someone who needed to attend a conference and was unsure about whether or not to wear his yarmulka”
I just finished attending a professional conference in another city, one with a tiny frum community. I gave two talks at the conference, on consecutive days, the first time I’ve ever done that. And I wore my black velvet yarmulka while giving both talks. I also insisted that the talks not be on or close to Shabat. At this conference attended by thousands of professionals I did not see anyone else in a yarmulke. I am proud to be a Jew and am willing to show it.
“If your Rav says the bourbon is 100% ok, there’s no reason not to listen to his psak.”
And that holds true for EVERY area of halachah. Aseh l’cha rav is a commandment in the mishnah and it is there for a reason. Even if every gedol in the world disagrees with your rav, you follow your rav and not the gedolim as long as he has legitimate semichah and has a connection to the mesorah.
“Nobody says that people should learn secular subjects to be civilized. “
Actually the members of the Sanhedrin were required to have a lot of secular knowledge.
“Take up all your baale batisha issues with the heilige Chasam Sofer. “
No need for us to do so — Rav Hirsch z’tz’l already did.
Rav Hirsch’s take on separation is much more sensible. He held that Jews did not suffer from being ghettoized because during that time there was little that the non-Jewish European world had to offer in terms of culture or intellectual advances. The Torah provides us the roadmap for negotiating the world, allowing us to make distinctions between the inspirational and the degrading.
“In these establishments they also sell sandwiches.”
I don’t think Starbuck’s sells sandwiches.
I don’t drink coffee, ever. (Well I’ve had two cups in my life, most recently in 1980.) So I’m not shuddering.
“You can really go into a pilpul that they serve only Mezonos (Cake)”
By that argument a vegetarian Chinese restaurant would be in the same category, as it would likely not serve any kind of bread.
Give me a break!
YU has a lot of right wing guys who don’t plan to learn forever. And with their college degrees they can do pretty well, career wise.
How is Starbucks not a restaurant? They serve food and drink, and are licensed and inspected as restaurants.
So wrong,
I have no idea what you are talking about. We don’t have a tv, don’t go swimming, and my wife covers her hair and wears long skirts.
Well, to each his/her own, but I do not find the MO derech and limud either stale, stagnant, or fossilized. However, it indeed might not be correct to call it “modern” as it is the derech that Jews have followed for millenia.
The terribly inaccurate list does not include the most famous of all Orthodox Jews to have recently won a Nobel Prize: Dr. Robert Aumann, who shared the Economics prize in 2005. They actually delayed the start of the ceremony until the end of Shabat for him. Not only is he frum; he is a graduate of the Rabbi Jacob Joseph Yeshiva!
Rosalyn Sussman Yalow was a physicist who won the Nobel Prize in Medicine in 1977. (The inaccurate list misspelled her name.) She was a long time member of an Orthodox synagogue in the Bronx that I often attend. The social hall there is named for her. Her father in law was an Orthodox rabbi.
I don’t drink coffee, but a few years ago I was in a Starbuck’s and saw that their fruit salad was certified kosher for Pesach by Star-K. Could there be marit ayin for eating it?
“Charliehall,
Who is this rosh yeshiva? “
Rabbi Gershon Yankelewitz of RIETS.
“The 1998 Lancet study showing a connention between autism and vaccines has many problems with it including a small sample size and lack of experimental design.”
All true. Furthermore the principal investigator was funded by trial lawyers, was found guilty of scientific misconduct, and has lost his medical license as a result. I consider him to have feathers and webbed feet.
“Nor did I say anything about vaccines, except that they have not been proven to cause autism.”
Vaccines have been proven NOT to cause autism.
“Next think you’ll believe in global warming. “
The earth has gotten warmer over the past 130 years. It isn’t a matter of belief, it is a fact. There is still room for debate as to the causes, or what to do about it.
I can’t believe that people are justifying lies.
How about a list of observant orthodox Jewish Nobel Prize winners? There may be more religious Muslims to have won Nobel Prizes than religious Jews.
Here we go again. This list is missing a lot of Muslim Nobel Prize winners. Here are just a few:
Abdus Salam (Physics, 1979)
Shirin Ebadi (Peace, 2003) (She is an Iranian currently in exile for her opposition to the despotic regime there.)
Muhammad ElBaradei (Peace, 2005)
Muhammad Yunus (Peace, 2006) (He is actually an economist.)
Orhan Pamuk (Literature, 2006)
Also, Ahmed Zewail (not Zewai) won the prize for Chemistry, not Peace, in 1999.
—
This thread should be closed and lies like this should be banned from the site. It discredits us.
I flew earlier today. No problems.
“What about the so-called Rabbi who went into the chruch’s cathedral in Washington for Obama? “
He isn’t a “so-called” Rabbi, he is Rabbi Haskel Lookstein, the senior rabbi of one of the largest synagogues in New York and the principal of one of the largest day schools in New York. And he was backed up by Dayan Michael Broyde who cited the Tzitz Eliezer.
cantoresq got it right on the weddings.
“But it is a good example of how all these arguments started, we assume something is assur or muttar, but assumptions are dangerous.”
Correct. And in the case of entering churches or heterodox synagogues, there are indeed exceptions to the general prohibition. In my neighborhood the rabbis endorsed entering the Conservative synagogue for a blood drive where testing for bone marrow matches to save the life of a frum man was being done. It is a *mitzvah* for a recovering alcoholic to go to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting in a church basement. (Everyone I know who has asked a shilah on that has received the same answer: Attend any AA meeting held in a church UNLESS the AA meeting is being held in the main church sanctuary.) And four Orthodox rabbis attended the funeral mass of the Pope at the Vatican.
“Rav Elyashev too is not a Rov, yet is the Posek HaDor. “
Only for part of the non-Chasidic Ashkenazic Charedi community in Israel. Neither the Dati Leumi community nor the Sefardic community follow him even in Israel.
“It’s true it’s only on Orach Chaim”
That was what I meant when I said it was shorter.
Most of these are machlokets within our mesorah and any one could be a long thread. Nevertheless I don’t think we are encourage to speculate on end times; better just to try to do a better job keeping HaShem’s mitzvot.
I fail to see why it would be “disgusting” or any other type of problem to have non-Jews at a simchah. Non-Jews are welcome to come to synagogues and pray!
If we get asked to do something halachically impermissible, “I’m sorry, but I can’t.” is the beginning of a perfectly polite explanation of why not. (And BTW there is no prohibition of entering a mosque.)
” Salanter Academy Jewish Day School”
Wow! That was a traditional Eastern European yeshiva in the Bronx!!!
It later merged with two other orthodox day schools in the Bronx to form the Salanter Akiba Riverdale Academy, still an orthodox day school but a modern Zionist one.
“Dr. Hall: Are you claiming the Torah promotes state based liberalism? Please back that up with sources as well. I am aware that there is Ma’aser Ani, but that was to be given on an individual basis by individuals, not by the state. “
Yes. In tractate Shekalim, communal authorities are given the responsibility of levying taxes on the community for education, public works, and support of the poor. Rabbi Moshe Tendler has proven that that support includes universal health care.
And there are many other examples where the Torah provides for something other than a laissez-faire state. The King can take your property without your consent. (That is frowned upon, as the example of Naboth’s vinyard shows, but the halachah is that the King does have that power.) Beit din can declare your property ownerless and give it to someone else — without any compensation to you. If people are traversing your property to get from point A to point B, you can’t stop them. If you live in Jerusalem, and someone knocks on your door during one of the pilgrimage festivals, that person sleeps in your home whether you like it or not. There is no permanent sale of land in Eretz Yisrael outside of cities. During the shimittah year, if people want to pick fruit from your orchard, you can’t stop them. Ditto if they want to collect leket, peah, or shich’chah. Overcharging your customers is asur, as is undercharging. Trying to take away someone else’s business is also asur; the Torah values the protection of existing businesses over the supposed virtues of competition.
This is NOT socialism; there remains a limited right to private property. But that right is not a fundamental one; it is an indirect right that stems from the fact that the Torah forbids me from taking something that isn’t mine. But as I pointed out, the Torah does not forbid a King or a Beit Din from taking your property! The founding fathers of the United States would have been horrified. The ideal Torah state would be better described as a welfare wtate with an intrusive government. There is a reason why the gemara in Yevamot singles out leket, peah, shich’chah and maaser oni as the commandments that must be taught to prospective converts. (I would have thought it would be Shabat, kashrut, and taharat hamishpachah.) Non-Jews do understand the “right” to property. But we Jews understand that in truth everything belongs to our creator who has essentially lent it to us. Nothing is really ours. And if we are called to share it with others, well….
I’ve been appalled at the number of frum-looking Jews who have adopted an approach to public policy that is more Ayn Rand than Moshe Rabbeinu. As these examples show, the Torah doesn’t emulate Trotsky — but it certainly is far from Rand’s hedonistic self-centered ideal.
Are any fashion designers frum? Dati or Charedi? My wife and I would love to support a shomer Shabat designer who creates clothing that doesn’t promote licentiousness.
In Israel, the religious parties are the biggest supporters of that country’s generous welfare state. That should be no surprise because the ideal state described in the Torah is a generous welfare state.
myfriend,
Just because something may not be technically asur does not mean it should be done. Chas v’shalom Jews become known for spreading motzi shem ra on non-Jews! We are supposed to be a light to the nations, not a source of slanderous lies!!!