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Looking like you belong is one thing- add a couple of ounces of confidence and they start treating you like a king…
(don’t confuse confidence for arrogance tho)
This is the perfect reason for this thread: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/reason-for-saying-no
How do I cross-link them?
agree with the.nurse
The fact that you are not standard will make kids like that be more willing to talk to you and will make it easier for you to understand them.
You sound like you couldn’t imagine that you have anything to offer them (just by the tone of your post). Don’t underestimate yourself. You have a lot more to offer than you think. Just because you are not a full time learner…?
Most of the people who work in that field have been thru something of their own. It makes them more sensitive to others…
If other people are telling you to do it- you probably should!
Go for it!
G’luck!
LOL this is the most hysterical discussion ever!!!
Thanks for the laugh!
I agree with collegegrad. There is no need for a reason beyond NGBNFM (Nice Guy/Girl But Not For Me).
If, in a later discussion, a shadchan that I am comfortable with wants to know more details so that the next shot can be closer to bulls-eye, I might consider doing that.
But usually, going into details, ends up making you sound like you are badmouthing the person and there is very little that can be said that will not be taken offence with by the other side.
Another reason not to give a more specific reason is because as soon as you do, (whatever the reason is) the shadchan will try and persuade you that you are wrong and that you should go out again.
If a shadchan is pushy with demanding a reason- you need to just keep on repeating that you can’t put your finger on it, but you are 100% sure that he is not for you.
It’s a shame singles are not ever entitled or encouraged to go with their gut instincts… but that is another story….
It’s funny the things I think, and never dare say… guess the CR is a good place to say it!
Here it is: Of course they look totally ridiculous!!!
(that felt good ;0) )
Thanks for the laugh on a very stressful morning!
Adorable: That’s bc you started out as roommates and then became friends- it doesn’t always work the other way around…
I’m also going to Monsey for Shabbes- but plan on leaving right after.
What’s the problem? They said the hurricane will hit on sunday…
ronrsr: LOL thanks for that 😉
Collegegrad: No Prob-happy to help.
Piece of advice: (this may seem counter-intuitive) Don’t room with a friend. Rooming together if you have never done that with this friend, will put a strain on your friendship. I’ve seen many friendships fall apart after the two friends roomed together.
Better would be to find an apt close by this friends apt so that you can go over and visit often. That will also (possibly) broaden your circles a bit as you will have your own roommates that you may become friendly with.
Good luck with the move- you are welcome to contact me (not sure how that works with giving contact details on the CR) so I can try and help out with apt’s, and other contacts etc.
Hey go easy on him- it’s a bit insulting when someone shows up on a first date looking like the couldn’t be bothered to put themselves together. Unless that is her idea of being stylish, then it’s just plain rude.
(I’ve had guys show up on a first date unshaven- and after I spent 2 hours putting myself together- that is really insulting).
I agree with some of the posters above: I would talk to the shadchan – best way for the message to get across without you looking too bad and I would tell her where you are going next time…
ootinny- how do you know that? try it- you might be pleasantly surprised…
I’ve turned on Jewish music in a non-Jewish office a couple of times and they didn’t mind it (not for too long tho 😉 )
Hi,
I moved to NY (from further away than the mid-west, but that’s another story) and I would like to dispel some myths about moving to NY as a single:
1) It takes a VERY long time (think at least a couple of years) to get settled, get to know some families in the area and get to know enough shadchanim well enough that you have a network of people to suggest shidduchim/be references/check potential dates out for you on a regular basis.
2) Yes, you may have more dates if you live in NY, but while I’ve found that the quantity of my dates may have increased, the quality definitely has not. On the other hand, being here does make the actual dating much easier as you don’t have the pressure of whether or not to fly (or make the other person fly) each time you decide whether to go out again- it’s one factor (and stress) less that you have to deal with.
3) Living here as a single can be (esp in the beginning) horribly lonely- even if you come and live near a family that you know or relatives. If you decide to come, make sure you have some families that you are comfortable spending time with and some single friends who will introduce you to their friends/families etc. Times like Purim, Chanuka, Erev Y’K, Erev Tisha B’av can be especially bad as people don’t really think to invite singles and it’s when you miss being a part of a family most. Moving away from your family is a BIG adjustment- moving to a new city is also a BIG adjustment- doing those two at the same time is not easy…
There are many singles in the NY area, but most of them work or are in school and don’t really have that much time to hang out.
Don’t get me wrong, I see my friends and we get together for nights out, shiurim or just for a walk or a shmooze- but it’s not the same as living with your family.
On the flip-side, there are many many singles (unfortunately) living here and there is much more potential to meet new people and make new friends and network and yes, every so often- have a really good ole’ time with them!
BTW- just my thoughts on the posts about having Emunah and Bitachon- My move here had little to do with that, on the contrary, I decided to move here because I fully believe that HaShem is fully capable of sending me my spouse wherever I am in the world. So I decided that if He has decided that I’m gonna be single for a while, I might as well enjoy it- so I moved to NY as I figured that is the best place to be single!
Re: OOT vs in NY- I don’t think it makes a difference which community you live in as long as you are in the tri-state area- they all have their pro’s and con’s.
Just my two cents 😉
Good luck with the decision!
Hey
Love the poem 😉
I’m feeling the same way today- there isn’t much I can say, except commiserate and hope things pick up for you and all of us out there in the same boat.
Feel good!
I second the question- anyone know of a women’s gathering in BP (or close to BP) area with kinos (or something related) in English tonight?
Thanks
I hate to burst your bubbles up there, and I’m really happy for the posters above…
But I have completed many 40 day cycles of Sh’H’Sh for myself and others and I’m still looking. I should state that whenever I did it- something did move (I got a phone call, a date, whatever) but never a Yeshua.
I just don’t want people thinking this is a foolproof recipe- you need to daven and it has to be the right time…
Love the word knickerbokker
I could say it all day
Here are my 2 cents on this one:
1) It’s very easy to condemn him because he ‘didn’t listen to da’as torah’. Whatever he was told, might not be easy for him. He may not have the skills to get a job. He may not know how to or be able to get a job that he feels is mechubadik for him. Granted, he needs to swallow his pride and do what he needs to do to provide for his family, but that may be very very difficult for him to do.
2) Not having a job for a guy is like not being able to have children for a woman (give or take- this is not a scientific observation, just a sense that I have)- it does serious damage to their self-esteem, identity and sense of self. He is probably feeling really bad about himself and about the fact that he is basically living off his wife.
3) I would say he needs some help (therapy) possibly with his wife, but definitely also by himself. If he wont go, then I would suggest the wife go on her own to see what she can do to help him. He sounds depressed and suffering from low-self esteem- both can be (somewhat) helped in therapy.
4) For starters the wife can (I know this may sound counter-intuitive, but if she wants a positive outcome and not just start the slide down towards divorce) be positive and encouraging to him. Appreciate every tiny thing he does, help him feel good about himself. Ask him for advice on her business, the kids etc. Let him be the man whenever she can. I’m sure she has done/tried these things and it may be really difficult, especially when the tension (and resentment) has grown over the years.
I’d say, bottom line, if she were my friend, I would encourage her, remind her why she married him, and how much she loves him and try and encourage her to go to therapy so that they can salvage their relationship and do what she can to get him to go as well.
Good luck and on behalf of the Klal- thanks for trying to help your friend and possibly avoid the breakdown of another home in klal yisroel.
I missed it- but heard it was amazing. I could really use the chizuk- but I can’t find it anywhere anymore- can you post the link to the audio?
o, and I second the request for a translation if possible?
Thanks
honolulu: Where did you see that about his sister?
Now I’m really getting the creeps even more than before…
(I used to make jokes about guys who get suggested to me- asking how many people they’ve murdered and buried under the patio… that line of joke is getting less and less funny…)
Wow, quite a discussion.
Here are my two cents:
1) For those of you who aren’t sure of the ‘going rate’. Unless you are giving a gift, the ‘going rate’ is anywhere upwards of $1000 (from each side I think, but I could be wrong) as far as I know. This is if there was no specific amount stipulated beforehand. This is for most circles in NY/Europe/Israel as far as I know (feel free to post other amounts that are the ‘going rates in other places/circles).
2) I have(unfortunately) met many many shadchanim over the course of my dating career- it is very very rare for a shadchan to stipulate what his/her fees are the first time they meet you. It is general knowledge that a shadchan is recognized for their work thru a gift or payment and it is assumed that the shadchan will be paid if there is a successful shidduch.
3) As far as I know, there is no certificate, degree or license required in order to redd a shidduch. So (in my opinion) the discussion as to whether a shadchan only earns shadchanus if he/she is ‘professional’ is, to my mind, mute. Anyone can suggest a shidduch and anyone who does see a shidduch through to it’s successfull conclusion, therefore deserves shadchanus (assuming that he/she is the only shadchan that was involved and both sides recognize that).
4)The discussion about a shadchan ‘doing it for the money’ versus ‘doing it for the mitsva’ frankly, turned my stomach. Just because a shadchan wants to be recognized for his/her efforts does not mean that the effort expended was not L’shem Shomayim. Shadchanim (the ones that do get paid) ‘earn’ way way less than they should, judging by the amount of time and effort that they invest in each and every shidduch that they redd. Every bit of effort that a shadchan does is out of the goodness of their hearts, if they are lucky and HaShem wills, they may become a Shaliach and hopefully earn something material from it ($$). Every shadchan is happy for the people that he/she matched- just because they expect payment, doesn’t mean that they are in any way not happy for the people that they matched. Again, they just deserve to be recognized and paid and not treated like shnorrers.
Apologies for that long ramble 😉
As far as practical advice- why doesn’t OfCourse turn to the Mechutanim (Chosson’s side)? they might be a bit more menshlich then the Kalla’s mother.
Failing that, I would find a mutual friend/ relative ( I think this idea was mentioned above) who can mention to either the Chassan/Kalla or to one or both sets of parents something along the lines of ‘BTW, I met so-n-so (the shadchan) the other day, and I’ve a feeling that he hasn’t been paid… I just thought you would want to know, bc I know this can bring really bad mazal etc, you should really check if he was paid…’
O and I’ll second that great line posted by adorable: ‘Make my shidduch and I promise to pay you!’ 🙂
If you call the Agudah at 212 797 9000 they have great contacts with all types of (frum) lawyers. They were a great help to me B’H.
BTW- are you filing an I-485? I did it mainly on my own and would be happy to walk you through it.
Also there is a non-profit organisation called NYLAG that provides legal help free of charge to low income people. I did the I-485 myself and then had a NYLAG lawyer look it over for free- she was really nice and very good at it (proof: I got my GC 4 months later).
In gratitude to HaShem for getting my GC I try to help ppl get theirs in whatever way I can as a chessed (ie help writing the petition letters, looking over forms, paperwork etc).
Mods: Am I allowed to post my email address so I can be contacted with questions?
I have a couple of pretty bad ones…
How about the guy who walked so fast and was so far ahead of me that the door of the hotel swung shut on my nose (I kid you not) as I tried to hurry in after him (of course, it hadn’t occurred to him to wait for me, let alone hold the door open).
Or how about the guy who told me ‘I’m not paying for your dinner’ in the tone of voice that would imply that I’m somehow being greedy or presumptuous to have assumed that. This after taking me out of the city for a long afternoon date and having my stomach grumble while he talked about himself for the whole two hour ride home…
O, and I almost forgot about the charming gentleman who had a business meeting with the owner of the restaurant for most of (our second) date. She (yes, he sat there talking to another woman in front of me) sat at our table for a good 20 mins after we ordered and for another hour after we finished (I’m not exaggerating- I was watching the hands on her watch while they were shmoozing- they made it clear that I wasn’t invited to be part of the conversation). After I had watched 40 minutes crawl past on her watch, I excused myself and went to the bathroom. I called and texted some friends all the while wondering what would happen if I just called myself a cab from the bathroom, waited there for a bit and just walked right out of the restaurant, into the cab and went home.
Of course, my better (???) judgement prevailed and I decided to be nice whatever the guy does so that nobody can fault my behavior (I didn’t want to risk the wrath of the shadchan as I’m sure she would’ve found fault with me somehow), and went back to the table. They looked up surprised, as if they had forgotten all about me.
The crazy part of all these stories is that all of these guys were surprised that I didn’t want to go out again and were completely non-plussed that I was somehow less than flattered by their behavior.
Was it Oomis up there who commented that Yeshivos should be teaching their bochurim some basic mentchlichkeit? no kidding.
If you’re thinking about going then at least look into all your options- I think it’s a great idea. You will grow from it, and the sense of accomplishment when you are finished is amazing.
There are MSW programs that have schedules that could work for you- LIU has a frum women’s program and Touro has an all women’s program in their Brooklyn campus with Sunday and evening classes.
If money and schedule aren’t a problem NYU has a very good program.
Let me know if you want more info on the different programs etc out there.
Hatslacha!
I’m assuming you are single- and I would go with apushatayid’s suggestion of wearing a ring. Except that you don’t have to actually wear a ring (although it does help).
But you could just send out the vibe/message that you are married/ taken. (I try to think about how I feel when I’m dating someone seriously and a different guy gets suggested/ tries to talk to me) It makes a person want take a certain step back on an emotional level while still being open and nice.
You need to imagine and act as if you are married- so they get the message that you are ‘taken/not available’ but are just being friendly.
I used to make references to the guy I was dating (pretending that it was a long term thing so that they would see it as serious and leave me alone). But if you’re just starting out and they don’t know you yet… pretend you are married- it really makes things easier.
Do not feel that you have to go for lunch or whatever with the group if you are not comfortable with that (go with the women if you are comfortable with that- you don’t want to come across as a total loner)
It’s hard to learn how to balance this- but it’s a very valuable lesson to learn, and well worth the slight discomfort in the beginning.
Good luck!
Apparently ‘Know.it.all’ doesn’t.
(sorry, couldn’t resist that ;-)) .
You might want to clarify your point a little better so that folks have an idea what you are talking about and what your question or topic of discussion is.
I’ve been on a date to Sprinkles (love the place). I frankly couldn’t care less what people think (neither did my date).
But I have also gone there, picked up ice cream and then gone across the street to the park (if it wasn’t too dark and deserted) to sit on the benches there near the street (so it wasn’t Yichud).
Picking up ice cream at sprinkles and then going to the park is one of my favorite dates. (It’s really simple, I don’t have to feel bad that my guy is shelling out tons of $$, and it’s quiet and comfortable- weather pending. No awkward lounge situations etc).
Good luck!
Here are my 2 cents worth:
1) I think halachically and just basic menshlichkeit-wise to just get out of the car and walk her. There is nothing halachically different walking her to the door as there would be walking around with her on a date and it irks me to no end that there are guys out there that would use halacha as an excuse for laziness and rudeness.
2) It makes me feel respected and valued when the guy walks me to the door. Irrespective of whether he/I want to go out again.
3) The feeling when the guy doesn’t walk me to the door is really awful. They range anywhere from, ‘I can’t believe nobody ever told him to walk a girl to the door’ to ‘wow, I guess he’s really lazy/ can’t wait to get out of here/ I’m obviously not worth his time’, O and the really awkward feeling you get when they sit in the car watching you walk in…
5) If a guy isn’t sure whether a girl feels comfortable being walked to the door, JUST ASK!!! Guys have said to me: ‘Can I walk you to the door?’ and I say ‘sure- thanks for asking!’ If a girl isn’t comfortable with it, she can say so, and the guy still gets points A) for offering and B) for showing sensitivity and asking whether she is comfortable with it.
6) I also think it allows for a certain role- appropriate behaviour which is good for fledgling relationships in dating. The guy likes to feel like the man in the relationship, and letting him walk you to the door will let him feel like your ‘protector’.
When you let a guy feel like a man, and you make a point of appreciating whatever it is he does for you on the date (holding the door/ paying for your drink/ walking you to the door) he A) feels good about himself, B) feels like a man which helps him see you in a feminine light as you are accepting whatever he is giving you. This enforces the different roles men and women play in relationships and this is one reason these type of gestures are important parts of courting.
For the guys out there that do/did walk their dates to the door- how did that make you feel? how did you perceive your date afterwards?
edited
Looking back, I would’ve classified people based on their middos, and other personal qualities and not on whether they are learning or working. I / my parents nixed so many guys based on the learning/working thing and I see now that in the long term it doesn’t make a difference in what type of husband a guy will be.
I look back I wish I could date half of those ‘working-guys’ who were suggested to me back then…
Mazel Tov! I missed it- can someone post a link so we can watch it?
Tks!
Thanks ‘aries2756’ – I liked what you wrote about people not wanting their private business on display.
Has it occured to anyone that maybe all singles (divorced, widowed or regular) don’t like having their marital status stamped on their forhead?
Someone I once worked with told me his answer to the standard ‘what are you looking for?’ question when it comes from total (or even less total) strangers. He used to tell them ‘If you know me well enough to redd me a shidduch then you shouldn’t need to ask’.
Or in other words the people suggesting people for these divorced men and women (and for everyone else as well) should be people who know them and their situation.
It does sometimes make it easier if you can just look at them and tell but it’s not the most sensitive of ways to go about it.
Hi,
I’ve been a lurker for a while but decided to post- so hi to all first off before I offer my two cents!
Here are my thoughts on this topic:
1) I think that before a shadchan makes you come and meet them, they should talk to you on the phone to see if they deal with people that are in your ballpark so you know that this could be worthwhile for you, then…
2) They should charge a fee only after they have managed to set you up on a first date or (going by the date#2/date#4 concept) after a second date.
Of course, any honest person tells someone this when making the appointment in addition to telling them how much they charge when/if they make a shidduch (just like a doctor, lawyer or any other professional would). This way if the single doesn’t feel comfortable with the arrangement they can say so and back out.
Another thought:
Generally, it’s hard to differentiate in real life between ‘professional shadchanim’ and ‘others’. Both try really hard. Both go beyond their ‘call of duty’ (if they have one). Both use the same coercive methods… and both would really like to see you happy.
Although I agree that the ‘low profile’ shadchanim (ie people who are friends and acquaintances) generally are more on the mark and are usually less hurtful and more respectful and sensitive to singles.
Ah, I have many a story to tell about shadchanim who took advantage of a single girls desperation and charged her for their time… only never to be heard of again.
Let’s see, there’s the one who had me come over on an erev y’t… and had all (9 or was it 10, dunno, it felt like 15) of her kids jumping up and down around us on the couch… in between her taking the phone every time it rang… so that we never actually had a conversation…
Then there’s the one who was more of a family acquaintance (or so I thought) and I happened to be visiting in the area and (although she had never done much for me in the past) I thought I’d go in and say hi… she then charged me as well, saying that it’s good to give someone an incentive to work for you… I was so shocked and uncomfortable that I shelled out the cash… mind you, I never heard from her again…
One more thing- I noticed one of the posters saying that “Singles should get together and network themselves instead of having to go through complete strangers who don’t have any stake in the process, only good intentions. “
This is really not so easy to do. With our society and communities built the way they are, there aren’t many opportunities for singles to network in a way that is comfortable for them (weddings and other social events can be really uncomfortable).
The only way I can think of to do this is for singles to arrange separate evenings for girls to come together and suggest ideas for each other from the pool of guys that they have dated or have researched with a married person who would be able to follow up on the suggestions and vice versa for a guys evening.
That’s it for now.