Treat the problem, not the symptom. The talking is just an outside symptom, that we are truly not inspired in Shul.
The Mi-Shebeirachs, which are full of social politics, (for him yes, and for him Not), done in the center of Shul, while the Sefer Torah is laying there, takes away all of our spiritual inspiration.
When we feel no inspiration, we will talk. When we do feel inspiration, we don’t have to be told not to talk.
All the evil that has befallen klal yisroel is because we dont have the bais hamikdash. When moshiach comes we wont have all the tzaros we have now. Chazal clearly say that the second bais hamikdash was destroyed because of sinas chinam and wont be rebuilt till we as a nation correct this problem. All the tefilos in the wolrd will not work till we can learn to respect every jew and treat them like our own brothers and sisters. I am not saying taking in shul is not a problem. It is a huge problem and a terrible chilul Hashem. However correcting this problem will not bring our redemption. That can only be brought about by ending sinas chinam.
I don’t think that “yireh lehochicho” means to scream at anybody. The Torah states hocheach tochiach, vlo sisah alav chet. Don’t embarrass him. And see mesilas Yisharim 19th perek on the topic. Perhaps he is mixing from a different mamar Chazal.
Also the nekudah mentioned about speaking in shul ain lo chelek belokim doesn’t sound specific to during davening as indicated but merely not respecting the sanctity of shul.
Are we really supposed to “shoosh” them down? Whether or not, it may cause more harm than good??
That doesn’t motivate people to stop talking. It makes them feel as if they should stop learning and doing mitzvos, because it’s all for nothing anyway. The talking is a real challenge and sometimes people slip up. There is no point in making people feel depressed over their past actions.
At the end of the day, he’s got a point. It’s something many of us need to work on individually. Ok, maybe “shushing” people won’t work. But maybe asking them respectfully to be quiet will.
Nobody is forcing anyone to go to shul. But if you do you go, please be at least as respectful as you would be lehavdil in a church. In a church they wouldn’t just shush you, they would throw you out.
@Yira – Mi Shebeirachs? I didn’t get one in years and I’m happy about it – a little less time to shmooze. If you feel offended you might want to work on yourself. Yes, there are some people that are more social than others (I’m not one of them) and may get more Mi Shebeirachs. At least I don’t get a Mi Shepara!
@phatogre77 I don’t exactly chap your point. In other words why do we need a Chovas Halvovos, Mesilas Yeshorim, Orchos Tzadikim etc… or maybe those were written before the Churban?
@YJF @NoWayJose @GG boy רמב”ם פ”ז ה”ח
המוכיח את חבירו תחלה לא ידבר לו קשות עד שיכלימנו שנאמר ולא תשא עליו חטא. כך אמרו חכמים יכול אתה מוכיחו ופניו משתנות ת”ל ולא תשא עליו חטא. מכאן שאסור לאדם להכלים את ישראל וכל שכן ברבים. אע”פ שהמכלים את חבירו אינו לוקה עליו עון גדול הוא. כך אמרו חכמים המלבין פני חבירו ברבים אין לו חלק לעולם הבא. לפיכך צריך אדם להזהר שלא לבייש חבירו ברבים בין קטן בין גדול. ולא יקרא לו בשם שהוא בוש ממנו. ולא יספר לפניו דבר שהוא בוש ממנו. במה דברים אמורים בדברים שבין אדם לחבירו. אבל בדברי שמים אם לא חזר בו בסתר מכלימין אותו ברבים ומפרסמים חטאו ומחרפים אותו בפניו ומבזין ומקללין אותו עד שיחזור למוטב כמו שעשו כל הנביאים בישראל:
1) When one is talking in shul the halacha is you are goarin boy even if it’s mevayesh him as agreed by all poskim.
2) Even without this halacha, its pashut one has a full right to shush someone disturbing his davening (goarin, is even if he’s not disturbing, or not disturbing your davening). The difference is that 1) is not exclusivley meant to keep achieve quiet now, 2) is for now.
3) Mind boggling how people can’t just accept proper divrei tochacha hayoztzim mehaleiv!
9- We can accept Tochacha — from someone like Reb Gamliel Rabinowitz. NOT from someone who drives a fat luxury car, eats in fancy restaurants… I’ll stop there.
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10 Responses
Treat the problem, not the symptom. The talking is just an outside symptom, that we are truly not inspired in Shul.
The Mi-Shebeirachs, which are full of social politics, (for him yes, and for him Not), done in the center of Shul, while the Sefer Torah is laying there, takes away all of our spiritual inspiration.
When we feel no inspiration, we will talk. When we do feel inspiration, we don’t have to be told not to talk.
All the evil that has befallen klal yisroel is because we dont have the bais hamikdash. When moshiach comes we wont have all the tzaros we have now. Chazal clearly say that the second bais hamikdash was destroyed because of sinas chinam and wont be rebuilt till we as a nation correct this problem. All the tefilos in the wolrd will not work till we can learn to respect every jew and treat them like our own brothers and sisters. I am not saying taking in shul is not a problem. It is a huge problem and a terrible chilul Hashem. However correcting this problem will not bring our redemption. That can only be brought about by ending sinas chinam.
I don’t think that “yireh lehochicho” means to scream at anybody. The Torah states hocheach tochiach, vlo sisah alav chet. Don’t embarrass him. And see mesilas Yisharim 19th perek on the topic. Perhaps he is mixing from a different mamar Chazal.
Also the nekudah mentioned about speaking in shul ain lo chelek belokim doesn’t sound specific to during davening as indicated but merely not respecting the sanctity of shul.
Are we really supposed to “shoosh” them down? Whether or not, it may cause more harm than good??
That doesn’t motivate people to stop talking. It makes them feel as if they should stop learning and doing mitzvos, because it’s all for nothing anyway. The talking is a real challenge and sometimes people slip up. There is no point in making people feel depressed over their past actions.
At the end of the day, he’s got a point. It’s something many of us need to work on individually. Ok, maybe “shushing” people won’t work. But maybe asking them respectfully to be quiet will.
Nobody is forcing anyone to go to shul. But if you do you go, please be at least as respectful as you would be lehavdil in a church. In a church they wouldn’t just shush you, they would throw you out.
@Yira – Mi Shebeirachs? I didn’t get one in years and I’m happy about it – a little less time to shmooze. If you feel offended you might want to work on yourself. Yes, there are some people that are more social than others (I’m not one of them) and may get more Mi Shebeirachs. At least I don’t get a Mi Shepara!
@phatogre77 I don’t exactly chap your point. In other words why do we need a Chovas Halvovos, Mesilas Yeshorim, Orchos Tzadikim etc… or maybe those were written before the Churban?
@YJF @NoWayJose @GG boy רמב”ם פ”ז ה”ח
המוכיח את חבירו תחלה לא ידבר לו קשות עד שיכלימנו שנאמר ולא תשא עליו חטא. כך אמרו חכמים יכול אתה מוכיחו ופניו משתנות ת”ל ולא תשא עליו חטא. מכאן שאסור לאדם להכלים את ישראל וכל שכן ברבים. אע”פ שהמכלים את חבירו אינו לוקה עליו עון גדול הוא. כך אמרו חכמים המלבין פני חבירו ברבים אין לו חלק לעולם הבא. לפיכך צריך אדם להזהר שלא לבייש חבירו ברבים בין קטן בין גדול. ולא יקרא לו בשם שהוא בוש ממנו. ולא יספר לפניו דבר שהוא בוש ממנו. במה דברים אמורים בדברים שבין אדם לחבירו. אבל בדברי שמים אם לא חזר בו בסתר מכלימין אותו ברבים ומפרסמים חטאו ומחרפים אותו בפניו ומבזין ומקללין אותו עד שיחזור למוטב כמו שעשו כל הנביאים בישראל:
1) When one is talking in shul the halacha is you are goarin boy even if it’s mevayesh him as agreed by all poskim.
2) Even without this halacha, its pashut one has a full right to shush someone disturbing his davening (goarin, is even if he’s not disturbing, or not disturbing your davening). The difference is that 1) is not exclusivley meant to keep achieve quiet now, 2) is for now.
3) Mind boggling how people can’t just accept proper divrei tochacha hayoztzim mehaleiv!
9- We can accept Tochacha — from someone like Reb Gamliel Rabinowitz. NOT from someone who drives a fat luxury car, eats in fancy restaurants… I’ll stop there.
WAKE UP KLAL YISROEL.