The Washington Post’s Marc Fisher reported today on the travails of Jim Willard, who owns a couple of Dunkin’ Donuts franchise locations in Maryland. Willard has operated his Potomac and Rockville locations kosher, to the pleasure of the local Jewish population. However, in a move of astounding shortsightedness, the corporation has informed Willard that he must offer the entire standard Dunkin’ Donuts line, which includes non-kosher dishes such as a Sausage Egg Cheese Croissant and a Bacon Egg Cheese Croissant.
Willard’s are not the only DD locations that are kosher, according to the Dunkin’ Donuts spokespeople. They estimate about 40 locations across the country abide by the dietary laws. Dunkin’ Donuts defends its dictate by pointing to market research suggesting a full menu would increase unit sales. Headquarters is not without compassion, though; they are permitting Willard to keep kosher his DD outlet inside the Rockville Jewish Community Center.
The local Jewish community is protesting this move, circulating petitions in hopes of keeping DD in the fold.
Fisher also noted that over 20% of the nation’s Krispy Kreme (NYSE:KKD) locations are kosher.
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This story was reported in the Washington Jewish Week a few weeks ago.
It seems that this franchisee doesn’t want to keep this store kosher, as he can’t seem to show DD corporate that his sales will decrease if he goes treif.
DD corp. has replied to various consumers in a an email that their policy of Kosher has not changed and is not changing, with almost 40 stores certified Kosher and remaining so.
Moral of the story, stick to cholov yisroel .
Good, this way yiden will be forced to support jewish bakeries and not DUNKIN DOUGHNUTS
he mike, weren’t we all implored in te coke story not to impose our kashrus on others?
TO (RABBI)MIKEDREZZ
STICK TO CHOLOV YISRAEL, AND ONLY COMMENT ON CHOLOV YISRAEL,
Who is imposing kashrus on anyone? Cholov stam is metamtem the lev whether you like it or not.
Really?
So Limoshul…the Yidden which eat it (including VERY VERY Choshuver Yidden) all have Timtum Halev?
Your nuts.
Kindly take out an Igros Koshe and let us know WHERE Rav Moshe ZT”L says that!!
Let keep Ahavas Yisrael on top of our lists as we pray for and observe our redemption with the coming of Pesach.
While I keep Cholov Yisreal there is definitly a clear pesach by Rav Feinstein OBM to each regular milk products in the US (only)
We should not look to belittle others, Our TOTTY (H”B) only wants his children to get along,, just as we would want our own children to “play nice with each other” LET US MAKE OUR TOTTY PROUD OF US AND KEEP AHAVAS YISRAEL FIRST AND FOR MOST and let us not sin due to our worshipping of the COW (AGAIN).
I agre torahtotty,
mikedrezz, where do u get the right to come out and make such a comment. There are plenty of people, especially outside of “the yeshiva world” and more imp. even in it that eat chalav stam. Its like coming out and saying “well thats why we should only talk to black hatters. My second seder chavrusah is a talmud of R’ Reuven shlita and told me that R’ reuven said “If my father was alive today, he would be matir chalav stam L’chatchilah” Whatever the case R’ Moshe def. matired it b’dieved. So dont go around being a tzaadik on yenems cheshbon.
Hey fact finder. I find it ironic that your screen name certainly does not match your statements. I am sure in the igros koshe ( the one that you read) it does not mention anything about that. But many poskim have come out with that pesak that it truly is metamtem the lev.further more , Reb moshe himself did not eat cholov stam.Why not? You obviously are taking it very personally and especially with the name calling , clearly demonstates that. I am sure you also take on Reb moshes many chumros as well since you rely on his koulos without a problem.
mikedrezz Says:
March 19th, 2007 at 4:39 pm
Who is imposing kashrus on anyone? Cholov stam is metamtem the lev whether you like it or not.
Mike –
Even with ur logic, Cholov S’tam wouldn’t be metamtem ha’lev, as it is not treif, just simply not supervised.
Spew what yuo’d like, but please get it straight.
I tend to believe (though my Das Torah is quite immature)
that:
one who holds that Reb Moshe’s psak was only meant to apply to a certain situation in america at that time, and no longer applies. if such a person eats cholv stam it will indeed be mtamtum his lev.
one who holds that a psak is a psak, and we are not able to say it was ONLY for a certain limited situation. such a person who eats cholv stam will NOT be mtamtum his lev.
or perhaps not.
perhaps the m’tzeus is the m’tzeus and that’s that, and the only difference in the above two cases would only be how one is judged in Sh’mayim.
any lumbdish thoughts?
chaim yankel, its not me spewing. If you want to put it that way then I guess the previous satmar rav Rav Yoel zatzal was spewing when he made that statement. Next time you get it staraight.
Hey mikedrezz:
Can you please find out from the Poskim that you quote (those that say that Cholov Stam is metamtem the lev) if using the internet and posting on blogs is metamtem the lev. Or do you follow some of that Posik’s decisions but not others (seemingly you have a problem with “fact finder” possibly not following all of Rav Moshes ZTL’s chumros – although I do not know why you assume that he doesn’t).
Sorry Mike but I’m
Grumpier and Older than ever….
i agre that nobody shold say such comments [”metamtem” etc.]chas vshalom,anyone that go’s acording to his rebbi is doing the right thing, but ill’ be happy if someone can explain to me how chalav stam is muter today since its’ known thet he [r’ moshe] only gave a heter becuse in thet time it was very diffcult to get chalav yisrael, so he gave a ”horas sha’a” that you can eat chalav akum, but whats the heter today?
KINDERLACH, STOP THE FIGHTING
To Grumpier. I would assume that blogging on non kosher sites is metamtem and a posek would rule that way. I think YW.com is a kosher site and by leaving messages here is no worse then having a live discussion with regards to issues of the day. Secondly all you guys take it so to heart when challenged by an opposing view. Obviously there is some truth to what i am saying and you guys know that deep down it is not neccessary to eat cholov stam today with all the available cholov yisroel products available.
The reason why I “assume” that fact finder does not follow reb moshes chumros is because I know fact finder personally and I know that he is full of it.
sdb what you claim everyone knows is unknown to his children or talmidim. It is also not hinted to at all in his teshuvos. Maybe you consider yourself everyone. He did not write that he was being matir a gezera dirabanan but that the gezera is fulfilled by government regulation. It is also possible that timtum halev is only by a diorayso similar to what R’ Moshe writes regarding pgam mishpacha. R’ Yoel may have only said it to make a point. There are many who understand the Chazon Ish to be agreeing with R’ Moshe.
I eat only cholov yisroel (and until Ahava came along with its own plant and a few others followed suit I was very careful which CY I ate).
However, to understand the present situation we have to go back to the beginning of kashrus in America, where few Jews kept any sort of kashrus and when there was far more anti-Semitism than there is now. The first kashrus agencies were in no position to insist on cholov yisroel, and they wanted to make as wide a selection of products available under proper supervision. Therefore, cholov stam was the standard in the US until probably some time after the war. (Even some Chassidishe friends of mine remember eating cholov stam during their early childhoods).
The fact is that Rav Moshe’s heter was probably meant for certain situations only. However, chances are 99% that FDA supervised milk is really cow’s milk, and the “metamtem es halev” factor, which I certainly hold by, is based on kabbalah and chassidus which of course not everyone follows.
The only way we will ever see cholov yisroel become the standard is if someone comes up with a top, top quality line of cheeses, frozen desserts or chocolate that they can manufacture profitably and sell at a price similar to that of better cholov stam products. I’m not afraid to say that just about all the products I use are inferior to cholov stam products that I remember from 20 years or so ago when I switched to CY. The milk goes off so quickly that the part of the video clip and accompanying lyrics from Abi Melebt showing Lipa throwing away sour milk really hits home for most CY consumers.
Since Mikdrezz knows who I am, I publicly challange him to tell everyone who I am.
MikeD:
You wrote:
“I know fact finder personally and I know that he is full of it.”
I assume you mean he is full of Cholov Stam, right? Heh heh 😉
(Even older than before, but a little less grumpy…),
GOM
Don’t forget that most of these doughnuts are made with powdered milk, and that has plenty more heteirim. I wouldn’t worry about timtum, I worry more about amaratzus
based on today’s comments threads, i’m glad to see there is something more exciting to yw readers than neturei karta——food!!!!!!
If he were to be full of cholov stam that would be a compliment.
Once again: you’re all arguing about a d’Rabbonon, by violating a d’Oraisa.
Stick to discussing the issue, not slamming the individuals.
I would prefer to always use Cholov Yisroel but I have found that the milk spoils days before its maturation date as printed on the mik carton.
This has happened to me innumerable times and I have therefore decided to rely on Rav Moshe’s psak.
Are these Choluv Yisroel merchants honest?
And don’t reply that I’m here to bash, because I’m not.
I believe dishonesty in the Cholov Yisroel market is an impediment to more Jews keeping Choluv Yisroel.
You are funny, grumpy.
Mikedrezz, since you did not take the chalange, and did not expose the identity of fact finder, I can only conclude that it is YOU who is full of it!
I GO TO DUNKIN DONUTS EVERY SINGLE DAY.AND NOW THEY SAY ITS NOT KOSHER.ALL OF A SUDDEN NOW.THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF YIDEN GOING THERE EVERY DAY!
i think that the”common expressions” being bandied about here is not kosher! this comments is pulling the whole thread down and taking YW with it.
Friends – Let’s have an active, thinking discussion – let’s spar and debate ideas – let’s not use expressions that are course and vulgar (and with the courseness and vulgarity only hinted at or alluded to).
with all the tzoras we read and hear about is dunkin donuts that imortant my gut feeling this nisoiyan we can handle
Chaim Yankel:
you wrote “Even with ur logic, Cholov S’tam wouldn’t be metamtem ha’lev, as it is not treif, just simply not supervised”
This is not true. The timtum halev, which happens to be an inyun brought L’halacha in Shulchan Aruch, comes from eating prohibited foods. Cholov Akum is 100% ASSUR to eat. It is an Issur Drabanan. Just like eating chicken and milk. It is not just “simply unsepervised.”
Powdred milk does have at least one Matir, not the “many heterim” mentioned by JH. Reb Moshe does Matir whey but does not mention powdered milk as a Heter.
SHAZAM: Your words are close to apikursos. D’Rabonons are at least as chamur as D’oraises. We find many times in Halacha where we are even more strict on D’rabonon’s.
Reb moshe does seem to hold our milk is not really Cholov Akum, rather Cholov Stam. But if you look at his Teshuvos, the later the Teshuva and the more available Cholov Yisroel became, he seems to have become more stringent. He himself implies that his heter is a kula.
He even paskened that schools must spend the extra money and serve only Cholov Yisroel. This is a great expense for a school, especialy when they are funded primarily by Tzedoko money. Nevertheless, Reb Moshe ZT”L held that this expense is part of Chinuch Habonom. If Reb Moshe held his Heter was L’Chatchila, how would he permit using tzedokoh money on a Chumra?
Besides, there were many poskim who did not accept Reb Moshe’s heter in the first place.
And by the way “MODERN ORTHODOX”, there is a CY company out there whos milk is very short lifed. It doesn’y make it close to the date. But there are other companies out there whos milk actualy makes it past the date. Before going to choloc stam, maybe experiment with different Cholov Yisroels!!
yitzyr- as they say ”just becuse avryone dos it, it dosn’t meen it’s right”….to baki thanks for the anser but i still think that even if r’ moshe never said it, mtz’ad the svara it right since l’mase till r’ moshes times no one was matir it.
For all of those that think cholv stam is mtamtem halev and R’ moshe decided to be matir anyway, you are crazy.
Additionally I have spoken to several people who have seen R’ Dovid Feinstein eating cholov stam.
Moreover, I have discussed the entire issue with a posek (in E.Y) at length and he was of the opinion that since R’ Moshe’s psak was mkubel by the velt as a valid mehalich the psak has the din of a heter and not a kulah b’dieved. Therefore he said that anyone who is makpid (a yarei shamayim, or whatever R’ Moshe’s lashon is) can eat cholov stam whenever faced with somewhat difficult situations (traveling and gas station only has cholov stam etc.) and that there is no need for hataras nedarim since the psak has the rank of ikkur hadin.
I believed as was mentioned above that the heter only applies in the U.S. but was told that the heter will apply in any country where the govermental regulations are strong enough to prevent non cows milk from being added to the milk. He said that the regulations in Israel are to lax to rely on the regulations for any product that it might be nogeyah. However there would be no problem for a chalav stam eater to bring chalv stam to Israel and eat it there.
The heter for cholov stam was not meant for all kinds of products with chlov stam in them. It was meant for those who could not get milk where they lived and since one needs milk for health it was allowed. But to put a blanket heter over all cholov stam even where cholov Yisroel is readily available it was not. So people shouldn’t be indulging themselves in all kinds of chalav stam just to satisfy their cravings. I say it’s just as well that this Dunkin Donuts loses their hechsher. Rav Moshe’ ZT”L’s heter wasn’t for indulgence it was for nessecity.
anonymouschochom:
You said “Cholov Akum is 100% ASSUR to eat. It is an Issur Drabanan. Just like eating chicken and milk. It is not just “simply unsepervised.”
FYI: We are talking about Cholov STAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NOT CHALAV AKUM!!!!!
PLEASE!! ENOUGH WITH THE AM HAARATZOIS!!!
Bas Melech, I would love to know where you’re getting this information from. According to both his sons who I have asked personally, Chalav Stam is muter lchatchilah. Second of all, I went to MTJ, and there was Hersheys chocalate bar in the candy machine right where R’Moshe used to walk by everyday, so I doubt he didn’t know about it.
All female rabbis please tell up where you see this in his writings. Did any of you learn the sugya? I did. The comments here and regarding Coke show the apathy that people have to the halacha regarding what they eat. It is fairly safe to say that, for better or worse, most readers of this site would not rely on some of the poskim of the ou he there was a question about a pot in their kitchen. Yet that is what they do every time they use their products. There are many items which they feel are kosher and the star-k disagrees and vis-versa. When you put both of these in a pot you end up with something that is not kosher according to both. The same holds true for heimishe hechsherim. I have personally reviewed hundreds of psakim and have had correspondence with them about what was written. Which products I buy is based on this and practical research. Of course there are those whom I would not rely upon at all. Some of those are heimishe hechsherim. Even so, to suggest that that all of them just rely on national supervisions is just false. It is not hard for someone who knows what to ask to find out what an ingredient relies on. Once that is done even someone who is not makpid about it can be believed about the facts. This is the extent to which reliable heimishe hechsherim will rely on others.
A similar issue came up 2 years ago on another blog and at the time I asked a friend of mine who was learning in MTJ to please ask Reb Dovid on my behalf if Reb Moshe ZTL would have “renounced” the psak or if it would have been different. The answer was emphatically NO. It would not have changed or been different in any way nor would it have been taken back. All you people dont have the ‘pleytzers’ to be m’chalayk with Reb Moshe ZTL so why bother?!
chaim yankel, its not me spewing. If you want to put it that way then I guess the previous satmar rav Rav Yoel zatzal was spewing when he made that statement. Next time you get it staraight.
So lisheetascha,
You go by everything the Satmar REBBA (only munkacz is a RAV) says. And to answer your question I do go by R’ Moshe. It obviously is not mitamtem es halev b/c if it was the gedolei yisroel would have come out and said that R’ Moshes psak is no longer valid today. Secondly, there is only kosher andd treif. If you say that chalev stam is assurr, then it is treif according to you. Cholov yisroel is def.. better i am not arguing that point. It IS more l’chatchilah, however cholov stam is kosher,period. SO THANK YOU.
I would just like to inform everyone that the majority of Jews in Potomac and Rockville and surrounding areas are not Orthodox. Never-the-Less, there are over 10 Kosher restaurants there. The reason for the large amount of establishments there as opposed to larger Orthodox communities is because there are a lot of Non-Orthodox people who are willing to keep Kosher if it is convenient for them but if it is not available they will not eat Kosher. For the clientele in this area, it is better they should eat Cholov Stam then eat Treif. This is the same reason that the Vaad of Greater Washington will allow the restaurants to serve meat during the nine days if asked or will be open on a fast day. This whole issue of closing Dunkin Doughnuts because it is Cholov Stam would be applicable in more Orthodox cities.
P.S. I have heard that Rabbi Ruderman Tzal, one of the former Gedolei Hador, gave a Heter for powdered milk in America to be Cholov Stam.
Rabbi Ruderman z’l, as well as Har Tzvi
‘P.S. I have heard that Rabbi Ruderman Tzal, one of the former Gedolei Hador, gave a Heter for powdered milk in America to be Cholov Stam. ‘
I can’t wait for people to start in with, with no proof, ‘yeah, but it was only bshaas hadchak, only in those times, only if you have no choice, only if you’re starving, blah, blah…’
The fact is that the milk in question that goes off is actually a very healthy product as the owner of the firm which makes it has committed to avoiding any and all milk which comes from cows that are injected with growth hormone. I also suspect that he uses the bare minimum when it comes to other chemicals that could have negative effects, but which could also extend the life of the milk. Not a matter of dishonesty, but a matter perhaps of different priorities.
If you don’t belong to a community that uses one particular brand of milk, then yes, try some others. Look at the plant number on the bottle to make sure that what you try is not produced at the same plant as the brand(s) which did not work out for you. Either that, or don’t buy more than you need and make sure you finish a bottle before opening a new one.
Oh, and Reb Yoilish (Harav Yoel Moshe Teitelbaum) ZYA was the Satmar ROV, as was the Berach Moishe and as is your pick of R’Zalman or R’Aron. This is because he was the recognized rov in Satu-Mare, Romania, before the churban.
to dave375:
I didn’t say it was assur or metamtim es halev. I said where Cholov Yisroel is readily available one doesn’t have to give in to his desires and eat cholov stam. I went to a choshuve seminary and my choshuve menahel discussed this with us. He said the heter for cholov stam was one out of necessity ie: out of town where NO cholov Yisroel is available, and you also do not NEED chocolate candy or whatever.
Snooders613—I completely agree with you. The situation of Rockville/Potomac/Greater Washington area is similar to that of the large LA community. These DD are also frequented by members of the Silver Spring/Kemp Mill community nearby and should remain kosher–many people in the area will continue going and just eating donuts even though theyre not “kosher”.
I agree with those who say ppl should eat Cholov Yisroel. it’s one thing if you live out in nowhere, but in today’s day & age, especially here in the NY Metro area, there are so many Cholov Yisroel products freshly and readily available. There’s really no excuse to eat Cholov Stam, I’m sorry. R’ Moshe was talking about a diff generation to ppl who lived very far out.
kollelwife, here we go again. You apparently don’t agree with Rav Moshe’s two sons who say that it’s not just for people who live very far out. I wish people would stop projecting their own views onto psakim to make it fit their own view.
And another thing. To all the people who are making up this bit about Chalav Stam only being for people who can’t get CY, you might as well start a new shmooze that Pas Palter is also only bshaas hadchak, so why is anybody eating Dunkin Donuts or Stella Dora anyway?
Most of us who use only CY also use only pas Yisroel, so indeed the whole DD issue is moot for us. It’s just that the comments thread took the shape of a debate on CY and not pas Yisroel.
PS: A bakery awning in my neighborhood says “Pas Yoshon” instead of “Kemach Yoshon”! Are any communities really makpid on old (stale) bread? If so, avoid this bakery because their stuff is actually quite fresh 🙂 🙂 :).
it is clearly stated in yd112:5 that he there is a difference in quality even the mechaber who is oser pas palter will be matir.
Anonymouschochom says: SHAZAM: Your words are close to apikursos. D’Rabonons are at least as chamur as D’oraises. We find many times in Halacha where we are even more strict on D’rabonon’s.
Are you allowed to violate a d’Oraiso, bkum v’asey, as you are doing by being motzi shem ra, in order to defend a d’Rabbonon, which you are merely discussing but not doing bsha’as ma’aseh?
The issue of whether one is more chomur than the other is not relevant in this context.
Come see me on Erev Yom Kippur…
The doughnuts might not be considered Pas because the dough is deep fried and not baked. It would therefore be Potur from challah, meaning that it isn’t bread! ….do your homework
Bottom Line is..Bishas Hadchak, you can eat in any Dunkin Donuts as all of their ingredients are Kosher….All under the Chof-K
Unless you belong to my community or otherwise hold that you do not eat cholov stam even bishaas hadchak….but then again, when would you eat a donut bishaas hadchak – every gas station sells Wise potato chips, and many hold that potato chips do not have to be bishul yisroel because they’re not roui leshulchan melachim.
If chas vesholom a diabetic eats one because LA he would go into shock unless he gets quick sugar, that would be pikuach nefesh plain and simple.
And no, we still have another debate. Are donuts roui leshulchan melachim? (I don’t know – not only don’t I eat DD, but I wouldn’t feed a chemical laden Dunkin Donut to a stray cat because Peta would be on my case if I did :)) If so many hold that they must be bishul Yisroel regardless of the fact that they are fried.
i dont see any heter how a rav can give a hasgacha on d.d the store is open on shabbath and alot of the baking is done on shabbath and necnas and yotzeh cant be done on shabbath when ever money is involved the yidden always find koulus and hetering if u want to start a franchise u be very careful as the other person said treif is metamtain the lev and money is metamtain the brain
gitmishigeh do you mean all ingredients including the bacon and sausage mentioned in the article? Are you including the non-kosher oil that they may be using? are you including the non-kosher utensils? are those all under the kof k too? kosher ingredients cooked with tarfus is just as treif even bidchak JH gut gezukt! yodati veshochachti. this was a matter of discussion at the ou and in the end it was agreed that donuts are not pas. The flip side to this is that if so it falls into the rules of bishul akum and depends upon whether or not it is oleh al shulchan mlachim and can be totally asur.
yotze venichnas most definitely can be done on shabos. i know someone who went to check a bakery on his way home from shul on yom kipur. the real issue would be bishul akum of some products such as eggs but there are things to be done for that as well according to some poskim.
JH,
ok, good point about the doughnuts not being Pas. But I was just making a point of how people project their own shittos onto others. Rav Dovid and Rav Reuven are very accessible. All it takes is a phone call to discuss whether the heter was only for people who can’t get CY otherwise, instead of assuming things.