The Neturei Karta organization placed these posters throughout Yerushalayim today. It’s against the “other” Neturei Karta organization. (Click on the image to ENLARGE it.)
Menu
The Neturei Karta organization placed these posters throughout Yerushalayim today. It’s against the “other” Neturei Karta organization. (Click on the image to ENLARGE it.)
Popular Posts
Join the official YWN WhatsApp status
42 Responses
well welll ………………………..
what happened to fatah and hamas?
Toiv li toiras pichu.
Most of us non-zionists were waiting for this poster. Now I know that they are takkeh lshaim shumayim.
Shkoyich YW
Can I play the devils advocate and ask someone to explain what exactly was the Chilul Hashem in the NK members going to the Iranian Conference? They put Klal Yisroel in Danger I understand but in what way did they profane the name of hashem? Please be clear on this because people of very vague about this. I am not chas vesholom suggesting that there was no chilul hashem, I would just like to understand what it was.
Would someone please translate this. Thank you.
Finally people realize that the meshuganas from Iran are NOT N.K. The only N.K. is Harav Amrom Blau ZTV’L and company. They are big Tzaddikim.
Here’s the basic idea:
The second paragraph (bolded) takes the new NK to task for “standing to the right hand of those who hate Yisrael, whose sole purpose is butchery and annihilation.”
The next paragraph blasts them for fostering the impression that they are the only ones to oppose Zionism while all other haredi Jews accept it, when in fact all haredi Jews oppose Zionism.
The paragraph following objects to their attempt to bring
about the downfall of the state through this-worldly actions, when in fact
the existence of the state is a manifestation of the golus, which we are
supposed to accept b’ahavah and simply wait for it to be ended by Hahsem, not try to end it ourselves. (I think this is what they’re driving at there; it’s a little convoluted, to say the least. If, however, this is their
intent, they are basically accusing the new NK of doing precisely what they
themselves object to in Zionism; i.e. attempting to end the golus by temporal means.)
The thick bold letters that say: והוא ההיפך מדרך
התורה ודרך נטורי קרתא mean: “and this is the opposite of the way of Torah and the way of Neturei Karta.”
The slightly smaller but still big letters a bit lower down say: והננו להביע בריש גלי את התנגדותינו הברורה לזה, and mean:”And behold, we express explicitly our clear opposition to this.”
And that’s the gist of it, in 1000 words or less. Why are these signs so verbose?
Totally unimpressed. There are no signatures on that sign. I could have posted it and so could have anyone else. All it takes is a little gelt and some poetic license. Who is THIS NK vs THAT NK? If there really is THAT NK, who are they and what do they do to demote zionism?
It is well known that the N.K. (aka HaAidah HaChereidis), disassociated themselves with the “other” N.K. years ago. The Aidah of Rav Shmuel Salant, Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld, and Rav Y. L. Diskin most ably represented by Rav Yosef Scheinberger for over sixty years (as reported in YW) did not agree with their methods even if they did align themselves to any degree with their beliefs.
I concur. It is well known and established that the so-called N.K. that went to Iran are nothing but wannabes who are mostly based in Chutz L’Oretz, while the true and original N.K., established by Harav Amrom Blau ZTV’L, and based entirely in E. Yisroel, has nothing to do with them and dissacociated themselved from this new group long ago, and demanded they stop associating themselves with the N.K. name to which they have no rights.
which side is ahmadenajad on ????
Sorry, this was too little , too late! This should have come out months ago, and included signatures!
lakevent – I’ll bet that they are tearing their hair out b/c they didn’t follow YOUR time schedule and protocol!
lakevent, who appointed you poisek of if, when, and what is too late?
As far as I can see, they had no chiyuv to respond to a bunch of clowns at all.
irv. bocher lakewood:: ahmadenagad ym”s is a anti tzion & anti holacost so he’s mestama on weiss side kemuvan….
I’m not quite sure how to take this. Isn’t Moshe Hirsh the head of NK in Israel ?? He was the one pictured kissing Arafat and was on the Palestinian Authority payroll. Is this letter against him too, or is it just a ploy to deflect some of the anger against NK ??? Anyone have any ideas??
This is just terrible…fighting amongst yidden.
Moshe Hirsch is the head of nothing nowhere. He’s the self appointed head of a breakaway faction of NK which consists of himself, his son and a handful or 2 of violent losers. Moishele is now oiver ubotel and his son Yisroel (nothing to do with Eretz Yisroel or Am Yisroel for that matter) has taken over.
Yungerman1:
Moshe Hirsch is the head of the Israeli variation of the Monsey clowns, although he was there first, and they are the offshoot. He left America in the late 1950s. The real Neturei Karta, represented in this letter,(allegedly, as it is unsigned) is the Eida hachareidis types, many of whom have been identified in the earlier posts, if you read the entire thread.
yungerman1: Whether he is or is not (the head of NK in Israel) is not the point. The point is simply that the hashkafah/outlook that is the basis of what has been called the anti-zionist/anti-Israel chareidi/political group IS NOT being fulfilled through or led by Hirsch’s NK. The Aidah HaChereidis — originally one and the same as Agudah — is far from anti b’nei Israel even if they are anti a particular political philosophy. They are involved daily in tremendous amounts of chesed and numerous community affairs that benefit the community at large and, yes, the entire “state”. Tzedakkah, kashrus, batei din, etc., and many behind the scenes political actions.
Regardless of who wrote (or forged) the announcement publicized yesterday, the point is that the REAL NK is not the one in the news. The point was that the REAL NK are ohavei Yisroel and ovdei HaShem (love Jews and serve G-d).
Personal experiences have taught me that the people of the Aidah love ALL Yidden and want to and WILL help them whenever the opportunity arises. Avrohom avinu — the paradigm of chesed — made his guests wash their feet of the dust of their avodah zarah, insisted they make the proper blessings on food, etc. His love for all people was not questioned as a result of these actions. In fact the exact opposite is true. So why are signs requesting guests to dress properly when they enter the tents of the Aidah’s neighborhood so large a problem?
However, when a group — call them what you want — align themselves with those whose sworn ideals are to finish what Hitler ym”s and others have tried, this cannot be construed as service to G-d or as love if Jews.
THEY ARE JUST DOING SOME DAMAGE CONTROL, WELL ITS A LITTLE TOO LATE, AND WHO CARES, WHO THE REAL NK IS THEY ARE ALL THE SAME, THEY ALL STAND FOR THE DISTRUCTION OS ISRAEL
LATKE: Perhaps you have not been following the entire thread or have important information you have not shared with us.
HaRav Blau’s NK/Agudath Israel/Aidah HaChereidis, lead for the past 60 years by HaRav Yosef Scheinberger zt”l until his petirah last month, disassociated themselves from the NK more than 30 years ago. They did not agree with their methods and more-than-likely their hashgafah. They did not join with them in any way and it was made clear that they would not. The Aidah worked within the rules of the “law of the land” even if they did not or would not accept funding from them for political reasons. Demonstrations were always with proper permits, peaceful, etc. As mentioned in an earlier post, the Aidah is involved in many affairs from which the entire “state” benefits. They are involved in the political process as well, albeit from a back-stage position.
The Aidah, by-the-way, have their roots in the students of the Gaon of Vilna who came to settle “Eretz Yisroel” a bit more than 48 hours before ’48. They suffered for the land. They built the land. They must love it as well.
It is surely arguable that Jewish is defined by the Torah. In the “Yeshivah World” there should be little argument about that. So there should be likewise be little argument that the State of Israel, while a State of Jews, it is not a Jewish state. How to deal with / live in such a state is the point the Aidah, the (present day) Agudah, and ANY Jew needs to address. They may not all agree, but they need to address it as they need to know how the Torah views anything and everything.
How the Aidah or anyone else views their place in the State does not effect how they feel or act towards Jews — of any background or level of observance. The Aidah members I know turn their back on no Jew. The “new” NK has.
I think this letter is a start, BUT, I would’ve liked to see mention of the holocaust matter too
Shuali: You write: “It is surely arguable that Jewish is defined by the Torah.”
You then conclude: “So there should be likewise be little argument that the State of Israel, while a State of Jews, it is not a Jewish state.”
I don’t see how it follows.
The BOTTOM line is there are some clowns (like those in Iran) claiming to be Neterei Karta, but are NOT. They have nothing to do with Harav Amrom Blau ZTV’L of Neteurei Karta.
Otherwise, ALL Torah Yidden, obviously including the Yeshiva Velt, that the state and zionism are NOT judasim, just misguided jews.
The Rabbanut is part of the state. Are they and their piskei halachah not “Jewish?”
The menorah and mogen dovid are jewish symbols, does that make the zionist states usage of them any more jewish?
kishke: “part of the state” Exactly. Don’t get me wrong. They are respectable, well meaning, learned, dedicated Torah observant scholars. But they are “part of the State.” The State’s recent involvement in Mehadrin kashrus, marriages and divorces are very good examples. They ARE “part” of the State. They do not define the State. Many of their stated policies are often far from first choice (l’chatchilah) precisely because they are “part” of the State.
So are they Jewish or not? You said that “the state,” which I take to mean it and all its parts, is not Jewish. Now it sounds like you’re saying that some parts are Jewish.
And what about love for Eretz Yisrael, which is certainly a part of the Zionist ideal? Is that not “Jewish?”
kishke,
The state and zionism is not jewish. Its usage of jewish organs and symbols does not make it jewish. And the zionists selective pursuing certain mitzvos (like love of E. Yisroel) is nice and noteworthy, but does not make them practitioners of judaism.
The U.K. appoints a Chief rabbi. That does not make Britain a jewish state. (Even if I am technically wrong about the appointment, you get the point.)
kishke. now we are arguing if the state is jewish, good for jews, and does zionism have any thing to do with torah life?.
which is a basic difference between your mind and the jerusalem nk
but we all agree that its an internel jewish matter it DOES NOT have to do with the arabs or other jew haters.
THE JERUSALEM NK IS ANTI ZIONISIM NOT PRO JEW HATERS
the chutznik nk has nothing to do with torah or E.Y. only pro jew hatred
SYMCL,
I would not dignify the so-called chutnik with the Neteurei Karta name (as they crave.) They have no nothing to do with the true Torah’dik Neteurei Karta of HaRav Amrom Blau Zichrona Tzaddik V’Kodesh L’Vrocha.
My point is that the label “Jewish” can apply also to non-Torah entities. As I demonstrated, there are many, many Jewish aspects to the state (not least of which that it is made up of Jews!), from holidays to cultural practices to it’s no-questions-asked acceptance of Jews to its funding of charedi schools, so it’s silly to say (as various posters here have) that it’s not Jewish. That it’s not Torah-oriented goes without saying (although it does lend its support to various Torah endeavors, such as the Rabbanut and the Torah schools), but Jewish it most certainly is.
kishke, your point is well understood, but you must realize how you define ”Jewish” would equaly apply to the Reform. What we are discussing is not so much as who is Jewish, but what is ”Judaism.” And it is on that point where the state and zionism fail.
“but you must realize how you define ‘’Jewish’’ would equaly apply to the Reform.”
But of course it applies to the Reform! Surely you do not claim that the Reform and Conservative movements are not Jewish. What then are they, Christian?
As for the state not representing Judaism, that goes without saying. They are known not as the Judaism State, but as the Jewish State, which they unquestionably are.
Thank you all for the clarification
Boy. I feel SO relieved now that the anonymous poster that was signed by no one clarified things about NK. Oh, I get it, there’s a good NK and there’s a bad NK, and we shouldn’t confuse the two. Let’s see if I get this straight. According to the poster: The good NK shares the exact same Hashkofos (of opposing Zionism and the State of Israel) as the bad NK, it’s just that the bad NK went too far actually supporting Israel’s enemies. Meaning, that had the bad NK not gone as far as they did, they would be endorsed and synonymous with the good NK. Forgive me if I’m not buying into whatever they are shoveling, but it’s not ehrlich. It’s finger-pointing and scapegoating when self-introspection and accountabliity are in order. Bad acts come from bad Haskafos. Bad NK comes from bad Hashkofos, which come from good NK. The semantical distinctions presented in the poster are meaningless in today’s world. The time has come for someone responsible in that community to klench their fist, pound their chest, say Al Cheit, and confess that they were wrong, that their bad Hashkafos bred and spawned the current bad NK monster we see before us. No amount of distancing themselves from their ugly creation will suffice.
boorich, you missed the boat on this one. there is no bad nk. there is a bad group that falsely calls themselves nk. the poster is telling you that they have nothing to do with one, real, and true nk. everyone knows the nk was started by and are tzaddikim.
kishke: You write: “My point is that the label “Jewish” can apply also to non-Torah entities.” Yes. The same way “The Great Imposter” could be called a pilot, a doctor, etc. Just because you include Jewish customs into your own — break-away — culture, does not mean you or your culture represent authentic Jewish behavior.
You continue: “As I demonstrated, there are many, many Jewish aspects to the state (not least of which that it is made up of Jews!)” That logic, it seems to me, would lead to the conclusion that we all live in one large Muslim “State”.
Then you write: “from holidays to cultural practices to its no-questions-asked acceptance of Jews to its funding of charedi schools.” Funding to chareidi school?! Where do get your news from? Funding is always a fight and has been steadily decreasing over the past several years. This in spite of the fact that it is probably fair to say that the vast majority of new olim are chareidi.
And then: “so it’s silly to say (as various posters here have) that it’s not Jewish. That it’s not Torah-oriented goes without saying (although it does lend its support to various Torah endeavors, such as the Rabbanut and the Torah schools), but Jewish it most certainly is.” Again, as various posters have said here, each in their own way, what is Jewish if NOT Torah-based and Torah-lead?
boorichayim: Jopseph is right when he says that “everyone knows the nk was started by and are tzaddikim.” And as was posted earlier, EVERYONE agreed with them in principal until the “State” was formed. Then, there were those who believed that we should deal with the government while there were those who felt otherwise. Each one seeking da’as Torah.
As far as your comment “bad Hashkafos bred and spawned the current bad NK monster we see before us” I would have to disagree AND agree. The bad hashkafah to which you refer — the one for which the Aidah, Satmar, NK, etc. have become all-too-well known is not bad. It was and is the opinion of great Talmidei Chachomim, Tzadikkim, and Yerei Shomayim. The true BAD hashkafah is the one that allowed anyone to act for the sake of Heaven without asking those that make learning, understanding, applying and practicing the word of Heaven their life-long goal.
The fact that NK was started with tzadikkim, means what, exactly? What does that have to do with the here and now? The present NK organization has no tzaddikim running it now, it’s actions are not dictated by Daas Torah, and it’s like a rudderless boat without a captain careening down the river. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
boorich, re-read my last comment. I said the meshuganas who were in the news merely falsely claim they are nk. They are NOT in fact the nk. The (original, true, and only) nk are still complete tzaddikim.
They are not responsable for a couple of meshuganas unauthorized parading around the media in their name. They can do nothing other than protest that descration of their name (which they did, whether your favorite media outlet reported it or not–most likely not.)
kishke: On the comment “but you must realize how you define ‘’Jewish’’ would equally apply to the Reform.” you write:
“But of course it applies to the Reform! Surely you do not claim that the Reform and Conservative movements are not Jewish. What then are they, Christian?”
At the risk of repeating myself and many other posters, they ARE Jews and WE LOVE THEM ALL as brothers. We should respect them and care for them as we would any Jew. We should help them to understand an appreciate who they are — their history, culture, and responsibilities. They, however are not acting/practicing Judaism to its fullest. Perhaps they do not know any better. Perhaps they have been mis-educated or under-educated. But they are not practicing Judaism to its fullest. They are not “Jewish” in the sense that Jew-ish means Jew-like. The Torah and its sages define what is Jew-like, so how can one who does not keep Shabbos, does not keep kosher, etc claim to be Jew-like. HE/SHE IS ABSOLUTELY A JEW, but his/her JewISHness can only honestly be defined by his/her mitzvah observance. And we are not here to judge that. (And indeed there are many mitzvah observant individuals whose character betrays their Jewishness. TRUE. But we can say that any individual or group who make a shitah/philosophy, or dare I say a religion, out of picking and choosing which mitzvot they will keep, cannot be called full practicing Jews/Jewish/Judaism as much as one who make a shitah/philosophy out of disobeying traffic or tax laws cannot be called such.
Yes, in many ways, the State has become a place where “being Jewish” is a pleasure, but it is not a JewISH state.
You further write: “As for the state not representing Judaism, that goes without saying. They are known not as the Judaism State, but as the Jewish State, which they unquestionably are.”
That has been the point many of us have been saying now for some time. It is not a Jewish State, it is a state of, for, and by Jews.
a) i know them in israel.
there is ohel sarah which would go to iran according to their ideals but don’t go due to legal problems and shidduchim problems & their rabbinical advisories don’t like it.
weiss has serious mental problems & in fact did not go with the other nk but went on his own accord, in fact some meetings he did not take partin even.
b) torah veirah are far more neutral-sort of like satmar, they are lessright winged & don’t vote or take money but violent acts by nemies or joining up with the arabs is forbidden. but a atzeress (conference) or demonstration takes place bi-weekly roughly