From potato chips to brisket, Jews who keep kosher scan groceries for telltale letters K, OU, KAJ promising that the food meets Jewish dietary laws. Now a major Jewish body wants to add a new symbol signaling not how the food was prepared, but how the workers who handled it were treated.
The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism is drawing up standards for a proposed hekhsher tsedek — or righteous certification — indicating that employees worked in safe factories and weren’t exploited, among other things. The certification would supplement — not replace — the kosher certification.
No one in the Jewish world has ever really tried to marry the socially responsible laws of how we treat workers with the laws of how we should eat, said Rabbi Morris Allen, who chairs the committee studying the new certification.
We were so concerned that the animal is slaughtered in the most humane way, that we overlooked the person standing right next to it, he said.
The move gained momentum after a May article in the Forward, a national Jewish newspaper, describing the long hours, unsafe working conditions and exploitation of employees at a kosher meat-packing plant in Iowa.
She has worked 10- to 12-hour night shifts, six nights a week, said the Forward story, describing one of the immigrant workers. Her cutting hand is swollen and deformed, but she has no health insurance to have it checked. She works for wages, starting at $6.25 an hour and stopping at $7, that several industry experts described as the lowest of any slaughterhouse in the nation.
The article prompted the New York-based United Synagogue to investigate. The slaughterhouse has since told United Synagogue it is reviewing some of the concerns.
If the certification is adopted, it would join the growing movement of socially conscious shopping, from free-trade coffee to conflict-free diamonds. Allen thinks the labeling would entice Jews and non-Jews, the same way Ben & Jerry’s attracted an ice cream buying public willing to pay a premium for fanciful flavors sprinkled with progressive practices.
Such a certification would appeal to the Levenbergs, a Mountain View couple who keep kosher and recently discussed the hypocrisy of being righteous in one thing, but being something else with your pocketbook, Idelle Levenberg said.
However, cost would be a factor. I’d be willing to pay more, said Harry Levenberg, a retired rabbi. How much more, I don’t know.
Already, kosher food is typically pricier than its conventional counterpart. At Empire Kosher, for instance, the 100,000 chickens processed daily must be killed by hand under the supervision of a rabbi. The bird is put into a water bath, then salted to draw out all the blood, and later rinsed. All those steps increase time and cost.
Jews draw their dietary rules from the Torah, though there is great interpretation on certain aspects of kosher.
It’s the traditional interpretations that most concern Simcha Elharrar, who works as a program coordinator at Chabad of Greater South Bay in Palo Alto. To observe her ultra-Orthodox faith, she orders meat from Los Angeles, where she’s certain that it’s been prepared in the strictest kosher standards, and buys milk only from dairies where a rabbi has overseen the milking.
“What’s most important to us is kashrut,” she said, using the Hebrew word for kosher. A certification attesting to working conditions, she said, probably won’t change her buying habits.
The certification committee hopes to finalize its guidelines this winter, which then must be approved by rabbis and United Synagogue, the association that authorized the committee and represents the nation’s Conservative synagogues. If all goes smoothly, the certifications could start as soon as next year.
It’s unclear how prevalent they will be. Empire Kosher won’t decide whether to pursue the certification until it learns more about its specific requirements or about the intended market.
There are other logistics. Though some Conservative rabbis approve food and restaurants, United Synagogue does not have a formalized operation such as the Orthodox Union, whose OU symbol is found on 400,000 kosher products.
Allen acknowledged that the any hekhsher tsedek certification would unfold in stages across the United States, unrolling perhaps in kosher meat plants and then kosher bakeries.
The Orthodox Union has no plans to create a workplace certification.
“It’s not that we don’t care about those issues, but we rely on the federal government,” said Rabbi Menachem Genack, rabbinic administrator for the OU’s kashrut division. He noted that agencies such as the Department of Labor and Occupational Safety & Health Administration already keep watch on workers’ pay and working conditions.
“We don’t want to impose more on those companies than are required by law,” Genack said.
Legal standards can fall short of religious ones, Allen said. For instance, he asks: Is it morally proper to require minimum-wage workers to buy their own mandatory safety equipment?
Just as the Bible dictates how Jews should eat, it also outlines how they should treat workers, Allen said, quoting from Leviticus: Thou shalt not rule over him with rigor.
Rabbi Ari Cartun of Congregation Etz Chayim in Palo Alto applauded the proposed certification and said it would “absolutely” influence his grocery shopping.
He said: “You’re not able to benefit from oppression.”
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34 Responses
. While it is obvious that workers should be fairly treated etc etc etc. (and it has truth and on the whole no one can really argue with the pesukim they quote) it is just an ingenious way to gain a seat at the “kashrus Table” without admitting to the need for kashrus.
This is a total scam and the first step to pave the way for a “conservative” hechsher. Even if the product were mehadrin, I would refuse to use anything with a touchy feely “tzedek” tag from the koifrim.
When frum yidden – שומרי תורה ומצוות – act שלא כהוגן – it is a chillul Hashem. Whether it is בין אדם לחבירו or בין אדם למקום. This is true, regardless of what the Federal government mandates.
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If we need Conservative Jews to point this out to us, we have a problem.
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Let us start looking inward. Let me change that. I will b’li neder start looking inward. Now.
I wonder if the conservative movement (movement as in moving away from Torah) is next going to ask for “kosher” treatment of the employees at all the treif restaurants they frequent and the treif grocery store butchers that they do business with! I think that this is just an attempt to SLAP Torah true Judaism by claiming that they (conservatives) are compassionate and the Orthodox are cruel – this whole to do is nothing more than that! The O-U statement is correct – there are U.S. Governmant Labor laws in effect.
Isn’t it the job of the US government to make sure workers are treated fairly? If some company gets a “hekhsher tsedek” the I’d bet that they were already treating their employees well, and simply want to publicize it. I doub’t this program would ever get a company to treat its workers better in order to get the cirtification.
This is just one more perversion of Torah commandments, like breakaway groups (Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Saducees, Karaites, among others) have attempted to implement over the millenia.
Bain Adam L’Chaveiro and protecting the worker halachos are just as significant as Kashrus, but the AREN’T Kashrus. If we allow this misleading venture to blossom, we are accessories to the betrayal of our Torah.
How are we involved? If we, the consumers, make it clear to the plants that we will not purchase products of companies this Conservative development, they will hesitate to join the new bandwagon.
How can any Jewish company even think about strengthening the deceptive and misleading practices of the Conservative movement? We, as consumers, can assert how we feel such a development should be answered. Kashrus is not about treatment of workers, and we need to retain clarity and vision on this devious issue.
Isn’t this what conservative (descendents of) Jews have always done?
They are trying to prove that an ethical position is more important than halochos that they consider inconvenient, and therefore they try to prove them irrelevent.
Do they intend to put their (chilul) hechsher on non-kosher food if it meets their ethical criteria? If so I am moving out of the country.
The obvious chilul hashem is the first issue but there are other issues.
We are in golus. We don’t have any business supervising the goyim regarding ethical issues. Kashrus is different, because it is. This would be a dangerous political position.
Lastly, conservative (descendents of) Jews are a dying movement.
Their own national organization admits it.
In the past 20 years people married out, became reform or modern orthodox. This is a grasp for relevance. A”H it will be the end once and for all of the ultimate sheker “Movement”.
see kashrus magazine for a discussion of the need to supervise choshen mishpat. i don’t think that will be their standard.
illini07,
It’s not my place to comment on what Kashrus agencies in EY do.
I can assume, however, that extra requirements in EY do not supercede Kashrus, and is therefore “extra” versus “instead”.
This is a fundamental difference, and we need to be cognizant and vigilant regarding further deterioration in Mitzvah observance. The Conservative venture here is sly and holds great danger in particular for non-affiliated Jews, who will be subject to even more confusion over what Torah is, and the difference between Torah ethics and lehavdil politically correct ethics.
Making Kashrus into a “worker protection program” is an agenda, not a passion for Mitzvos. And incidentally, I do feel qualified to comment on this issue. My work in Kiruv has provided me with opportunities to interface with innumerable Jews from all backgrounds, and my work has necessitated historical and practical research into these movements, including the Reform movement and its tactically more conservative breakaway group, the Conservative movement.
We who are loyal to Torah, must take a powerful and unyielding stand against this new idea, and send a clear message of unacceptability to companies considering this terrible step.
NaarYisroel and the others: don’t forget that the great majority of hechsher products are not the heimishe ones, i.e., they’re not produced by frum companies. So therefore we Yidden are not responsible for how goyishe employers treat their workers, and any such hechsher will be a plain joke, which the whole C. movement is anyway.
zion:
How much would you like to pay for a pound of meat so that unskilled laborers can get an engineer’s salary and pay dues to the corrupt unions that want to infiltrate our kosher slaughterhouses? I’ll learn shechita and schecht myself in some field in Wyoming before I pay for so called ethical treatment of workers that basically amounts to supporting organized crime ridden unions.
I have a great name and symbol for them: they can be the OinK with a picture of a pig on it showing its hooves to all but its mouth hiding in the dirt. The conservative movement once again shows its split hooves to show all how “kosher” it is but hides the mouth which does not chew it’s cud. no doubt their mashgichim will be allowed to drive to make inspections on shabbos and they will have no compunction to use a humane method to slaughter which will not conform with the shulkhan arukh’s rules of shechita. think of the possibilities corn fed organic humanely slaughtered pork,lol organic pesticide free grapes for wine made by goyim. Pehaps they will have gay rabbis as mashgichim
Yitzd- A+, This whole thing is preposterous. Their whole idea of “hekhsher tsedek” ie. treating workers properly, has nothing to do with food! If their hearts really bleed for mistreated workers, they can donate to Amnesty International. If they were to try to implement this and only by items from places that treat workers properly, they couldn’t buy anything made in China!
It’s simply a way to feel good although not keeping Kosher. “We (the conservative movement) are concerned about “Kosher” treatment of workers”. And it’s also a way to say “we are holier than the orthodox; they are concerned about Kosher food but they failed to be concerned with how to treat ppeople”.
I can’t help but notice that this proposal has stirred up quite a bit of backlash.
The statement that we can rely on the government to ensure that workers are treated fairly is laughable to anyone who has looked at the treatment of factory (and, especially, slaughterhouse) workers. “Fast Food Nation” (the book) is a good place to start on this topic. It’s somewhat ironic that the ultra-Frum (including myself) don’t rely on government supervision for something like Cholov Yisroel, but are perfectly comfortable leaving issues such as employee treatment to the authorities. You would think we would insist on Mashgichim, random inspections etc.
I haven’t posted on this board before, but am a little appalled as to what gets thrown around that is either false (engineer salaries?), completely unsubstantiated (organized crime?).
Isn’t Bein Adam LaChaveiro or (spit three times) Tikkun Olam a part of Orthodox/Yeshivishe Judaism? Or are there some aspects of this religion that (like the Conservatives) we simply enjoy making a big deal of more than others…
U have upgraded the entire site C. Kol Yisrael.
“Isn’t Bein Adam LaChaveiro or (spit three times) Tikkun Olam a part of Orthodox/Yeshivishe Judaism? Or are there some aspects of this religion that (like the Conservatives) we simply enjoy making a big deal of more than others… ”
“CharedimKolYisroel”- Your tone sounds very familiar… For everyone else, V’Hameivin Yavin… Perhaps your handle is a bit deceitful?
Also, Tikkun Olam is Letaken Olam BEMALCHUS SHAKAI – to spread Torah – not to fight for all kinds of non-Jewish causes such as labor unions at the expense of Jews who need to eat kosher.
I’m not sure I understand, Sarah.
Are you saying that I have posted here before under a different identity? This is not the case. I have been reading the site daily for a few weeks and this is my first post. I’m not sure how I could “prove” that, other than giving my word.
As far as the username, again, I’m not sure what you mean. Is it similar to some other poster’s?
I know the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch writes that beis din is supposed to make sure that businesses use fair weights and measures, and it wouldn’t surprise me if Choshen Mishpat requires fair working conditions (e.g. timely payment of salaries). Just because the Conservatives have taken up the issue (and may well be doing so for reasons that we might not support), I was once told by a gadol, “Accept the truth from whoever says it.” We have a Torah and a Shulchan Aruch to tell us what to do, our main concern should be applying what they say about these issues. Does anyone have knowledge of the Torah approach to these matters?
Sarah,
With respect to your posts above, I don’t see how this “Hechscher” proposal is “a perversion … an agenda, not a passion for Mitzvos.” While I wouldn’t eat a Conservative Hechscher, why can’t the proposal be seen as representing a passion for the Mitzvah of treating people with respect or Tzedek Tzedek Tirdof? Calling it a “terrible step” is a bit much, don’t you think?
As one of the posters pointed out, Orthodox Kashrus agencies have no problem incorporating non-food criteria into their Hechscherim; I think that this can be viewed in the same light.
It would be a shame to let your obvious (albeit understandable) distaste for Conservative Judaism cloud your judgement with respect to what seems to be a very positive proposal. No one is saying that Orthodox businesspeople treat their employees poorly. A “Hechscher” like this simply gives consumers the opportunity to support companies whose treatment of employees is of a higher Bein Adam LaChaveiro standard.
Itzik_s,
You’re not playing fair.
You imply that this proposal is part of a “fight for all kinds of non-Jewish causes such as labor unions at the expense of Jews who need to eat kosher.”
Once you ast it in this light, it is, of course, easy to shoot down, but I fail to see how treating employees better is a non-Jewish causes, and I fail to see how it is at anyone’s expense.
Whose expense is this at?
The question is not whether we should be doing anything about these issues but whether these issues exist at all in factories that produce kosher products or for that matter any products in the US. Free trade is also permitted according to the Shulchan Aruch, and if there were no profit motive we’d all be doing our own shechita and baking our own bread. This so called kashrus certificate leads to an attempt to enforce cause of the week nonsense like free trade coffee, renewable raisins, and who knows what’s next. Kashrus is kashrus, not unionism, environmentalism, global warming, organic farming (not that those who think organic is better for health cannot get mehadrin organic products now, but again, this is because it is PROFITABLE to produce such products) or anything else connected to left wing politics and an attempt by those who do not live according to Torah to claim that they have one up on those who do.
Itzik,
You write that “This so called kashrus certificate leads to an attempt to enforce cause of the week nonsense.”
What exactly is being enforced, and on whom? People can choose what to buy and what not to buy, and companies will continue to offer such products if it is profitable to do so.
Also, if “Kashrus is Kashrus,” and not anything else, should Kashrus agencies base their decision on whether to grant a Hechscher on anything other than food-related issues (i.e. co-ed mingling, holding New Year’s Eve parties etc.)?
Finally, why is treating employees well part of “left wing politics?” The Torah talks about paying workers on time and treatment of slaves well before the granola-crunchers started roaming the earth.
“It would be a shame to let your obvious (albeit understandable) distaste for Conservative Judaism cloud your judgment with respect to what seems to be a very positive proposal. “No one is saying that Orthodox businesspeople treat their employees poorly.”
That’s correct- no one is saying that Orthodox businessmen treat their employees poorly, because most food companies word-wide that carry Kashrus certification are not Jewish owned, not to mention Orthodox owned.
As a matter of fact, even most of the Jewish labeled foodstuffs are produced in non-Jewish plants using special runs. Orthodox owned food production plants are a small minority.
“A “Hechscher” like this simply gives consumers the opportunity to support companies whose treatment of employees is of a higher Bein Adam LaChaveiro standard.”
The Conservative movement has amply demonstrated its lack of fealty to basic Torah commandments such as Kashrus, Shabbos, etc. In fact, in all significant areas, the Conservative movement has been a scant 5-10 years behind Reform. The difference has been in tactic, not substance.
David Lieber, president of the International Association of Conservative Rabbis once explained that “I do not believe in the literal divine authorship of the Torah”.
JTS Professor Neil Gillman taught that “The biblical account of the revelation is classic myth… Torah then represents the canonical statement of our myth”.
The Conservative movement does not have loyalty to Torah or its Mitzvos. They do not halachically observe Shabbos, Kashrus, or just about any other Mitzvah in a halachic sense. But now you trust them on this Mitzvah of Bein Adam L’Chaveiro?
Here’s the answer: you are either unaware or misinformed in the extreme, or you are in fact a member of the Conservative or similar movement yourself, and are using this forum to further the spread of misinformation.
As Torah observant Jews, we long for the day in which members of Conservative and other Torah-rejecting movements truly come home to Torah, and accept the Divinity of the Mitzvos. Until that yearned for day, we will stand steadfast against the spread of the perversion of Torah-true Judaism, unaltered throughout the millennia.
It is at the expense of:
1) A particular factory owner who is a big baal tzedakah and whose workers are treated equitably given that they are unskilled and very easily replaced.
This is NOT about mistreated employees. It is about unions, who in the end make things worse for everyone. In the leftist mindset, unions are part of so called tikkun olam, and they close their eyes to union corruption and favoritism. In the end, if this goes through, we’ll import more and more meat from South America where wages are dirt low and no one will benefit (judging by prices for Uruguayan shechita, the cost of transport cancels out any savings during processing).
2) The consumer. We are paying top dollar as it is for top kashrus standards. This I understand – we are a small market. We do not have to pay more to support labor unions, just because a band of koifrim wants to show that their touchy feely nonsense is superior chas vesholom to Torah. You know full well that any rise in labor costs is passed on to the consumer, as it has to be.
Shouldn’t they start by making their own synagogues ethical places, I have heard of more than one case where a Conservative rabbi was more or less thrown out on the street, because he was trying to bring in more religious observance. There is a case right now where a Conservative rabbi in NJ started a minyan with a mechitza downstairs, and now that he retired they are pushing for the kosher minyan to be evicted.
They kicked out the orthodox rabbi who was mashgiach of the cafeteria at the Jewish Theological Seminary after 40 years and din’t replace him with another orthodox rabbi!
If they are having such a hard time keeping their own instutions ethical workplaces why are they trying to bring ethics to other people’s workplaces…. is “kshot atzmecha veachar kach kshot acheirim” only an orthodox teaching…..
As YO puts it: “Do they intend to put their (chilul) hechsher on non-kosher food if it meets their ethical criteria? If so I am moving out of the country.”
In response:
I constantly hear about how terrible Conservative Jews are in terms of Torah observance.
When I was growing up, there were only two synagogues in town… a Conservative shul and a Reform temple. Until I went East and became frum, the synagogue I attended was Conservative. There were two Conservative rabbis, who had served as the pulpit rabbis between 1980 – 1994. Both of these rabbis refused to eat food without a hechsher, did not eat in treif restaurants and they walked to shul on Shabbos. The kept kosher kitchens at home with separate meat and dairy dishes. Neither of them turned on lights on Shabbos, used the phone, etc. Our mikveh was the only certifiably kosher mikveh in the area and was designed according to the instructions of Rabbi Yirmiya Katz of Chabad as all Jews, Orthodox and non-Orthodox were going to be invited to use the mikveh. They were a model for many of the town’s non-Orthodox Jews.
Don’t judge every single Conservative Jew as being “treif”…
BTW: I have a chavrusa who used to live in Postville, IA and he told me that the workers in the meat plant are treated terribly. As Jews we should be concerned that ALL human beings are treated with dignity, especially when these people are involved with kashrus. I also agree that this does not fall under the technical category of kashrus but it’s a good thing to do.
This is the agenda:
1) This kefiradige movement sees and is jealous of the success of real kiruv, which has drawn away some who would have otherwise fallen for the lies of the kefira.
2) Therefore, the kefiraniks invent a cause out of thin air, at the expense of a big supporter of kiruv efforts (this all started with accusations of certain practices at a major shlachthoiz).
3) Not getting anywhere against their intended target, they decide to come up with this new certification, which is meant to show that they chas vesholom have higher standards than the Torah.
4) I do not think they will get anywhere with it, but if they do, they will probably attract only producers of borderline kosher products. So, a well meaning consumer who might be on the path to true Torah gets confused and picks a product with the “OiNK” (I love that one, YitzD) and in essence is eating something that might soothe her misguided conscience, but is kosher only according to the most lenient opinions.
5) If chas vesholom this does take hold, producers will be forced to pay union rates for unskilled labor, which will raise prices for all of us. And that will force some traditional families to switch to non kosher.
As for kosher certifications being withheld from non-tznius venues, I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, better that those who are celebrating should at least have the opportunity to keep the mitzvah of kashrus. On the other hand, those who object to these kinds of affairs being held for Jews on the premises of a Jewish owned establishment in EY should know that these affairs do take place in a certain venue. So, the best solution would be a certificate saying that the food is kosher, but the venue is “not recommended”.
And for the last time – this is about what the lefties consider treating employees well, not about what the Torah or US law considers treating employees well. I know for a fact that semi-skilled unionized labor costs employers the same as a starting engineer does. That is not fair to the employer, and in the end the consumer pays. There are immigrants and yes, people who want to get off welfare, who would love to work but UNIONS make it too costly for employers to hire them. According to the Chelm logic of the lefties, better for one person to eat far too well for what he does and two people to be on welfare than for three people to eat decently. THAT is what this kefira movement wants to ram down our throat.
And yes, Sarah, I agree that there is a good chance our so called Charedim Kol Yisrael is a member of a certain movement, or a fellow traveler on the outskirts of Modern Orthodoxy who would not know a container of cholov yisroel cottage cheese if it stared him in the face!
Gevalt.
I didn’t anticipate the harsh words, but maybe I was a little naive.
It seems like the last few posts that disagree with my opinion on this matter have taken one of two approaches. They have either attacked the Conservative movement in general (unethical, jealous, not much different than reform) or attacked me personally (unaware … in the extreme, not Orthodox, not Cholov Yisroel).
This is somewhat hurtful (the second part, at least — I’m not here to stick up for Conservative Judaism). I went to Yeshiva, go to Shul and put on Tefillin every morning (two pairs), learn almost every day, and yes — I pay $4.99 for my cottage cheese.
I work as a lawyer, and, in my line of work, changing the subject by attacking something unrelated or (worse) attacking the person making the argument (this is called an ad hominem attack, for all the Latin junkies) are not the hallmarks of a strong argument. My posts have been respectful, if questioning, and I intend to keep them that way.
The economics that Itzik presents are flawed. Additional labour costs may indeed be passed on to the consumer, but only if the consumer is willing to pay for them, which is the consumer’s choice. If people are not willing to pay any more for “fair-labour” cookies, they will not sell. No one is forcing the producers to obtain this certification, and no one is forcing the consumers to buy them. Personally, I think some companies will opt for it and most will, leaving consumers to decide whether they will pay an extra buck for the product, as is the case with organic products now.
On a final note, it’s ironic that a discussion about treating people with respect has yielded such disrespectful remarks. For someone to say that the person who disagrees with them must not be Shomer Torah Umitzvos (or even not Cholov Yisroel) is not acceptable.
It seems like everything that can be said has been said on this topic (which is moving closer to the bottom of the webpage anyway). I hope that I have been able to get my opinion across respectfully, and look forward to discussing other topics (some of which we may even agree on!).
I will leave the last word to my “opponents,” and hope that they will make a break from the personal attacks and leave things on a civil note.
Good night.
It has been insightful reading your posts, c. k. yisroel, excellent point to leave things on a civil note. (boring but correct).
CKY,
“Gevalt…I work as a lawyer, and, in my line of work, changing the subject by attacking something unrelated or (worse) attacking the person making the argument… are not the hallmarks of a strong argument.”
‘Gevalt’ is certainly appropriate here.
As a lawyer, it is surprising that you hadn’t the courage to respond directly to the primary points, but rather chose the victim approach of “hey, you’re attacking me, no fair!”.
We are strongly disagreeing with your position, and have presented a cogent counter-argument. You, on the other hand, have evaded the crux of the dialogue, and chose to simply ignore our presentations. I presume this isn’t your courtroom behavior, unless you’re a recent graduate.
“I didn’t anticipate the harsh words, but maybe I was a little naive.”
No, I don’t think you are naive. I think you know exactly what you are doing.
“It seems like the last few posts that disagree with my opinion on this matter have taken one of two approaches. They have either attacked the Conservative movement in general (unethical, jealous, not much different than reform)”
Pretty semantics are a poor substitute for an explanation. Far from attacking the Conservative movement, we have submitted our observations, and provided some supportive facts. I’m sorry you feel that “not much different than reform” is an “attack”; I suppose you also feel that observations on the number of cranial nerve pairs is an attack on the nervous system.
“or attacked me personally (unaware … in the extreme, not Orthodox, not Cholov Yisroel).”
Playing victim still doesn’t answer the issue. And no, you cannot comment on an Orthodox blog in support of a Torah-rejecting group’s latest adventure without being subjected to the responses of knowledgeable and well educated commentors. More than a polite euphemism to straightforward terminology, “unaware in the extreme” was an opportunity for you to save face, and acknowledge ignorance of the issues.
“On a final note, it’s ironic that a discussion about treating people with respect has yielded such disrespectful remarks. For someone to say that the person who disagrees with them must not be Shomer Torah Umitzvos (or even not Cholov Yisroel) is not acceptable.”
I am truly sorry, CKY, but your position contravenes the Da’as Torah of ALL legitimate streams of Torah-true Judaism, which does not support any dimension or position of the Conservative movement. It is natural to suspect that one who advocates for the Conservative shares their values on other issues as well. Your profession should have taught you this well.
“I will leave the last word to my “opponents,” and hope that they will make a break from the personal attacks and leave things on a civil note.”
As you haven’t replied substantively to anything yet, perhaps you haven’t had any word yet, beyond a pretty pen.
Please, be mature and don’t resort to the “personal attack” tactic instead of providing a proper response. We aren’t your opponents, and this isn’t a debating team. It also isn’t a forum that will legitimatize the Conservative viewpoint.
Our deep respect for all Jews does not extend to respect for movements that have trampled on the Torah, and mislead thousands of well-meaning Jews.
In my professional life, I have come to know many legitimate and valid streams of Jewish life. Although I am a thorough “Yeshiva” person, I have a good understanding of the derech of RYBS, and your views are as far from mainstream MO as scientology.
Thus, we find it challenging to understand your advocacy for Conservative “Kashrus” here. I will concede that “Open Orthodoxy” such as “Yeshivat” Chovevei Torah may hold views more in consonance with your stance.
Methinks perhaps you stumbled onto the wrong website. This blog is for the Yeshiva world, and we make no apologetics for our fealty to Torah and Torah values. Two pairs of Tefilin notwithstanding, your position belies your cottage cheese. And no, this is not a personal attack; it is, rather, a significant observation. And one which will lend greater perspective in the event that you choose to dialogue on other topics.
Be well.
I have to agree with c.k.yisroel… Being concerned about people’s welfare is not an antithesis to Torah observance in any way…
When Sarah says: “Isn’t Bein Adam LaChaveiro or (spit three times) Tikkun Olam a part of Orthodox/Yeshivishe Judaism?” I have to answer:
Before I became frum, (while I lived in an essentially Conservative Jewish community) I enjoyed well-paying jobs with excellent benefits and compensation as well as very good working conditions. Many of my employers were Jewish and at least moderately observant.
After I moved East and lived and worked in the frum community, I was shocked to find that especially in the more religious sectors, wages are very, very low and the employer’s expectations are very high in terms of productivity. Not only this, almost every job I have held in the frum community has almost zero benefits (just look how the Rebbeim in yeshivas are treated and paid).
In almost every area of societal activities, business, etc. the frum businesses just don’t compare to the secular companies…
For example, I was an architectural designer and worked for a firm that included clients such as Ralph Lauren. One of our main areas of expertise was in the area of restaurant design. It is a known fact that the majority of a new restaurant’s expenditures are made in the area of interior design and architectural design. This is because good interior design accounts for up to a 40% increase in profit potential. Great food and service by themselves are never enough to guarantee success in today’s restaurant environment. In fact, professional food menu design and interior design are two things that are absolutely necessary for success. An Ohio State University study tracked new restaurant openings from 1996 to 1999 and almost 60% went out of business within their first three years.
Now, any visit to your local frum, kosher restaurant is disappointing because the community as a whole has no appreciation of good design, high-quality food or service and this is because the community historically has not been exposed to these things. Excellent service requires good wages and benefits which are lacking in many Jewish businesses I have encountered. In many restaurants I have eaten in over the last 14 years while in the NYC area, I have experienced dismal to mediocre service. I have eaten in filthy restaurants… The list goes on…
Just one glance at the employment section of the Jewish Press is enough to disappoint anyone. I was asked at one time to work for a fund-raising organization as an office manager and was offered a measly $250.00 per week and this is in NYC, the most expensive city in America! These kinds of things would never be acceptable in the non-frum world. In a word, many, many frum businesses are unprofessional… I see this ALL THE TIME.
I think these factors are some of the reasons why many people on this forum are against paying decent union wages to kosher food production workers.
Zehavi,
This quote was NOT my words, but that of CKY:
“Isn’t Bein Adam LaChaveiro or (spit three times) Tikkun Olam a part of Orthodox/Yeshivishe Judaism?”
I was RESPONDING to these words- reread my post.
Zehavi,
In addition, this is not about people’s welfare, which is a Jewish ethic- it’s about the Conservative movement, and their desire to hijack Mitzvos such as Kashrus for their own means.
I understand your feelings, as most are not as knowledgeable about the nature and history of the Conservative movement. It might be helpful to reread some of the postings, to gain a better clarity on the issues, which were certainly not about paying decent wages to hard workers.