After just speaking to a prominent Monsey Rov, I have been given the authorization to publicize the following disheartening piece of information. The owner of Shevach Meats has given a recorded statement to the Rabbonim that he has been selling Treifa CHICKENS, MEATS & TURKEY FOR YEARS. In addition, the Rabbonim have met with Mr. Shevach himself at his refrigerators.
The Rabbonim questioned him regarding three 25 pound racks of lamb which were hanging there. Sure enough, TREIF! They have USDA serial numbers on them which were tracked right back to the TREIFA slaughterhouse where they were butchered.
I was also informed of a “possibility” that there are other stores that are “involved” in this ring in various communities.
It seems that the Rabbonim knew EXACTLY what they were talking about.
The Rabbonim along with State & Government officials are continuing this investigation…………..
Besuros Tovos–YW Editor.
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54 Responses
pachad pechodim
Oy, der churban is grois!!!!!!!
Tatah in himmel: How much further is this going to go??
How many homes will have to have their hearts shattered, and throw out their dishes as well???
How many people are walking around depressed, knowing that rch’l they have eaten Treif, and fed their pour innocent children treif?
Let’s all be mispalel that this story has a happy ending (if its possible). And hope that moshiach will come soon.
I would note — not that it removes the horror of what transpired or the sense of violation, but because it can help people deal with some of their concerns — that Rav Moshe writes that someone who relies on eid echod and ends up eating something not Kosher is an oness — see Igros Moshe Orach Chaim Aleph, siman nun-gimmel. Clearly according to the Ramchal, Abarbanel, and apparently according to many Rishonim and Acharonim, there is no timtum haleiv in such a circumstance.
The title of this article should be renamed- the MAIN point should be paragraph 3 – that this is only the tip of the iceberg – and other establishments are involved…
The fact that there was an ‘admission’ should be taken in context of your previous article entitled ” Who Really Runs Shevach Meats”, where you state:
“What now might seem clear, doesn?t make it necessarily so. That includes even if there?s a confession (just ask the D.A. of Boulder, Colorado!).?”
This article does not really change anything as even if he swears that he sold treif forever, we do not believe him. Ain adom meisim atzmo rasha.
What are you getting all excited about? How exactly does his admission demonstrate the greatness of the rabbonim?
I think that YW Editor is right!
Many people were questioning the Rabbonim all along as to why he loses his Ne’emonis 10 years ago. Also they said it’s involving meat – not only chicken.
Many people mocked the Rabbonim on other websites.
Hocker, with all due respect, there was, first of all, great disparity between what different Rabbonim told their Kehillos.
And whatever anyone finds out now does not prove that something was halachically valid or invalid last week, when a different set of facts was known.
There are halachos that establish chazakah, neemonus and loss of neemonus. What an individual’s kishka tells him is not kovei’ah halachah. And yes, there are different valid shittos. And yes, new findings may change certain pesakim.
But nothing discovered now changes that the psak then was appropriate based on what was then known, and that was what the Torah expected us to do then.
I feel the need to set tne record straight and i find this news of an alleged confession hard to believe. now for the halacha aspect:
While our hearts certainly go out to our fellow yidden in Monsey, we cannot lose sight of the real focus of this tragedy. Numerous articles have been written regarding the alleged Timtum Haleiv that those who consumed the treif products are infected with. In addition, many people have proclaimed publicly that the rabbonim are not to blame, they could not have done anything better. Some go so far as to say, that were this scenario to present itself again, they would do now exactly as they had done back then. Finally, there is widespread speculation as to the proper tikkun for those who were nichshal. But who really are the ‘nichshalim’ and what should be their tikkun.
I would like to properly address these points. Firstly, contrary to popular stories circulating in the name of many gedolim such as the Divrei Chaim and others, there is NO source to say that in this situation there is any Timtum Haleiv. On the contrary, the posek and gadol hador, Rav Moshe Feinstein zatzal, wrote in a teshuva (see Igros Moshe OC Vol. 1 Teshuva 52) that there is NO Timtum Haleiv. As such, there is no reason to cause unnecessary heartache to those who consumed those foods, by scaring them with the unimaginable accumulation of T.H. Chas veshalom. The reasoning is as follows: According to the Gemara, and subsequently the shulchan aruch, the halacha is that aid echad ne’eman be’issurim. Which means that anyone with a chezkas kashrus of being an ehrliche yid (i.e. shomer shabbos, and the like) is believed to testify that a specific food is kosher and we are allowed to eat that food. Now, say the food turns out to be unkosher, the food was still consumed al pi halacha. A person who eats food which is permitted al pi halacha – because he is allowed to rely on the testimony of an aid echad – regardless of whether the food is ‘kosher’ or not – is not doing anything wrong. Following shulchan aruch cannot result in Timtum Haleiv!
Secondly, being that we have established that the consumers have done nothing wrong, inasmuch that we are not looking for a scapegoat, those truly at fault must be others. Let me make it clear, I am not here to go “rabbi-bashing” Chas veshalom. Talmidei Chachamim must be respected and revered according to the same Yoreh Deah. I only take issue here with the claim that there is no way to prevent such an incident from reoccurring. Chas veshalom that klal yisroel who spend time, money, and effort to be nizhar in kashrus should be nichshal in this again. There must be a form of prevention that can be put into action. I would like to relay a suggestion heard from a leading posek, which is the following: As mentioned above, in order to consume food according to halacha one is allowed to rely on someone who has a chezkas kashrus’s testimony. Now, say Berel opens a food store in Tuscan, AZ. Berel’s reputation in Tuscan is outstanding. All members of he community, who know him as such, are allowed to eat his foods. Moishe is visiting his uncle in Arizona and has never heard of Berel before. Is he allowed to eat at Berel’s place relying solely on the fact that Berel has the garb of a frum yid? No. Can he ask his uncle if he can eat at Berel’s place? The answer is, that Moishe’s uncle will now become the aid echad which is ne’eman on Berel’s ehrlichkeit. In order to do so, Moishe’s uncle must be sure beyond any doubt that Berel is in fact an ehrliche yid. Otherwise he cannot testify to Berel’s integrity. Realize now, that the chance of an individual knowing another community member so thoroughly that he could swear to his integrity, is nearly, if not totally, non-existent. This is one of the reasons why hashgachos are needed. The town rav, who can testify to Berel’s honesty, will post a certification to that effect. As such, the public is informed that this establishment is operated by an ehrliche yid, who is acceptable as an aid echad, and who can be relied upon according to the shulchan aruch. If unfortunately, it turns out that Berel is running a nice scam (I am not suggesting that this is the situation in Monsey) – in public he behaves as the ideal member if klal yisroel, but in truth he is an actor, a charlatan. The town rav now sees clearly the person he knew to be honest is actually quite remote of anything honest and upright. He realizes he cannot accurately recognize those who are true yirei shamayim, shomrei torah umitzvos. He realizes that he can no longer testify to _anyone’s_ integrity, for he sees he can be duped. He can no longer give this type of hashgacha, certifying the proprietor’s worthiness. He must now begin issuing hashgachos certifying the integrity of the FOOD. This can only be done by a commitment and dedication to total involvement in every aspect of Berel’s establishment so that he can be absolutely certain that the food being served is in fact kosher beyond any doubt. This type of certification would obviously entail many hours and hard work – for which he will obviously have to be compensated. This second type of hashgacha would be extremely reliable, without any chance of being fooled by unscrupulous individuals. If such certifications were to be issued in Monsey, it would surely rectify the problem, solidify the public’s reliance on hashgachos, and prevent any such reoccurrence.
Finally, as we have shown, there is no need for any tikkunim, or extreme measures of teshuva. Anyone who did in fact eat the foods in question has been shown one thing min hashamayim. The gemara says that Haskadosh Boruch Hu protects tzaddikim gemurim from takalos of ma’achalim. All we are being shown is that we are not tzaddikim gemurim and we should recognize and rectify those things we are doing wrong before we have to be shown stronger signs, Chas veshalom.
May we all be zoche to do teshuva gemura may’ahava and be zoche to a kesiva vachasima tovah u’biys goel tzedek bimhairah biyamainu.
Dear Ordained Posek,
While I agree — and actually had previously alluded to your points about — the eid echad and timtum haleiv issues, I must take exception to your characterization of how someone gains a chezkas kashrus, and the implicit (aleit denied) attack on the hashgachah.
A study of Rav Moshe’s teshuvah makes clear that the standard you are setting that for meheman lei k’bei trei, a completely different threshhold than that of eid echad.
The standard for eid echad is that the Torah — as explained by Chazal and Shulcahn Aruch — presumes that a yid who in every way appears to us to be Shomer Torah Umitzvos has a chezkas kashrus. Even moreso, when one learns through Yoreh Deai’ah, it is apparent even if there are questions about a person’s business integrity, it does not impact his neemanus in issurim.
Now, Berel in Tuscon is unkown to me, but my uncle is qualified to tell me that he’s reliable because he knows Berel’s general behavior. The same is true of teh Rav. And if the fact is that Berel is a charlatan, that does not change the fundamental halachah of eid echad. It doesn’t prove that the Rav isn’t a mavin, it proves that a crook can beat the system, and that the Torah was given to humans, not angels.
Most of the kashrus michsolim over the years were the result of inadequate investigation into the metzius before certification, in other words there was no halachaic basis to give the hechsher. In this instance, the Rav followed the halachah. And the Aibishter brought this about anyway.
This is a Pikuach Nefesh situation. The message that the support situation
has to be amended will spare many heartache, heart attacks, Machlokes,
Chillul Hashem and Treifus of all kinds.
How can the average person afford support and stay honest??????????
Ais Laasos LHashem Hefeiru Sorosecha!
There has got to be a way to get the mesage out tactfully without Lashon
Hara. It’s a clear domino effect – dire need causing greed causing Chilul
Hashem causing Onesh.
K’vod Shomayim is on hold.
Although its true that Rav Moshe said that there is no timtum, it is inaxxurate to say that there is NO source for timtum. See Meshech Chcohma Parshas Shoftim on the posuk of lo sasur that one who sells his friend meat and it turns out to be treif has to subtract the amount of the meat because it caused a machala benefesh (by an issur deoroisa), although he ate because of the eid echad who sold it to him
dag,
I didn;t say that there’s no source.. what I can tell you that almost all Rishonim and Achronim hold that there is no timtum. Th eMeshech Chochmah and the Netziv are exceptions, and the Ran, who says that there is, also says that by following the halachah that the Torah set there is greater tikkun to the neshamah than any damage that was caused. V’ein kan makom l’haarich.
art,
I was actually referring to ordainedposek who said that there is no source. You quote the meshech cochma and netziv. I assume you mean a different Meshech Chochma (and netziv) who are talking about eating treif bemakom pikuach nefesh. This meshech chochma is referring to eid echad. They are not dependent on each other. Pikuach nefesh is a mitzva but you know you are eating treif. eid echad is not a mitzva but you dont know you areeating treif and are not mechuyav to be choshesh.
I’m not talking about that at all, I’m talking about “kadlei d’chaziri.” The Ran is talking specifically about errors in psak, referring to food (Drashos, drashah 11). This is not teh venue to be maarich on the whole complex sugya.
I spoke to the head rav hamachshir of a well known and leading kashrus organization (I don’t know if I’m allowed to say the name) and he said to me on shabbos: we have some places that we have multiple mashgichim that watch absolutely every step in food preparation and they accept all the deliveries etc. IF someone wants to cheat and find a way to beat the system HE WILL FIND IT. He will figure out how to fool the mashgichim. Therefore, they must deal with reputable people. The mashgichim try as much as they can to figure out how they can be fooled and to prevent it.
We can only do the best we can. Lo nitna torah lmalachei hashorais.
Not to mention the Oruch Hashulchan taking Machalos assuros as the source for all our children at risk problems. He uses Cholov Kenanis as a source for this because of the tarfus that she injested, EVEN THOUGH CHOLOV KENANIS IS MUTTER.
I didn’t follow all the logic of ordained Posek. But I almost got the impression that if it was appropriate to rely on eid echod in this case nor is there Timtum, why not jump the logic to that the perpertrator wasn’t machshil anybody afterall…I mean “No issur gavra , no issur cheftza” (pun)
Other than the revelation of all this creating hezek pertaining to kashering. (Who is the mazik? The Perpertrator or the people who realized the fraud). I don’t know who ordained Possik is nor do I claim to be knowledgeable but there is enough mesora how klal yisroel felt about such circumstances. and that should definately be a force in our perspective
Just to add to the issue their are reiyus Le’Kan u Le’Kan if Timtum Haleiv is an issue by Neveilus at all but rather limited to Minim Asurim
The meat (and chicken) industry has become too big and commercialized to be really trusted as far as Kashrus is concerned. If possible, it would be better if people would form groups and do a small shechita under a reliable shochet who meets their expectations of trustworthiness, and do away with all the big slaughter houses altogether, like in the olden days. I know it is probably unrealistic, but it is feasible, because we ourselves get our meat that way, Boruch Hashem.
see
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=2805
for an indepth article about the sincerity of this scandel from a torah point of view
see the above link regardin Shogeg – unintentional eating of treifos.
More to follow iy”h
see the response just posted there.
Basically, you cannot compare eating something that is assur but hudchah and something that was mamash muttar l’halachah. Even in the case of chalav kenaanis, the nourishment is from food that is assur for a Yid.
I will reiterate that it is clear that many, if not almost all, Gedolei Rishonim v’acharonim hold that there is no timtum. Some do hold differently, but the basis of the beliefs of the gass and many contemorary rabbonim is not based on their going through the sugya, but on a simple looking at some sources without analysis.
Re: Timtum Halev
Art and OrdainedPosek, please do not brush aside the timtum halev issue. While it is nice to make people feel good, most people would rather correct the possible timtum halev even if it requires hard work, rather then feel good about themselves. You do not paskin shaalos from Droshos HoRan or the Abarbinel or the Ramchal (BTW, where is the source in the Ramchel are you referring to?). Halacha is determined by poiskim. It is explicit in Shach and Taz Y�?D end of YD 81 regarding a women who ate maacholos asuros even for pikuach nefesh should NOT nurse. Even though regarding pikuach nefesh it’s mamish a chiyuv and mitvah to eat maacholos asuros when necessary, and it becomes heter (see Levush O�?C 196:2 that for this reason you make a brocha on maacholos asuros eaten for pikuach nefesh. In Tanya, Igeres Hakoikesh 26 it says “heter gomur�? but this girsa is not certain), kol shekain if there was no chiyuv to eat the maacholos asuros like in our case it surely produces timtum halev. Timtum halev is not a trivial matter to be dismissed with a brush of the hand. Acher went off the derech big time because of it as the GRA sites in YD there. Even when not causing such disastrous effects it dulls ones yiras shmayim, ahavas Hashem and ahavas HaTorah. Everyone must discuss with his Rov how to remedy the damage, and not just ignore it.
The problem with getting together and doing a small shechitah is that if the cow turns out to be a tereifah, you’re out a nice chunk of change. In the present system, the big slaughterhouses sell the treifos to non-Jewish firms. Also, even if it’s not a tereifah, you can pretty much forget about glatt.
Kishke, I guess non glatt is better than treif.
Dear Isser,
I don’t know how you can POSSIBLY compare eating something assur that is hudchah for a sick person to something that the halachah allowed you to eat l’chatchilah.
No one is saying its trivial, but real horaah is based on fine distinctions. Not simple readings without thorough analysis. That’s waht every gemara is about, and that’s what the nosei keilim in Shulchan Aruch spend their efforts on. Learn through the real shailos uteshuvos — those that trance the psak not from loosely compared other teshuvos but from teh Gemara and Rishonim, and you’ll see what I mean.
Simple readings and the attendant [mis]understandings are unfortunately very common and prevalent. I’ll hold my fire there.
A further quick clarification: Whether thsi has the din of shgeg or oness, and wheteher or not there is timtum halev Hashem certainly seems to be sending each of us some sort of message.
And while this is not meant to cover up on teh terrible wriong that was done, unfortunately, he bloodthirsty passion engendered by this horror does not seem, for the most part, to be joined by concomittent horror at our own [even intentional] failures, outrage at other terrible aveiros, a sense of nach’pisha d’racheinu v’nachkora, and a move for those often shrieking the loudest to follow what the Torah says.
I readily admit that have plenty in my own life to be misakein, and I stll intend to take advantage of the power of Elul to begin to improve…
re art:
please tell us your sources in RISHONIM AND ACHRONIM, RAN (??)RAMCHAL ABARBANEL,
please read through the pages and notes at the following link
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=2805
kol tuv
yilob,
I sent YW Editor a lengthier email about this. I don’t think that a blog is the place for a lengthy Teshuvah that needs yishuv hadas, not simplistic reading.
Briefly: The Drashos haRan (11), as I mentioned previously, says that the tikkun that comes from following psakim outweighs any bad effects that may be caused by an error in psak. Abrabanel (Parshas Shoftim) responds that there are chalilah no bad effects to start with. The Ramchal in Mesillas Yesharim Perek 11 writes that its the aveirah that causes the timitum (which, by the way, is clear from the gemara in Yoma which is the source for timtum halev).
It bears noting that there are fundamental disctinctions between an error in psak, a correct psak based on an erronious assumption of metzius, and an error in action based on information that the Torah says that you can rely upon. Again, this is a blog, not a chaburah room, and I’m not going “there” here, in a venue where things can easily be misunderstood, miscontrued, and misrepresented.
“Kishke, I guess non glatt is better than treif.”
What are you trying to say, that anyone who eats from the big companies is eating treif? Don’t be idiotic.
Dear OrdainedPosek
Please clarify where reb moshe tshuva is….page and simon…cuzit is not in oc vol 1 52
It’s the end of siman 53
I’m struggling to understand something: why all the debate about timtum halev? Why the pilpul? Is there anything one can do about it at this point? At this point it is byiday shomayim. Shouldn’t we all be focusing on ways we can improve ourselves — and not only in matters relating to kashrus specifically and ben adam l’makom generally, but also ben adam l’adam? There is such an enormous outcry when a kashrus scandal such as this arises, but we seem to hear less of an outcry when news hits about “frum” people being sent to jail for fraud in business, or tax evasion, or even, chas v’shalom, domestic abuse. There are two real, root causes of this horrible mess, only one of which I think is widely recognized. First, the butcher’s lack of yiras shomayim, as we are well aware. But second, and as important, we must recognize his lack of ahavas yisroel. How did he have the heart to do this to his fellow Jews! Taniyos, as announced by our rabbanim, are of course appropriate. But how about striving to treat one another with civility, kavod and love (and I mean all Jews, even those not “frum” or otherwise exactly like us). If we all acted this way, our Rabonim would not have to declare fast days and I am sure a scandal such as this would never happen again.
Many poeple have eaten Treif unintentionally but what can we say about the way or daughets and wives have been dressing.This is certainly intentional and is also the blame of the husband/fathers & is no less Treif than Treifa meat.
SamZ wrote:
This article does not really change anything as even if he swears that he sold treif forever, we do not believe him. Ain adom meisim atzmo rasha.
———-
I’m no poisek, but I think that means that he cannot incriminate himself, but he is still believed that all that meat is treiff. Now, in this case, he was posseled by the eidus of the Rabbonim and so forth (anan sahadai), so I don’t know how ne’eman he is considered at all, even to possel his own meat. But apparently, the Rabbonim accepted this statement of his.
Where is Reb Moshe deal with the issue of “ti9mtum halev” in thast teshuva. He deals with whether or not one did something wrong or he is an “onuss”; but he does not mention one word about “timtum halev”.
Otoh, we do have a number of poskim discussing and ruling that there is an issue of timtum ghalev even when he was an “onnusss” (like in YD 81). And of course we have a chiddush that Hashem does not let tzadikim be nichshol in divrey achiloh (accordint to tossefos). Obviously they are not talknig about their violating the halochos of torah eating a dvar issur without the heter of eydim etc. And nevertheless there is an inyon that they are not nichshol in these issues. It is obvious that in addition to the avera there is another element that eating brings to the person and HKBH protects the zadikim from that ill effect.
Eli,
I suggest you re-learn the teshuvah and understand the implication of what it’s saying. It becomes abundantly apparent that timtum halev is not a concern in such a case.
Yoreh Deah 81 is NOT an annus, it’s a case where you are being docheh the issur to allow you to eat something that remains intrinsically assur. There is a very fundamental difference.
Several other mareh mekomos were posted ealier.
Re: Timtum Halev:
Art instructs me that “real horaah is based on fine distinctions. Not simple readings without thorough analysis. That’s what every gemara is about, and that’s what the nosei keilim in Shulchan Aruch spend their efforts on. Learn through the real shailos uteshuvos — those that trace the psak not from loosely compared other teshuvos but from the Gemara and Rishonim, and you’ll see what I mean.�?
My dear chaver Art, I appreciate your providing me with a “derech halimud�?. I wish that you would have taught me this when I was younger and I wouldn’t have wasted all these years with superficial analysis.
I have followed your advise and after looking into the matter in depth I have come to the conclusion that your claim that: “Apparently according to almost all Rishonim and Achronim, this only applies when a person ate something that he was halachically not allowed to eat at the time, not something that he was allowed to eat when he ate it�? ─ is completely erroneous.
In fact there is NOT ONE SINGLE rishon or archon who holds this view. The Ran, the Abarbinel, Rav Moshe, have absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand. The Ramchal you quote says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you claim he says. And your sevarah that you can not “compare eating something assur that is hudchah for a sick person to something that the halachah allowed you to eat l’chatchilah�? ─ is baseless. There is absolutely no question that in our case there is timtum halev. See further for elaboration on the above.
That is the bad news. The good news is that the seforim hakedoishim give us eitzos how one can be mesakein this timtum. The Emek Hamelech and the Ramah Mefanu quoted elsewhere on this site talk about taaneisim (91, the gematria of “maachel�?). The Tanya in Igeres HaTeshuva talks about how to fulfill these type of tanessim through tzedaka (giving 18 Polish coins per day or about $10). Other seforim talk about taking on new hidurim in Kashrus, learning hilchos kashrus be’iyun, and/or encouraging other Yiddin to keep kashrus, etc.
Let me clarify. There is absolutely no question that timtum halev is caused by every maaseh avairah as the gemarah says in Yuma. There is also no question that macholos osurus in-and-of themselves and regardless of whether there is a maaseh averah involved, also cause timtum halev. This is obvious from the halacha regarding a nursing mother where the child is obviously not committing a maaseh aveirah, and the mother too in a case of pikuach nefesh is not committing any maaseh aveirah. The sugya of hutra or decuhya has zero relevance because even if it is only dechuya, the issur itself is nidche and there is no maaseh averah, as explicit in the Levush (196:2) I quoted regarding a bracha. This is exactly what the Ramchal says in Mesilas Yeshorim (11) that in ADDITION to the timtum caused by every averah, maacholos osuros cause additional timtum helev. This is really alef beis to anyone who has elementary knowledge of Kabbolah, that maacholos asurus are vivified through the 3 “klipos hatemayos�? which cause them to be a source of serious timtum halev.
The only chakirah is if the inner essence of the maachol is actually transformed into a cheftza hamuteres through the eidus of an echod. This would be a tremendous chidush and there is no source anywhere that this is actually the case. The Abarbenel has nothing to do with this. I don’t see how anyone can distort his words to impact on the issue at hand. He is discussing the concept of “al yimin shehu semol.�? His point is that when you follow a psak din from qualified daas Torah there is no maaseh averah. He is not talking at all about the cheftza of the maachol from a ruchniyisdiker perspective. Neither is Rav Moshe addressing this issue in any shape or form.
It sounds to me that a point must be clarified.
Example: the law says that one must not break the spead limit, he did and got hurt. two thing were done wrong 1) he broke the law 2) he did something dangerous that coused him to get hurt.
when following the “law” or halocho we have guidlins, and certainly if the right hallachik autorities were followed he will not have
“broken the law” but that does not change the fact that actoins have effects, accidents hurt people even when they are not against the law.
it seem pretty clear that the people of monsey will not be held responsible for mistakenly having eaten poisen (with isurey deoraysa) but hashem should send them all a refuah (ruchni) from the poisen that was mistakenly eaten.
besurot tovot
Art,
I suggest you to learn the art of not being condescending The Art of analyzing what another points out, of putting aside one’sreconceived notions that a chakirele in the yeshiva room decides all piskey ahalochos and concepts given to us in the Torah.
I was being quite restrained given your presenting yourself as an authority to dismiss the issue of “timtum halev” without any clear backing.
Go back again to the Teshuva of IM and show me where he deals with “timtum halev”: Zilch. THe discussion was one and only: the obligation to question or the premission to believe with certainty someone else with regards to maacholos assuros. Nohing about the issue of timtum halv, the issue of disgust of the machol to the person etc.
There are many sources for that as others have pointed out to you.
After pointing out to you that Reb Msohe talks about the concept of “onnuss” you comeback: YD 81 is not an onnuss. Why are you so dismissive? Pikuahc Nefesh is not like an Oness”? After all it is the “real” oness? who says that for this inyon we nedd onuss of “being coerced by gunpoint?”?
And why is timtum halev connected to whether it is “dehuyoh” or “Hutroh”? Dechuyoh has to do with the *person*, whether he should try to find a permissive path; nothing to do with the chefets not bringing “timtum” (if that exists in Torah and Halacha). If you claim that Reb Msohe held that there is no timtum where one eats al pi heter, it should not matter at all whether it is dechuyoh or hutroh; after all he was permitted and it does not bring timtum. Go back and rethinkwhat you write with hubris and gaavoh.
I will give a mareh mokom from aGodol that does address issue head on: The Klausenberger Rebbe Zt”l:
שו”ת דברי יציב חלק �?ו”ח סימן רס
נר�?ה לומר דהנה ברמ”�? יו”ד סי’ פ”�? סעיף ז’ של�? ת�?כל המינקת �?פילו ישר�?לית דברי�? ה�?סורי�? וכן התינוק בעצמו כי כל זה מזיק לו בזקנותו, ומקורו בירושלמי ריש פ”ב דחגיגה [דף ט’ ע”ב], והוב�? בתוס’ חגיגה ט”ו ע”�? בד”ה שובו, מ�?מו של �?חר שעברה בימי הריונה לפני ע”ז והריחה מ�?ותו המין (בקרבן העדה, מתקרובת ע”ז) עיי”ש, ויש להעיר דדלמ�? ש�?ני ע”ז דחמיר�? טפי כבחולין ה’ ע”�?. וב�?מת הרי ש�? ג�? הריח הזיק, ו�?ילו במ�?כלות �?סורות כתבו ש�?כילתה דייק�? מזקת, וע”כ דחמיר�?. �?ך בתוס’ ש�? בחגיגה והריחה ו�?כלה, וכן בהג”�? פ”ב דע”ז ס”ו ש�?מו �?כלה ממין ע”ז עיי”ש.
והנה בט”ז ש�? ס”ק י”ב דזה מיירי �?פילו �?�? יש לפעמי�? היתר ל�?שה ל�?כול דבר �?יסור מפני פקוח נפש וכו’ עיי”ש, ובש”ך ס”ק כ”ה כגון �?�? הי�? חולה בענין שצריך לה�?כילה דברי�? �?סורי�? עיי”ש, ומסתימת לשונו היה �?פשר דהיינו בחש�?ב”ס �?בל במסוכנת פקו”נ הותרה ו�?ונס רחמנ�? שריה, ו�?ין ה�?כילה מזקת. ור�?יתי ב�?ורח מישור על ד”מ ה�?רוך [�?ות ב’] שדעתו דוק�? בפשיעה ושכן משמע בלשונו בתורת חט�?ת סוף כלל ס”ה שכתב להזהיר המינקת עיי”ש, ועיי”ש במנחת יעקב. �?ך בירושלמי ש�? הרי הריחה ונסתכנה �?�? ל�? היתה �?וכלת, ו�?ולי דחשבינן לה כפושעת שהיה לה להרחיק צעדיה מלכת ש�? ודו”ק.
ועיין בית ה�?וצר להגר”י ענגיל כלל כ”ד בד”ה ודע, דיש להסתפק בה�? דצדיקי�? �?ין הקב”ה מבי�? תקלה וכו’ �?�? ג�? לענין �?ונס �?י עבירת �?ונס נחשב עבירה עיי”ש, ויש לתלות הנ”ל ג”כ בזה ד�?י שייך ב�?ונס �?ין הקב”ה מבי�? תקלה י”ל ג”כ דמזיק ודו”ק. ובשו”ת פני�? מ�?ירות, והוב�? בפת”ש ריש הלכות טרפות, ב�?חד ש�?כל עוף ו�?ח”כ נמצ�? בה טרפה ד�?”צ כפרה דהוי �?ונס עיי”ש. ויש לתלות בהנ”ל, ד�?י �?ונס�? כמ�?ן דעביד דמי י”ל דצריך תשובה וסגופי�? לעקור טבעיי�? הרעי�? שנקבעו בו ונתטמט�? מוחו ולבו מ�?כילת טרפה, ועיין �?ברבנ�?ל סוף פרשת שמיני.
ובתנחומ�? בפרשת שמיני סי’ ז’, �?מר הקב”ה לישר�?ל הזהרו עצמכ�? של�? לשקץ �?ת עצמכ�? וכו’, �?”ל רבי מה �?יכפת להקב”ה שי�?כלו ישר�?ל בל�? שחיטה וכו’, ולהלן ש�? בסי’ ח’ וכי מה �?יכפת להקב”ה וכו’ כלו�? מועילו �?ו כלו�? �?תה מזיקו וכו’ עיי”ש, הרי מפורש יוצ�? ד�?ין היזק ממ�?כלות �?סורות. �?ך בפשטות י”ל דמ”ד הת�? של�? לשקץ �?ת עצמכ�? פליג ע”ז.
וש�? במד”ר פרשה י”ג ס”ז, רב �?מר ל�? נתנו המצוות לישר�?ל �?ל�? לצרף בהן וכו’, וביפ”ת ש�? [בסי’ ו’] �?�? מטבע דברי�? הללו להזיק לגוף �?ו שמזיקין לנפש עיי”ש. ולפענ”ד בזה, דמצינו במד”ר ריש בר�?שית ו�?היה �?צלו �?מון וכו’ כך היה הקב”ה מביט בתורה ובור�? �?ת העול�?, וכבר �?מרתי בבי�?ור הדברי�? ע”פ פשטות שהקב”ה בר�? ושעבד �?ת הטבע לפי מה שכתוב בתורה, ולכן כיון שנכתב בתורה של�? ל�?כול נבלות וטרפות שקצי�? ורמשי�? נתן הקב”ה בטבע�? שיטמטמו. וז”ש וכי מה �?יכפת וכו’ �?ל�? כדי לצרף, היינו דכדי לצרף �?ת הבריות במצותיו הו�? �?מר ויהי שבמצי�?ות ובטבע יזיקו ל�?וכליהן ודו”ק. ולפ”ז ב�?ונס דרחמנ�? שרייה וליכ�? �?יסור�?, י”ל שבכה”ג ל�? נטבע טבע ההיזק ו�?”צ תיקוני תשובה כי �?ינ�? עושי�? רוש�? כלל.
ובש”ס ב”ק דף מ’ ע”ב מחלוקת רב ושמו�?ל בשור ה�?צטדין �?�? כשר למזבח, וה�?חרוני�? כתבו בבי�?ור הפלוגת�? �?י �?ונס�? כמ�?ן דל�? עביד דמי�?, ועיין בבית ה�?וצר הנ”ל. ו�?”ש דרב לשיטתו דס”ל במדרש כדי לצרף, ולזה רק במקו�? ד�?יכ�? עבירה ול�? ב�?ונס �?ו בבהמה ודו”ק.
ובחולין דף צ”ד ע”�? �?סור לגנוב דעת הבריות ו�?פילו דעתו של עכו”�? וכו’ עיי”ש, ובפרישה סי’ רכ”ח �?ות ו’ משו�? דשחוטה טוב לגוף מנבלה עיי”ש, ונר�?ה כוונתו ג”כ משו�? טמטו�? הלב והדעת בגשמיות, ושייך ג�? בעכו”�? �?ף דלית ביה �?יסור�?. ומר�? דשמעתת�? ש�? הו�? שמו�?ל, ולשיטתיה �?זיל דס”ל שור ה�?צטדין פסול �?ף דהוי ב�?ונס ובבהמה ש�?ינה מצווה, וה”נ בעכו”�? כיון שכך נקבע בטבע חק נתן ול�? יעבור. �?מנ�? הרמב”�? פסק כרב דשור ה�?צטדין כשר בפ”ד מ�?יסורי מזבח ה”ג, והבי�? ג”כ הך מימר�? דשמו�?ל בפ”ב מדעות ה”ו, ודו”ק היטב כי קצרתי ויש לה�?ריך הרבה בכל זה ו�?כ”מ.
וז�?ת תורת העולה דיש מקו�? לומר דשייך טמטו�? הלב ג�? בחשיב”ס ה�?וכל דברי�? ה�?סורי�? מחמת �?ונס. וי”ל דלכן נקט הרמב”�? שקצי�? ורמשי�? לרבות�? דשני�? מש�?ר �?יסורי לענין שג�? ב�?ונס גורמי�? טמטו�? הלב והמוח, והו”�? ל�?סור ודו”ק.
I have been restrained as well, and will continue to be. I will also endeavor not to be condescending, nor to be sharp, cynincal or dismissive. On the other hand, as I wrote much earlier, I do not believe that it is possible for to adequately present what I have to say and explain it in this venue in a way that it will not be miscontrued .
I will therefore limit my remarks to the position of Rav Moshe and the Mesillas Yeshrim:
In absolute contradistinction to the shittah of the Kloizenberger Rebbe ztl, Rav Moshe held that one who does not rely on the neemanus of every Yid who to us appears to be a Shomer Torah Umitzvos [and who, obviously, is not known as an am haaretz or a kal] is in fact rejecting the neemanus that Chazal delinated and is essentially putting himself in the position of the Rav Hamachshir of everything he eats, where he basically becomes a mazid if there is a mistake.
The Kloizenberger Rebbe placed mashgichim timidiim in his kitchens with frum cooks. Rav Moshe held that this would be a chisaron. He was not concerned that there would be timtum if something went wrong, because there wouln’t be.
The Mesillas Yesharim writes:
שהעבירה מטמטמת לבו של �?ד�?, כי מסלקת ממנו הדיעה ה�?מיתית ורוח השכל שהקדוש ברוך הו�? נותן לחסידי�?, כמו ש�?מר הכתוב (משלי ב): כי ה’ יתן חכמה, והנה הו�? נש�?ר בהמיי וחומרי משוקע בגסות העול�? הזה. והמ�?כלות ה�?סורות יתירות בזה על כל ה�?יסורין, כיוון שה�? נכנסי�? בגופו של ה�?ד�? ממש ונעשי�? בשר מבשרו:
To me and many others, talmidei chachomim far greater than me, it means just what it says: Aveiros are metamtem the heart, and tarfus is even more severe. But if it’s not an aveirah, the whole issue doesnlt come into play.
So it’s a vicous cycle: you hold that the eating is an aveirah, therefore,,, therefore… Rav Moshe says that the eating is not an aveirah. The whole matter stops right there.
In many areas of halachah, there are two very distinct approaches. I never said there were no other opinions, you deny that there are any. I don’t want to be condescending, nor do I want to offend, but it is not me who’s in denial.
Art,
If you cannot explain your position in this venue, does not make your position anymore legitimate espcially when what you do write is not backed up by the writings or citiations mentioned by you.
You write with an authoritative tone that “Rav Moshe held that one who does not rely on the neemanus of every Yid who to us appears to be a Shomer Torah Umitzvos [and who, obviously, is not known as an am haaretz or a kal] is in fact rejecting the neemanus that Chazal delinated…”
Please show me where Reb Moshe makes this statement? You are making things up! bmchilas kvodcho.
You also write: “…and is essentially putting himself in the position of the Rav Hamachshir of everything he eats, where he basically becomes a mazid if there is a mistake”. Where do you get this from? You are poshut misreading what Reb Moshe wrote.
You write: “Rav Moshe held that this would be a chisaron. He was not concerned that there would be timtum if something went wrong, because there wouln’t be”. Again a authoritative statement without *any* backing. Reb Moshe does not deal with “timtum halev”; but with the permissiblity of relying or not on certain things (“neemon kbey trey”).
You quote: “The Mesillas Yesharim writes:
שהעבירה מטמטמת לבו של �?ד�?, כי מסלקת ממנו הדיעה ה�?מיתית ורוח השכל שהקדוש ברוך הו�? נותן לחסידי�?, כמו ש�?מר הכתוב (משלי ב): כי ה’ יתן חכמה, והנה הו�? נש�?ר בהמיי וחומרי משוקע בגסות העול�? הזה. והמ�?כלות ה�?סורות יתירות בזה על כל ה�?יסורין, כיוון שה�? נכנסי�? בגופו של ה�?ד�? ממש ונעשי�? בשר מבשרו:
To me and many others, talmidei chachomim far greater than me, it means just what it says: Aveiros are metamtem the heart, and tarfus is even more severe. But if it’s not an aveirah, the whole issue doesnlt come into play”.
It is unbelievable how much distortions and misreadings: He says here, that issurim in general are mttamtem and *especially* TREFFE FOODS! for they enter the person’s body and become part and parcel of the person!
So he supports whateveryone else is saying: that there is TIMTUM HALEV INTRINSIC TO A TREFE FOOD more than other averas!
“So it’s a vicous cycle: you hold that the eating is an aveirah, therefore,,, therefore…”‘
WRONG: Mesialas Yeshorim and other Gedoyley yisroel says that *TREFE FOOD* is a dovor SHOKUTZ AND MOUSS and is metamtem the person no matter what since they enter person’s being and become part of the person!
” Rav Moshe says that the eating is not an aveirah. The whole matter stops right there”.
Reb Moshe deals with whether the person was a shogeg or onness (different requirements for teshuva) but does not deal AT ALL with whether or not there is “timtum halev”.
I’m writing my final post regarding this issue– and I will bli neder no even check if there are any fuirther “responses” because the distortions have become so evident as to nearly be beyond ascribing them to innocent misundertsanding.
The words of the Meilas Yesharim are in front of you: שהעבירה מטמטמת לבו של �?ד�? — the Aveirah causes the timtum. Yet you choose to write “the isuur” as though it could be applying to a noun, i.e., the food that was halachically kosher, but turned out be to in fact treif. If you can’t understand the difference, I can;t help it.
As for Rav Moshe’s teshuvah, I don;t know what you’re looking at but he writes clearly that a person who chooses only to trust some people based on non-substiantive reasons is ignoring the din of Chazal and is therefore considered close to a meizid, unlike a person who relies on what Chazal say who is an onuss. If there would be a timtum issue, one should not rely on that chazakah because of the concerns of teh Kloizenberger rebbe. Rav Moshe insisted on relying on that Chaszakjah becuase the “threat” of timtum is non-existant.
As I said, post what you will… “tzaddikim yelichu bam u’poshim yikashlu bam.”
Art,
Really unbelivable distortions:
Messilas Yeshorim: In *addition* to “avra” he writes “maacholoss assuross”‘ “yesseyross al kol hoissurim”.
REgarding RMF: Bmchilas kvodcho you do not begin to understand what Reb Moshe writes.
I’m afraid that this is a result of timtum…
NY Motor Vehicles is informed by insurance companies whenever a person’s
auto insurance expires. Then, if Motor Vehicles doesn’t find that the
driver replaced his insurance, and the car is still registered, the driver’s
license is suspended.
Similarly, it might be smart to require meat/poultry wholesalers to inform a
central data base and the respective mashgiach whenever it suspends
shipment to a customer. This would place the kashrus establishment on
alert if the store is open, and cause them to find out who is currently
supplying the store.
Had such a system been in place, our latest kashrus outrage (and last
year’ Flatbush scandal) might have been avoided.
Hadassa,
It may have pointed out the issue sooner, but not necessarily. If he was ordering Kosher through the suppliers AND receiving treif (of the truck) from other sources at the same time, it would not help.
Perhaps if the Mashgiach would receive a copy of each order from the proprietors and a shipping document from the suppliers to reference the quantity and the type of product ordered – that would be a good start. The third document would be the outgoing shipments (direct sales to end consumers, commercial sales, etc.) to compare to orders (can’t ship more than you ordered). This might not catch in/out transactions such as where there the proprietor is acting as a distributor for commercial transactions and does not report all receipts and deliveries, therefore, a copy of all commercial orders received would need to sent to the Mashgiach also (direct from the purchasor). It would be the responsibility of the Mashgiach from the receiving organization to ensure that all orders are submitted to the Mashgiach of the sending organization. Along with this, one would need periodic (surprise) physical inventories. Basically, it is a reconciliation and attestation process.
Will this catch everything? No. If the proprietor wants to commit fraud AND is working in collusion with others – anything can happen :o(
K’Siva v’Chasima Tova
MDLEVINE
Thanks for your comments. You sound like a cpa. I’m also a cpa and
thought to discuss the auditing process, but felt that this might not be
the right forum….Of course, if the mashgiach has the keys and can
come in AT ANY TIME, NIGHTS INCLUDED, that might also help to keep
people honest.
But as you say, in the final analysis, if someone wants to cheat, he/she
will find a way! Shana Tova Umevorachas!
i take this opportunity to respond to all those comments left about my submission by those who have or haven’t apparently read the article i posted.
Yes, the correct teshuva is in that same volume in siman 53.
Granted, he does not mention anything about timtum haleiv in that teshuva. It is however well known that this was his opinion. Ask His talmidim and they will verify it.
Also, if you did see the teshuva then you saw where he states that if one invents his own “higher standard” (e.g. daf yomi magid shiur, etc.) than that of the torah, and in fact the “higher standard” he concocted is faulty he is a MAIZID!
With the regard to the Ran being misquoted here, and for that matter the entire meseches of Horiyus, if you will, are talking about a mistake in psak. Where the bais din ruled that pig is kosher _NOT_ that they ruled that this chicken is in fact a kosher chicken.
See also the Rif on the Ein Yaakov in the end of the third perek in yoma who, lived 300 years ago and stated clearly that timtum haleiv comes from the SIN.
In regard to the second meshach chochma (about lo sosur) i have yet to see it inside, but this much i ask. It is difficult to rely on the MC lehalacha for there is a very strong kasha on him.
Where the torah says that Hashem said that among the good He did to us is that He gave us “Batim Melayim Kal Tuv…” in which non-kosher meat became permissible. If this would only give us Timtum Haleiv, what is the good in that?
With regard to ‘hutra’ and ‘dechuya’ let me make it clear that while there may be grounds to diffrenciate, it is quite possible htat Reb Moshe Zatzal argued on the Meshach Chochma and ruled that there is no timtum in either case.
With regard to the Oruch Hashulchan being quoted, also i haven’t seen inside (due to lack of exact source). But assuming that he does say that it really doesn’t pose a problem. Look up the Dvar Moshe (Feinstein) where the Torah talks about Moseh Rabbeinu not nursing from non-jews where he says that all kids must be raised al taharos hakodesh.
And finally, i would like to say that all the Lashon Horah (a very serious aveirah – definitely causing timtum hapeh see sefer CC) that flew fast and furiously around – is simply that. Lashon Horah. We cannot accept derogatory comments we hear about another Jew! Unless two witnesses come to say testimony how they in fact witnessed an event. Otherwise, we’re left with “Tuvia Chata Vezigud Mangid”!
Hachoseim Lemaan Hatorah Velomdeh’ha,
-OP
When I was young there was a Rav in Williamsburg, Brooklyn by the name of Rabbi Levi Yitzchok Grunwald zt”l known as the Zehlemer Rav. He was a son of the famous Arugas Habosem, Rabbi Moshe Grunwald. There was a butcher shop in Williamsburg under his hashgacha. My parents used to buy all their meat there for many years. The following scene I have personally witnessed numerous times. The Zehlemer Rav would walk by himself on the streets and he would enter the Zehlemer butcher shop, and as I remember the elder Rav would walk briskly thru the store front area into the back of the store and check out what needs to be checked. I was never a frequent visitor to Lee Ave. but I have witnessed this scene numerous times while I was in the shop and while I happen to be on the street. I can only guess-timate that the Zehlemer Rav must of visited that butcher shop at least once a day.
Now lets forward years later, when I got married I lived in Midwood section of Flatbush for a number of years. This goes back to more than 20 years ago. There was a yid who had a take out food store under the vaad harabonim of Flatbush. He constantly would mock the hechsher of his store and he would do this in front of multiple people. The mashgiach always came only on Thursday and at the same time. After checking out things he would say to the owner in Yiddish “pock mir ein tzvie chickens” pack up for me 2 chickens. The owner would clearly imply or clearly say that when you buy by me, you are relying totally on me, the hashgacha is a joke.
There is a general problem with some hechsharim, many Rabomim rely heavily on the concept that we can come in and look around anytime we want to and this is supposed to keep establishments in line. However, many establishments know when they get regular visits and can predict quite accurately when they can get surprise visits.
In the case of Monsey, the butcher it seems felt very confident that he can bring in cases of treif chickens and meat, leave it overnight, have ample time to repackage without any worry of any surprise visits.
We need to get back to basics, follow the example of the Zehlemer Rav and take hashgache seriously.
Yerachmiel,
While that story from your youth certtainly is an interesting one, we can use that to contrast another story in the opposite extreme and use this contrast to condemn our masgichim. Lashon hora, or more likely, motzei shem ra, is a serious aveira. not something one would want on their chart the third day of this new year
OrdainedPosek
I took into consideration before writing the above, if identifying a certain vaad is Loshon hora, I don’t believe it was, and besides I indicated it was more than 20 years ago.
In terms of the general problem with some masgichin… its an ongoing problem that many know about. Its not considered motzei shem ra to publicize a problem that needs correction.
I can only direct you to the sefer chofetz chaim who says in numerous places you are wrong on both accounts.
identifying a group of people who do things wrong is worse than badmouthing an individual
secondly, if you can accomplish your goal by any means other than lashon hora and motzei shem ra there is no heter to do so. (this is assuming that anything constructive will really be accomplished by putting such information up here.
-OP
OrdainedPosek, or is it HaRav OrdainedPosek, why hide behind a screen name if you are who you say you are, identify yourself