TU: Commissioner Antonia Novello, in a pink suit and gold jewelry, met with a sea of men with long beards, black suits and hats & signed a new protocol Monday that attempts to respect both an ultra-Orthodox Jewish ritual and public health concerns.? The agreement capped a sensitive controversy that went to the heart of the separation of church and state.
“To be able to represent the religious freedom and the public health — it might not be the most perfect protocol in the world, but before this, we had nothing,” Novello said.
The protocols are aimed at preventing the spread of herpes through the practice of metzizah b’peh, in which the circumcision wound is ritually cleaned by sucking out the blood and spitting it out.
The policies stem from seven cases of neonatal herpes connected to the ritual. They included one child who suffered severe brain injury from the virus and another who died.
Last year, the city’s health commissioner, Dr. Thomas Frieden, pushed to halt the practice. Jewish religious leaders lambasted the city for trying to halt a centuries-old practice, while the city came under fire from those who accused it of pandering to a small group at the expense of public safety.
By January, prominent rabbis had sought help from a higher power — the state Department of Health.
Rabbis and Novello lauded the protocols Monday as a landmark step toward meshing religious and public health needs.
“These are our children,” said Robert Simins, an attorney and spokesman for the Orthodox community. “We would want to know if anything could hurt them.”
Jewish law concerning circumcision, culled from the book of Genesis and the Talmud, the compendium of Jewish law and tradition, requires that all boys be circumcised eight days after their birth by a mohel, a man trained in the ritual. In some Orthodox communities, the wound is quickly sucked clean.
The new state guidelines require mohels, or anyone performing metzizah b’peh, to sanitize their hands like a surgeon, removing all jewelry, cleaning their nails under running water and washing their hands for up to six minutes with antimicrobial soap or an alcohol-based hand scrub.
The person performing metzizah b’peh also must clean his mouth with a sterile alcohol wipe and, no more than five minutes before it, rinse for at least 30 seconds with a mouthwash that contains 25 percent alcohol.
The circumcised area must be covered with antibiotic ointment and sterile gauze after the procedure.
In addition to the rabbinical policies, the state Health Department also added neonatal herpes to the list of diseases health care workers are required to report to state officials.
In adults, herpes is common — almost 80 percent carry the oral form of the disease, according to the state Health Department. It is far less common, and potentially more dangerous, in children and babies.
If a baby who underwent metzizah b’peh does contract herpes, the mohel, the infant’s parents and health care workers will be tested. If the mohel has the same viral strain as the baby, the mohel will be barred from conducting any future circumcisions.
The detailed policy was hammered out over monthly meetings on Sunday nights out of respect for the Jewish Sabbath, with rabbis traveling between Albany and New York City, and occasionally phoning from Israel. Novello said she read the Talmud and the writings of the rabbi and philosopher Maimonides. The Jewish leaders said they read more scientific journals then they could count.
Novello said she treated the rabbis with the same respect she would treat Catholic cardinals. The rabbis, in turn, seemed charmed and entertained by the woman who called them “my rabbis” and greeted them with a hearty Hebrew “Shalom.”
Novello suggested each rabbi sign the protocol, even those who didn’t attend the meetings, so they could tell their congregations that they signed on like everyone else.
Rabbi David Niederman, the executive director of the United Jewish Organizations of Williamsburg, Brooklyn, and a member of the Central Rabbinical Congress of the USA and Canada, said the issue wasn’t about a lack of understanding, but about “not appreciating. People, even those who aren’t Jewish, should appreciate the fact that this is a religion that’s been around for thousands of years.”
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20 Responses
Osim Maasei Zimri Um’vakshim sechar k’Pinchas…. Instead of a victory for milah, this has brought the goverment into governing the practice.
The Gedolei Yisroel were very concerned about this happening, and that is why the Agudah took the approach they did.
Rabbis O and Z… and your friends in Satmar.. what did you gain with your daas baalei battim?
Had our community INFORMALLY agreed to what the state has now made a formal rule — “If a baby who underwent metzizah b�peh does contract herpes, the mohel, the infant�s parents and health care workers will be tested. If the mohel has the same viral strain as the baby, the mohel will be barred from conducting any future circumcisions” — the city would have done nothing more.
It appears that the Agudah was working on an even less invasive informal agreement. But that wasn’t good.
So Metzitzah got into the media. Into the medical journals. Onto the internet. On posters on street corners.
We were misgoreh ba’umos in our malchus shel chessed (funny how this rule doesn’t seem to apply when Satmar doesn�t want it to).
And — thanks to your self-aggrandizing kleinkeppildikeit — we now have government formally involved in regulating milah. We now have an agreement that not completely bars certain mohalim from doing brissin.
There is no vidication of metzitzah in this agreement — the Rabbis signed off on an indictment of the practice!
So what do you anti-Torah kano’im have to say now????
Maybe the end of the story has the motivations right: “It’s all about respect.”
What is your question mark (?) in the titile of this article?
An agreement that was worked on by Gedolei Rabbonim including Rav Feivel Cohen and Rav Hillel David is being denegrated by those who don’t know the facts.
(Rav F Cohen is the first signatory to this Agrrement, for those who have actualy read it)
He was afraid that the Agudah would play their “sour grapes”game so the protocol was sent to Harav Elyashiv. Rav Elyashiv had it translated into Hebrew and then full-hearted agreed to it, in writing.
It is Amei Haaretz who have long attacked Metzitza B’peh are the only ones aginst this protocal.
ART
It is obvious that the NYC health commissioner Dr Frieden is convinced that the practice of Metzizah Bpeh is dangerous, therefore he is driving to have the practice discontinued. True at the moment he does not regulate its practice, but, as he himself states in his public documents, he will do all in his power to have the practice stopped. He embarked on an education campaign to explain to young mothers the inherent danger in Metzizah Bpeh, and hoping, in his words, that this will be sufficient to put a halt to this practice.
However, Dr Novello, the NY State health commissioner, sees no inherent danger in Metzizah Bpeh, and is absolutely not looking to have anyone stop practicing Metzizah Bpeh. Rather, she has stated in her public statements that in her opinion, and the experts she consulted, Metzizah Bpeh is NOT an inherently dangerous procedure, and those that have this religous practice may freely continue to do so.
Perhaps, Art, if you will read the statements issued by New York City dept of health, its commissioner, his associates, and, compare them to the statements issued by NY State dept of health, its commissioner, and associates, you will also see the great benefits for Klal Yisroel in the signing of this landmark agreement.
first comment was from Rabbi perlow and Rabbi zweibel Or a agudah spokesman
thanks in the name of klal yisroel To Rabbi O and Rabbi z
and ofcourse yossi R.
thanks to the satmer askonim and rabbonim
when freiden/tendler/aguda get out of office the city wil sighn a simmilar agreement
I am neither Rabbi Perlow, Mr. Zwiebel, nor a spokesman for the Agudah.
You can call me whatever names you want. The facts stand on their own merits.
1. This places milah under governmnet control. Gedolei Yisrael throughout the years have always been opposed to such arrangements.
2. The agreement clearly concedes that metzitzah can cause herpes in children. This has been the maginot line that Rav Cohen has always refused to cross. In fact, the “problem” with the Agudah position was that it tacitly implied that metzitzah may cause herpes. This agreement is far more damning of the practice.
3. The agreement, as presented in the media, states that if the mohel has the same strain of herpes as teh infant, he is barred from milah. That means that the rest of the testing in that paragraph is mere kesus einayim to allow the signators to try save face. Becuase even if everyone in the baby’s family and all the healthcare workers have that strain too, the mohel has it, so he’s barred. And note that it bars teh mohel from milah, not just metzitzah.
It’s a bad agreement that was brought about by a misguided public policy controlled by self-serving askoonim, schvitzers, machers, oi-oi-yeshivishe chevra, and wannabe players selling trusting rabbanim a bill of goods.
The breakthrough is that the state health commissioner concluded that metzitzah is not harmful and there is no proof that metzitzah causes harpies.
In addition, in a case were an infant gets harpies chas vesholem all people around the infant have to be tested and not only the mohal and if someone else is found to have harpies, the fault goes away from the mohal
This is different then the city that concluded that there is no debut that metzitzah causes harpies.
In addition, the city wanted the mohal only to be tested.
The precautions that the mohal has to take is taken by every mohal anyway even before the agreement.
Dear myhumbleopinion,
You wrote: “In addition, in a case were an infant gets harpies chas vesholem all people around the infant have to be tested and not only the mohal and if someone else is found to have harpies, the fault goes away from the mohal.”
Now let’s read the article again: “If a baby who underwent metzizah b�peh does contract herpes, the mohel, the infant�s parents and health care workers will be tested. If the mohel has the same viral strain as the baby, the mohel will be barred from conducting any future circumcisions.
Let me offer you the Rashi: The Rabbanim have now conceded that mohelim may be transmitting herpes. They have also agreed that even if everyone else around the kid has that strain of herpes as well, the state still bars the mohel from milah.
So:
(a) despite all the claims until now, they signed that metzitzah is potentially threatening to children.
(b) In direct contradiction to your assertion the assumption is that it came from the mohel — why else you bar him?
(c) The State has now been invited to bar mohelim from milah
(d) They are barring them from circumcising. Read: even if someone else will be motzeitz.
In my humble opinion, the article does not support much of what you say it does.
Dear anonymous the article is not the statement from the commissioner and it shouldn�t be learned with rashi not even as gemoro without rashi.
What does it mean that the others should be tested, if when you find the mohal has anti-badis he is barred anyway why drew blood in vain?
Secondly, how is agreeing to a hypothetical conceding a fact?
Thirdly, not only didn�t the rabanim concede and sign that metzitzah is a threat, the commissioner herself concluded that it�s not a treat and therefore allowed the practice to go on.
And about baring them from doing milah, remember the article is not a rambam there is no reason to bar from doing milah because the mouth can transmit a infection he probebly means metzitzah
dear humble:
sorry, but you’ve basically chosen to accept the half of the deal you’re happy wth and chosing to ignore the rest.
the agreement is explained, this isn’t a chaburah, it’s fact. you’re sevoros won’t change that.
and if everyone feels that metzitzah can’t trasmit herpes (which is what you say), that should be the whole gesheft, and the mohel shouldn’t even need testing.
don’t get me wrong, i’m glad that metzitzah b’feh is being protected, i’m upset that after attacking others who were prepared to concede much less, they’ve now given away much more — all while declaring victory, claiming to be heroes, and asserting that they’ve protected the person they not only abandoned but they’ve figuratively been “moser l’hariga” (while self-righteously accusing others of abandoning him!)
YW editor,
Instead of changing just the question mark to an exclamation points, you should have changed “vicory” to “forfiet” or “surrender.”
Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder. Victory is measured by results. There are none to be proud of here.
“i�m upset that after attacking others who were prepared to concede much less, they�ve now given away much more � all while declaring victory, claiming to be heroes”
WHAT? “They” are claiming to be “Hero’s?
Let me inform you that the entire protocall that was agreed on was shown to Maran Hagoen R’ Eliyashiv Shlita (the UNDISPUTED Posek Hador) and he signed off on it. So to call him a “Hero” is disgusting.
Also, kindly get your facts together. All the Agudah did in this entire fiasco was destruction. Are you aware the R’Feivel Cohen Shlita has “resigned” as a member of the “Nesios” because of this? Are you aware that the “Agudah” has said things (even in the last two weeks) in the names of members of the “Moetzes” that they in fact never said???!!!
Do me a favor. They need to cut it out with the LIES.
The only thing that they are good for is to make conventions and scratch their heads while the Novaminsker moans and groans about total nonsense – and even the Convention should be stopped.
The NERVE of them to charge a retarted amount of money to attend, yet they make all kind of stupid TAKANOS for weddings…which they ALL IGNORE anyways.
PUUUULEEEZ!!
“Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder. Victory is measured by results. There are none to be proud of here. ”
This IS victory.
The Agudah is out there looking for blood now!
What a bunch of losers!
They can’t attack R’ Feivel Cohen so they are going after SATMAR!!
HAHAHAHA!! Just wait until they rub Satmar the wrong way….They will regret they ever got involved in this in the first place.
YW Editor.
I agree with YW Editor.
I know the facts and I know that this was a MAJOR slap in the face to the Agudah who are devastated.
Nebach……
What a total joke they are.
Anyways, Nice website!
First — I am not a member of the Agudah’s staff, their spokesman, representative, agent, shliach, designee, or anything else [though I am a member of teh organiztion]. Therefore, I can’t speak for any klep they get or who they want to knock, and nothing I wrote should or could be implied to have their backing, blessing, or anything else.
I do not have any knowledge about Rav Elyashiv’s involvement — or lack thereof — in this particular agreement.
I do know that until now he was QUOTED as categorically denying the possibilty of herpes being transmitted by metzitzah and as absolutely rallying around defending the right of the mohel in question to perform metzitzah.
I also know, from very reliable sources, that he specifically said that he did never meant that a mohel who may have given a child herpes should be allowed to continue to do metzitzah. Which means that he also never said that metzitzah cannot transmit herpes.
I also know that he, like almost every godol over the past 100+ years has fought to keep goverment involvement and control — even to approve — out of and away from our shemiras hamitzvos.
Futhermore, I — and you, I imagine — have no idea what he was asked and whether (or how) he was presented with the other side. Unless you were there, of course.
As for Rav Feivel’s resignation from the Nesi’us, I’d heard only that he had threatened to do so. It bears noting that even if he did resign, there a quite a few competent and qualified anoshim gedolim v’chashuvim he left behind there, not to mention the Moetzes.
Of course, if no one but Rav Feivel is anyone to you, there’s nothing further to discuss.
Oh, but of course, there are your friendly Gedolei Hador from Monsey, the only true daas Torah in America of course, Rabbis Z and O. I think its a shaas hakosher for the two of them to open a Yeshiva so all those learning by the Rabbeim she’einam hagunim who serve on the Moetzes and Nesius will have true Rabbeim to learn from.
I’ll bli neder wait for the chips to land before posting again, but I would not celebrate so quickly….
Why attack the Aguda?
The Aguda has not yet issued a statement regarding this agreement.
Perhaps (probably so) the Aguda and its Rabbonim are in total agreement with the accomplishments of this protocol. They too wish to protect Metzizah Bpeh.
It is quite likely that the Agudah will in the very near future issue a positive statement regarding this agreement and protocol.
It is unfair to knock them at ths point.
Aguda is IRELAVENT a long time now.
Rabbi Sherer is turning in his grave
Ever since Moran Rav Elya Shilita got sick aguda under the leadership of the ROSH has becoming more and more obsolete . they are heading in the direction of the agudath harabonim who were active in the 50s and 40s total irelavence
ART,
Did you read todays Hamodia……?
Hagaon Harav Aharon Schachter, Harav Feivel Cohn, and others met in the home of Harav Hillel David to formulate this agreement.
How dare you belittle and denegrate their Daas Torah and mesiras nefesh for Torah and Mesorah.
It sure seems that you have a case of sour grapes or envy or worse a very bad case of “Malivim B’Malachei El’okim”
Dear Art,
Instead of making accusations based on newspaper reports, why not look at the protocols. A victory indeed!
Even CD Zweibel had to admit that this is a great accomplishment. Although he is still stinging that he was not invited to Albany, at least he has the courage to admit when he sees the truth.
Thank you, George for giving us Rabbi CD Zwiebel’s opinion on this protocol.
From the begining, I was sure that the Agudah is totally in agreement with the details of the protocols.
Actually, the Hamodia, ( voice of Agudas Israel of America) in its weekend edition, wrote a well balanced lenghty article on the signing and reported on the broad range of Rabbonim and Askonim who worked on this protocol agreement. Ranging from harav Aharon Schechter R”Y Chaim Berlin, Harav Feivel Cohen, Harav Hillel David , both renowned Poskim and Marbitzei Torah, Harav Blum of Kashau, the Hisachdus Harabonim and many more. It is obviously and truly a work of the great Torah personalities living here in the USA, and as such completely based on pure unadulterated Daas Torah.
Please let us all rejoice and savour this great moment in Jewish Communal accomplishments.
KLMN-
>”Actually, the Hamodia, ( voice of Agudas Israel of America) in its weekend edition, wrote a well balanced lenghty article on the signing and reported”
Did you READ the article!!! Not a word about the MBP. It talks about Milah. Was milah under attack? Oh Agudah I thought it was all ok. Why not call the article by its real name PROTECTING MBP!!!! Are you scared you are going to offend someone? Or will it be kind of admiting defeat.
What happend to those crazy chasisdim that Yonason Rosenblum said have no foresight? Can we expect an apology? Or will it be kind of admiting defeat.