The following is a response to the letter by Aish posted on YWN this past Friday titled “An open letter to the Beit Shemesh Spitter“:
Dear Aish,
Chazal teach us “Divrei Chachamim D’nachas Nishma”. The Ramban in his Igeres HaRamban states, “תתנהג תמיד לדבר כל דבריך בנחת לכל אדם ובכל עת ובזה תנצל מן הכעס שהיא מדה רעה להחטיא בני אדם”
In order to know the proper way to deal with people whose conduct is less than exemplary (to say the least), we need to delve into their thought process to see where they err in order to try to help them to do Teshuvah.
What is it that these sinners are demanding? They are demanding that people live and act with tzniyus. Putting aside whether they really believe in tzniyus or whether it is just a front to hide behind their own lack of tzniyus pinimi is irrelevant. What is important is whether their cause is legitimate. I think we can all agree that tzniyus is of up-most importance for the purity and holiness of our people. Unfortunately, I also believe that we all will agree that Klal Yisrael is suffering an attack on this front and breaches in these halachas have sadly been made.
This, unfortunately, has place a tremendous strain on the kedushas of Klal Yisrael. Among those who are concerned about this are people who become seized by wrath towards those that falter. In their self righteous indignation they lash out at those who they appose, forgetting the Torah that they so “righteously” are trying to defend. They forget Chazal’s statements, “הכעס היא מידה רעה להחטיא בני אדם” and “כל הכעס כל מיני גיהנם שולטים בו”. And so they sin. They sin such horrible sins as spitting on another human being. They sin with their mouths and speech using horribly derogatory statements that are untrue, uncalled for, and shameful. Words that should NEVER come out of a Yids mouth. And yet it did and it does. And Why? Because they have never learnt to examine their own actions and therefore do not even recognize the ANGER and HATE that should never exist within their souls. They never see the Anger that allows “ALL types of Gehinom to control them”. So they sin and sin and sin, never once looking back and realizing that they are spiraling down into an Abyss.
When I started to read your Open Letter I was taken aback by the blatant Anger in your voice. The Hatred that was hiding behind a beautiful story of Ahavas Yisrael. Even the ending came with hostility (Quote: I DARE YOU!).
As far as whose side I’m on, of course I’m on your side. But I ask you, aren’t you falling prey to the same “cancer” that those sinners in Beit Shemesh are falling prey to? Aren’t you also full of Anger, Hatred, and Hostility right now. What difference does it make what side of the fence you are on? כעס is a stumbling block no matter who you are and no matter what your reason is. Did not Moshe Rabbanu have good reason to be angry with Klal Yisrael? Didn’t he, non-the-less, get punished and not allowed to enter Eretz Yisrael because of the one time infraction? Count how many times Moshe Rabanu held back from anger and yet it was not enough to outweigh the one time infraction. He was punished. If so, shouldn’t we be fearful from כעס. We can’t make excuses for ourselves just because our דעת is the correct one. Chazal say, “הוכח תוכיח את עמיתך ולא תישא עליו חטא”. It is not enough to give tochacha where needed, we must do it the right way. As talmidim of Rav Noach, z”l you should be asking yourself, “How would my Rebbe, Rav Noach, have responded? What would he have written? How would have written? etc…”
Remember: דברי חכמים בנחת נשמה
יברכך ה’ וישמרך
– Softwords
NOTE: The views expressed here are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent or reflect the views of YWN.
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31 Responses
“They are demanding that people live and act with tzniyus” No they are not. They are demanding that others conform with their own concepts of tzniyus. They refuse to recognize that other people have other poskim whom they follow.
The cause of this extremism is because these people do not recognize that others have equally valid halachic norms.
This is not limited to the kanoyum of Meah Shearim. Many people disparage those that don’t conform to their norms of “tzniyus” and “hashkafah”. It is the rhetoric of calling such people “prutzos” and “kalim who lack yiras shomayim” that creates this environment of hatred.
No one on this world is G-d (G-d is above us all), and certainly no one can speak for G-d, but is anyone sane trying to compare the gravity of spitting on an innocent eight year old girl to the use of the words “How dare you” or “I dare you” as a response to the above mentioned shocking activity?
Just comical.
Abi geredt.
wonderful point, well said and written, it was my first reaction when reading the aish open letter
as for the subject itself: as a member in the ultra-chareidi community, i ask myself isn’t yhis separate sitting on the bus the opinion of all our gedolim, as i see the busses in bnei beark, yerushulayim, betar, moadiyin… so this is the charedi view in the matter, so how come so many letters and articles bashing the piont itself not only bashing the extrimest wild actions.
It has to be cler to all of us that the seperation of gender is part of our religous beleafs, and we worked on this tens of years to make the seperation in public places as on busses, gatherings, simchos… as seen in current day in every yeshivish, chasidish… gathering, of course we can’t force it upon others, but its something we have and should work on, to presuade the crowd in our neighborhoods to follow.
Its just the violent behaivior of some yechudim that we are against and condem, if you would be an insider here in beis shemesh you would see the truth in this all most charedim including the konuim are against the violence, but are for the idea of sepperating the gender.
we pray for speedy unity in lovingness between all sects of jews!
I think these open letters etc. are missing the point of what is actually occurring. Of course spitting, anger, violence is wrong and not the Torah of resolving disputes. However, it is an affront, insensitive and a hutzpah to place a daati l’umi school in the middle of a chareidi community. Stories from Gedolim are not comparable to a mosad with very different standards of tzniyus functioning continuously in the heart of their community. I don’t think Rav Finkel would find it acceptable to have such a school located across the street from the Mir.
I don’t know all the facts, but I thought that their group tried first for many months to negotiate the matter and to resolve it in a civilized way. This is what needs to be addressed. All the actions, hype, distortions, “proofs from Gedolim” will not solve the real problem.
v’sain b’libeinu bina l’haskil
p.s. I am not a chareidi but I respect them as I also respect all Yidin
Um here we go again with – “They refuse to recognize that other people have other poskim whom they follow.”
If you want to debate if we can, in todays Israel, enforce halacha in public ok – but there are no poskim who sanction the standards of dress common in certain communities. not one. none.
I saw neither anger nor hate in the Aish post.
Rather, I saw outrage and righteous fury directed at the individual who assaulted a young schoolgirl in a vile and disgusting manner.
I agree 100% with the Aish letter writer and absolutely share his revulsion towards this sickening incident.
I agree with crazykanoiy. This is a frum little girl who wears long sleeves and long skirts (please G-d may she continue to do so after this horrible experience), so softword’s open letter is based on the same mistaken premise of the spitter: that one’s own chumrahs must be followed by others or the “others” are somehow less observant, if not blatant sinners. In his “holy” effort to “demand” his own idea of, as opposed to halachic “tzniyus”, did the spitter forget what happened when Chava added a chumrah and said it as fact?! Certainly he forgot the mitzvah Vahavta Lreayechoh Camochah! Certainly he forgot that the Mikdash was destroyed because of Sinas Chimam! When souls are at stake, as in turning off even a single neshama (or millions given the media attention to this boosha)from our beautiful Torah life, softwords aren’t enough.
#1: Agreed. This whole problem wouldn’t exist if Israeli charedim learned in school that there are other Torah hashkafos that are different, but also acceptable ways to serve Hashem.
Aish is out to m’karev non religious people and say things that they find acceptable even if it means ‘bending’ the truth. They prefer if the frum people ignore them and their declarations about frumkite that are a bit ‘enhanced’ so that they can bring more souls into Judaism.
Little Naama of Orot school looks like every Bais Yaakov girl in New York….so we are all ready to be spat and yelled upon by those who have determined the righteousness of PURE TZINUUS.
Sorry, but there is NO excuse for the disgusting chilul HaShem that these fake “chareidim” have committed and continue to commit in front of the eyes of the whole world.
Kudos to Aish for a well written article.
The ONLY problem with it, is that those who need to see it never will.
Sleeveless shirts and the other ways those ladies are dressed, does not conform to anybody’s standard in halacha.
This is a clear violation of halacha. (You can take out a Shulchan Aruch/Mishna B’rurah and look it up yourself!) They are trying to “modernize” the frum neighborhoods by imposing their ways on the frum people who have been living b’kedusha ub’tahar all these years.
They are causing the Shechina to leave Eretz Yisroel “ושב מאחריך” . I do not know if their approach is correct or not, but they definitely have reaon to be upset!!
#1 – crazykanoiy
While I agree with your statements, note that my focus was not on expounding or justifying their views, but rather focusing on the way the author of An Open Letter attacked them.
True, we are in strong disagreement with these kanoyim, but on one point we do agree. We both agree that the concept of Tzniyus is very real and important to us. However, as you said, we disagree what falls under that גדר. Regardless, my point was that we are no better than they if we also act with the same distasteful hostility as they.
May we be zochei to Biyas HaMoshiach who will help us to truly devote ourselves to Hashem with Achdus. May we be zochei to abolish all sinas chinum.
a brilliant letter!! I was happy to see someone looking at the picture with the right glasses and not lossing perspective.
YOU SAID: “What is important is whether their cause is legitimate”
FAIL!
NO WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS HOW THEY ADVOCATE FOR THEIR CAUSE.
everyone is entitled to their opinion, its when you use violence and coercion and plain stupidity where people get upset.
And lets not forget the forest here. This sub-human spitter (humans have basic decency standards and respect for one another) was just the straw that broke the proverbial camel’s back– this anti-social behavior has been going on in RBS for who knows how long and in the rest of the country for even longer… to turn this into a response to the actions of single individual only serves to minimize all the damage that has been caused by this group!
#15 Y_dont_U_research_b4_speaking
Quote: “NO WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS HOW THEY ADVOCATE FOR THEIR CAUSE.”
Response: Point well taken.
Quote: “YOU SAID: “What is important is whether their cause is legitimate””
Response: You’re taking this quote at of context and making it sound as if that was my main point. In fact, your statement “WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS HOW THEY ADVOCATE FOR THEIR CAUSE” was my main point!
I’m glad we agree! 🙂
#7 – Who’s article did you read? Certainly not mine! I NEVER stated anything of the like about following MY or anybody else’s chumros, nor did I anywhere disparage this poor little girl or anyone in the Dati-Leumi community. In fact, my first statement to my family after seeing the original video was, “What’s wrong with the way she’s dressed? She may not be dressed the way we dress, but she’s conforming to Halacha, Baruch Hashem!” So I now advise you to please reread my article, but this time realizing what side of the fence I’m on.
Let’s get this straight once and for all. The school in question IS NOT IN A CHAREDI neighborhood. If anything the Charedi neighborhood is in a Dati Leumi neighborhood – which has been around for about 15 years before the Charedi neighborhood came along.
Furthermore, let’s say for a second that the school is in a Charedi neighborhood – then the actions are OK??? Spit away??
In my humble opinion – the reason we have gotten to this poor state of Chillul Hashem and Sineah – is exactly because of thoughts like those of #4 (how ironic – Ahavat Yisrael). It is time to call a spade a spade (as done by Aish) – to speak out against the wackos and not whitewash what has been done. Had more RBS and BS Rabanim come out about this earlier – this would have ended differently.
Hashem have mercy on us!
Just curious why softword does not publish in his own name?
You missed the point of the Aish letter. If you understood why Aish was writing that letter, what they were trying to accomplish, and who their main target audience was, you might be less harsh in your soft-spoken words.
As a side point, you lose credibility when you misquote a quote to further your needs. Writing “(Quote: I DARE YOU!)” is not the same as what they really wrote, “I dare you.” – No capitalization and no exclamation point.
In addition, your message might be correct if this was actually a letter written to the spitter.
However, it is not.
It is a letter to a certain mass audience who have inaccurate ideas thanks to the media, and this form of writing is a very powerful (and proper) way of healing the damage done to the Torah world.
This has nothing to do with tznius .It is only about power and control.
can someone please tell the ball teshuva who wrote this article that the line in חז”ל is דברי חכמים בנחת נשמעים not נשמה which means soul…
Just to be very clear
The I dare you was in relation to the previous line which said-
Abandon your hate and choose the Torah’s path of warmth and understanding.
That is the dare. I don’t see anything hateful about that.
#22 katzleib – thanks for the correction. 🙂
#13: I agree with your point that the fiery rhetoric must be turned down. There is however a vast difference betwen physicaly or verbaly attacking a persons character as the kanoyum do and using harsh words to engage ones adversaries in debate.
Furthermore I strongly believe that your premise that this is a fight over legitamite “tznius” is flawed.
#4,#5,and #12: There are many respectable poskim who feel there is no need for segregated busses.
Rav Chaim Shmulevitz, Rav Nachum Partzovitz and other Roshei Yeshivas of the Mir lived with therir families in the MIr building. The same corridors and hallways of the Yeshiva were used by their daughters and by the bochrim.
The Roshei Yeshiva of Telshe sat with their famalies and daughters at the head of the Yeshiva’s seudas shabbos every shabbos. Their was no Mechitza.
When Rav Shneur was Rosh Yeshiva in Lakewood the ladies who picked up their husbands from Yeshiva were considerd true aishes chayil that were moser nefesh for their husbands limud hatorah. Today when a lady takes time from her busy schedule to drop off or pick her husband she is called a prutzah.
Just to clarify for those of you who pointed out that the “I dare you” statement was directed toward the previous line of “Abandon your hate and together let’s choose the Torah’s path of warmth and understanding.”
The point I was trying to bring out is that hostility could be felt throughout the whole article from the first words (How dare you?) to the last (I dare you.). I only meant to say that the last words (I dare you) weren’t necessary and only express further hostility. It would have sufficed to send with the statement “Abandon your hate and together let’s choose the Torah’s path of warmth and understanding.”
As far as the CAPS (see #19), point well taken. I’ll try to be more careful in the future.
Would you react like that if the how dare you article was written in response to the killer of Lieby Kletzky A”H or Harav Elazar Abuchtzeira ZT”L? These spitters on innocent eight year old girls are of the same ilk as those murderers and left to their own devices may well end up chas v’sholom following in their ways. The outcry has to be loud, clear and unanimous from anyone and everyone who considers themselves a Shomrie Torah U’Mitvos. Yes! How dare you create such a public and despicable Chillul Hashem in the name of what you consider to be tznius. Stop it now or we, the charedi tzibbur, will do all in power to stop you.
#16: softwords, I have read your words and here they are: “breaches” and “those that falter”… but in your response to me you say that you noted that the little girl’s dress conformed to halacha. So what are the breaches and who faltered here? It seems to me that its the subjective view of those who have adopted a more stringent dress code than is required by halacha that those who haven’t done so have “faltered” and made “breaches”, hence my appropriate use of the word chumrahs and references to the dangers their adoption brings.
#28 darcheinoam – I happen to have noticed your comment here. I don’t know if you’ll see this reply, but I figured in case you do here it is.
I wrote: “Unfortunately, I also believe that we all will agree that Klal Yisrael is suffering an attack on this front and breaches in these halachas have sadly been made…Among those who are concerned about this are people who become seized by wrath towards those that falter.”
It APPEARS to me that you interpreted my words as follows:
“Unfortunately, I also believe that we all will agree that Klal Yisrael is suffering an attack on this front (BY THE DATI LEUMI) and breaches in these halachas have sadly been made (BY THE DATI LEUMI)…Among those who are concerned about this are people who become seized by wrath towards those that falter (I.E. THE DATI LEUMI).”
If I have assessed your words correctly, then note that NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH! I never said or implied anything towards any particular group. Furthermore, truth be told, when writing those lines I actually was thinking of those within the Black Hat Chareidim community that are in violation of the halacha.
To answer your question “So what are the breaches and who faltered here?”:
Breaches – ex. women wearing skirts above the knees (see טור/שולחן ערוך או”ח סי’ עה)
Those that Falter – women that are misinformed and think that the minimum guidelines are chumras and not halacha and/or hear misquotes of halacha (ex. those that think that Rav Moshe, z”l stated that a woman can have a full tefach of her hair showing from the beginning of her hairline and back, when he clearly states otherwise.)
These women are doing a great injustice to themselves and to Klal Yisrael. However, we must approach them with companion and understanding. Sometimes, and probably more often than not, that means patiently keeping silent waiting for them to reach a madrega that they are ready to take that step towards being more righteous. (and I don’t mean Black Black Black which incidental I’m pretty much against)
BTW – I spent a significant time researching these halachas in depth last year and yes, I specifically was looking for the most lenient opinions. You are mistaken if you think that I’m a machmir. On the contrary, I’m noted to be a maiklin.
Agreed. Thank you for taking the time to respond and clarify. One last point: In #16 you said “She may not be dressed the way we dress but she’s conforming to halacha BH”. But who is “WE”? If she’s conforming to halacha, then she IS dressing the way “we” dress, and WE and SHE are BH the same: halachic Jews! Why the differentiation?
To #29: it is exactly the Dati leumi that caused all this. They put loopholes and kulos into their tzniyus just like they do with Shabbos, shmitta etc. Then they go to archaos against Torah. They do this with permission from “rabbis” so they cannot claim to be tinok nishba. Spitting at the DL girl wasn’t nice but others tried to correct the DLs with darke noam and it didn’t work.