Leading Gedolim in Eretz Yisroel are calling on the Charedi public not to volunteer in Magen David Adom, stating that serving in the rescue organization leads to serious religious prohibitions and leads to spiritual danger. It was signed by Hagon Rav Elyashiv, Hagon Rav Nissim Karelitz, Hagon Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Hagon Rav Aharon Leib Shteinman, the Sanz and Erlau Rebbes and others.
In the call, directed to “dear volunteers engaged in saving lives in the Holy Land,” it says that volunteers must favor Charedi rescue services operating across the country and must not volunteer with MDA.
“We hereby inform you that it is forbidden to volunteer in the Magen David Adom organization even for the purpose of saving lives,” the letter says, adding that it was only permitted to volunteer “in an organization which conducts everything according to the way of Torah and Halacha.”
“Volunteering not through these organizations may, God forbid, lead to serious prohibitions – both in terms of general conduct and spiritual influence, and in terms of Torah prohibitions and particularly Hilchos Shabbos.”
Talking to Ynet, sources involved in the ad pointed to difficult modesty problems the organization’s Charedi activists are forced to Work with. “MDA is the only national organization in the State which does not have a rabbi,” one of them said.
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31 Responses
i find it incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to believe that any rabbi would intentionally sign such a document. not only is it completely permissible to touch the opposite gender in life threatening situations, but MDA has been around for many years. why all of a sudden is this a problem? did women only suddenly start getting sick? and what about all the jewish doctors and nurses who work in hospitals named after catholic saints in america? they arent even saving jewish lives many times, and somehow no one seemed to find their proffession problematic. dont believe something until you hear it from the rov himself.
Just watch. This is the spring board for an new frum emergency service that will spawn a thousand new schnorrers in shul. It’s always about the money.
cant figure this out, but is is shocking that they would forbis someone from saving a life….
Baruch SheKivanti.
For several years, I have been giving Tzedaka to Hatzala and ZAKA, rather than MDA. Based on the above-referenced Psak of the Gedolei HaDor SHLIT”A, I urge Acheinu VeAchyoseinu Bnei UVnos Yisrael to do likewise: support medical organizations that follow Halachah, rather than MDA.
Maybe what the rabbonim are talking about is that the other drivers are women not the patients
Why are there so many suspicious minded people here? The gedolim know exactly why and what they signing for. What does this have to do with opposite gender? There are many halachic ramifications which need to be dealt with when working for an organization which is not shomer Torah umitzvos. Besides, most calls for MDA are NOT life threatening. Of course in life threatening situations we can do whatever it takes to save a nefesh mi’Yisrael. Rabosai, negativism is not healthy b’gashmiyus and b’ruchnitus.
I’m a volunteer for MDA they work hand in hand with united hatzalah,this only brings more hatred on to the charedim if u think it’s not enough,who’s ever joining MDA knows what it involves,and they have a choice of whom to work with I personally work with only frum volunteer’s so I hope this controversy is fixed up right away
#1) where in the article did you see anything about touching the opposite gender? it says “sources involved in the ad pointed to difficult modesty problems the organization’s Charedi activists are forced to Work with” it also says Volunteering not through these organizations may, God forbid, lead to serious prohibitions – both in terms of general conduct and spiritual influence, and in terms of Torah prohibitions and particularly Hilchos Shabbos”
So before you question the roabbonim, read!
eyefortruth A bisel derech eretz for Rav eliyashev , Rav shteineman, !! if not for these gedolim and the ppl that listen to them vult shoin nisht geven a Klal Yisroel !
I don’t think that anyone can comment unless try have seen MDA firsthand. I have lived in Israel for eleven years. The MDA crew is largely made up of young boys and girls. Unlike American EMS, the Israeli MDA is not strict with uniform dress. The young Israeli women wear very tight clothing along with VERY open shirts. This, along with being in close, an many times physical contact is breeding ground for improper behaivour. There is no dire need for extra volunteers, therefore it is commanded by our gedolim not to place our youth in such perilous locations. MDA is not saving less lives by not having our frum children working for them.
To #1. You obviously have no inkling of what goes on when the EMT’s are NOT on call. But I can tell you. In between calls, and especially the night shift, these boys and girls (yes, boys and girls ages 16-20, not men and women) have to have some type of entertainment. So what do they do? They sit around and watch movies together. Notwithstanding the rating of the movies, it’s like taking out a girl to the movies, but this happens on a constant basis. A friend of mine volunteers for them and you know who he ended up marrying? One of the other female EMTs.
Trust me the gedolim know what they’re talking about.
Realtruth, the dificulties you mention are good reasons to advise chareidim to avoid service in MDA, but the above mentioned gedolim are not offering “advice”. The are paskening l’halacha that it is assur to join MDA. As great as they may be, no godol of any generation can simply make up halacha. I would like to know on what basis in sha’as and poskim are they issuing their psak?
P.S. None of the dificulties you mention are important in cases of pikuach nefesh.
Yep, I have seen it a long time ago. MDA does great work, but the environment is not really conducive to frum people. I can tell you even more, but it really so bad that you won’t believe it even though it is true.
Again, they do great work, but it’s not the environment you would want your frum boy or girl to be in… sadly…
9, I am NOT a rosh yeshiva but even I know these detractors done even come up to the bottom of the gedolay ha’dor tiny toes but they talk like they are the biggest mumchim.
I find it hard to believe that the gedolim were given the full picture before issuing this blanket statement. As a volunteer for MDA for the last 5 years i have seen what some of the above comments are referring to with regard to mingling but in general these people are not from the frum crowd( not that it makes it right) but that being the fact this psak is not going to matter to them. also one must note that it is up to each individual volunteer to decide with who he volunteers with who the crew will be made up from. There IS a need for volunteers and really i should be left up to each person to speak with their own rav and decide if its right for them or not. Also this does nothing to help with the relationship between the frum and not frum. what this seems like to me is that a certain hatzalh org. which will remain nameless for now and that is in constant fight with MDA has probably gone ahead with some good stories and some partial info and with that gotten this letter signed. I hope that this matter clears up so that we frum volunteers are able to go on saving your lives without fear of the community thinking one way or another about us. and i daven for the day when our services are no longer needed.
How can one question a gadol?
I really hope they work to convince they MDA to raise their standards so that Klal Yisorel can unite around these life saving organizations. However until that happens I don’t see what’s wrong with volunteering for United Hatzolah instead of the MDA. I am assuming that an effort was already made to convince the MDA to work within the confines of Halacha (as Hatzolah does). I hope that this convinces them.
The Meraglim could stay in Yericho in the company and home of a harlot whose very livelihood revolved around complete immorality (even if she later did tshuva and converted) (Rachav) when Jewish lives were not at stake (Hashem had declared that he would ensure the conquest of Yericho miraculously).
So, I am trying to understand – The frum individuals who volunteer are already self selecting maaminim who have a particular element of tzidkus in helping their fellow Jew. The non frum who do this important work as well are motivated to help their fellow Jew as well, even if they are not dressed as tznius as they could be, or they are watching movies in their spare time. And all of this when there ARE lives at stake.
Here we have two elements who are already a cut above their peers in the ways that matter. We have the evidence of sefer Yehoshua that shows us it is permissible to associate with a prostitute for a holy purpose. kal Vachomer working in a professional manner with someone who is not such a person as Rachav but who has weakness in the way they dress. I know none of us are at the madreigah of Pinchas and Caliev, but we are told these details so we can derive practical lessons from them.
The ban is not on using MDA but on frume who may want to volunteer for the wrong reasons.
” A friend of mine volunteers for them and you know who he ended up marrying? One of the other female EMTs.”
Baruch HaShem! More marriages, more Jewish children!!! We have a partial solution to the shidduch crisis.
I’m amazed that anyone would think that tremendous breaches of Tzeniyus (as discussed in posts 10, 11, and 13) are not strong grounds for Frum people to avoid volunteering for this organization. If Chareidi volunteers are needed, let the organization clean up its act.
yichusdik: I think you are a real sickie. Where did you learn to associate with prostitutes is ok if there is some kedusha involved? I think you should come here to Israel and see what happens at MDA in rest time…
You certainly would not want your son or daughter making the associations that I have seen…
#12: My Rabbi teaches that it’s assur to put yourself into a nisayon. He says it’s HALACHA that if you have two paths to get home and the shorter one takes you past a brothel you HAVE to take the longer way so as not to encounter that nisayon. So it makes sense that volunteers should be volunteering with frum organizations rather than riding around, having overnight shifts, and LOTS of downtime with non-frum, non-tzanuah, men and women.
Assuming you haven’t learned all of halacha, why are you questioning whether or not our GADOLIM are acting in accordance with it?
As for everyone else who questions the big deal, as a former EMT, I can tell you several things. First, as others have mentioned, much of the time you are sitting around socializing, waiting for the next call. Sometimes you are sleeping in rooms with other men/women, sometimes just hanging out on the ambulance. So men who wouldn’t normally be shmoozing with girls, particularly in yichud, should probably not be working for non-frum organizations.
Second of all, I can’t tell you how many romantic relationships formed between men and women on the corps I worked for. During high-adrenaline situations (i.e. emergency calls) people tend to form bonds and this can EASILY (even more easily than just watching movies) lead to romantic relationships. So before you criticize gadolim for wanting to protect frum boys, perhaps you should consider every aspect of what it means to be on an ambulance– and that’s still not taking into account the many other halachic shailos that come up.
To #20,
It sounds like you’re being either cynical or naive. I think the point was that a frum fellow ended up marrying a non-frum girl, and that the Shidduch was completely inappropriate for anyone wanting to build a Torah home.
Its terribly hard to believe that any of those disagreeing with this psak by claiming Pikuach Nefesh have ANY expertise in halacha. First of all, Pikuach Nefesh does not override אביזרייהו דגילוי עריות which is what seems to be the concern here. And secondly, Pikuach Nefesh does not override an issur if the Pikuach Nefesh is not immediate and certain (Yes, that is extremely simplified). For example, no Posek would allow someone to take a written EMT test on shabbos even if that was the only date available.
But again, those that don’t have Emunas Chachomim will not be convinced by Halacha. That is totally besides the point.
You know people, its very simple, go to your own personal rav and present he facts and let him pasken. There, problem solved.
It’s a pity that everyone jumps to conclusions and starts offering their heartfelt opinions on an issue the media quotes.
I will let you in on a little secret.
95% of what the media quotes, is not accurate. This applies to any subject. the terms “Honest reporting” and “non biased journalism” seem to be a thing of the past not relevant for todays media outlets. They all have an agenda and post items based on those agenda’s.
I happenned to have seen the letter from the Gedolim, and they say something else entirely…
The Halachic issur they pasken is for Frum people to do “Sheirut Leumi” in MDA, where they have to be in the MDA station every day and then indeed be in uncomfortable positions as far as Tznius goes.
Regarding regular volunteer activities such as riding ambulances on shift, those same Gedolim very clearly pasken that any Frum person MAY volunteer in MDA so long as it’s done THROUGH a Hatzolah organization that is under constant Rabbinical guidance and observation.
In Israel, Hatzolah organizations are set up in a way where they work hand in hand with MDA as all emergency calls come in to MDA’s dispatch and are then sent out to the Hatzolah members in the field.
There is no other rescue service that functions on its own that one can volunteer with which is fully under the guidance of Rabbonim, and that is why the Rabbanim allowed continued volunteering in MDA, but stipulated that it must be through the guidance of the Rabbonim which guide the real Hatzolah organizations.
Example: “Hatzolah Gush Dan” which is the Hatzolah organization in Bnei Brak and surrounding area’s, and is under the auspices of Harav Shmuel Vozner Shlit’a who specifcally stated their members can continue volunteering in MDA as they answer the criteria set by the Gedolim of being members in a proper Hatzolah organization which is guided by Rabbonim.
“HALACHO LO BASHAMAYIM HE” – YES! gedolim DO have the power over halacha! We accept what they say even when we don’t understand, that is what halachic AUTHORITY is.
Those of you who question / judge these gedolei olam are playing with fire. I wish you luck playing “g-d”.
Just a note to “lakwoodr” (25): you are confusing the din of “jaharog ve’al jaavoir’ with “pikuach nefesh”. There is no restriction on saving a jewish life. Check the gemoro about “chossid shotteh”.
BS”D
I would hope that a clarification goes out, which also requests that every able-bodied man volunteer either with United Hatzoloh, Zaka or Yedidim (expanding EY version of Chavyrim). That would be the end of any controversy.
Indeed, in every place where bnei Torah live, we volunteer with our own rescue and aid societies, which tend to have far better records than paid or volunteer general societies.
Having been insulted by an MDA employee when I went to donate blood in Y-m (where practically every non-directed donor is frum) I would never give one agora to that organization. If I could drain my own blood and bring it to Maayanei HaYeshua or Shaarei Tzedek, I’d do just that next time I go to EY.
Late to the party, but just wanted to point out that RabbiOfBerlin is not entirely correct. The famous “test case” is where a doctor’s wife is sick and a nidah. Without pikuach nefashos (P”N), all agree that he may not even take her pulse. With P”N, it is a machlokes rishonim, principally the Ramban and the Rambam. The Rambam is a machmir in what we call avuzrai d’giluy arayos (ADG”A), and the Ramban is a meykil. The mechaber paskens like the Rambam, as usual, l’chumra.
The Shach argues on the Mechaber and paskens that there is no issue of ADG”A in P”N situations, but only because he 1) relies on the Ramban, who holds it is only d’rabonon in this case to begin with, and 2) he would like to argue on the mechaber’s assessment of the Rambam, and limit the scope of d’araysa of ADG”A. There are those who argue with the Shach and support the mechaber.
Today, the common psak is to avoid the situation of ADG”A, even for P”N, but where it is unavoidable, to take many precautions. In Hatzolah, it is assumed to be unavoidable, and where there is true P”N, precautions are counterproductive. Therefore, just as Shabbos is Tuesday, women are men, where the woman is a P”N patient. Further, with the limitations of EMT and Paramedic equipment and training, the umbrella of safek P”N (which is the same as P”N) is very large. However, there is very little heter for ADG”A during shift (when not on a call), where the ADG”A is obviously with the other EMTs. That ADG”A is unavoidable at many stations.
So, no, it is not true that ADG”A applies only to “jaharog ve’al jaavoir” and not “pikuach nefesh.” It clearly does even according to the meykilim, given the test case. The only question is how much room there is to override the “jaharog ve’al jaavoir” in cases of P”N. That should be obvious kal v’chomer, anyway. Further, it is irrelevant to the kol koreh referenced here, because there is no P”N at all.
Btw, “jaharog ve’al jaavoir” is an odd way of transliterating. As a Berliner, I understand the “J” for “Jud.” But then it is an oxymoron to use a “choi-lam” instead of a “chow-lam” (or at least a “choe-lam”) in the same phrase.