New Israeli President Shimon Peres spoke with the Associated Press on Sunday, and was quoted as saying “we have to get rid of the territories… I shall respect the minority, I shall not insult them… I changed my position. I didn’t change my beliefs.” The political right is enraged over president’s comments on ‘getting rid of territories.
This is what we were afraid of – that Peres would continue to push his political agenda as president. It is regrettable that on his very first day he chose to voice opinions that drive a wedge though the people instead of uniting them,” said MK Yitzhak Levy (National Union) Sunday, in response to the new president’s inauguration speech.
MK Yisrael Katz (Likud) expressed his regrets over Peres’ “lack of restraint on this day of all days… I hope that as president, Peres would stay out of the political debate, which is the Knesset and the government’s business.”
“The cat is finally out the bag,” said MK Yuli Edelstein (Likud). “Those who voted for Peres will soon find that his term as president may cause the presidential institution to sink to new lows of political scuffle.”
“This is a critical time for this institution, a time in which there is very little faith in it. We should have chosen someone worthy to lead it – what a shame Peres isn’t that someone.”
(Source: Ynet)
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52 Responses
Peres is planning to be the Prime Minister throught the Presidency. The SHAS party will need to explain the reason for this candidate as choice when R.Rivlin would have united the nation.
Who is to say holding on to the territories will save more Jewish lives than giving up the territories?
Who is the expert here?
Jos, For sure Peres is not the expert.
Our own ‘leaders’are are own worst enemies. The only ones who are our REAL leaders are the Torah spokesmen,the Rabbonim,since we have no novi or urim vetumim. these people are like Bil’am,not Moshe.Their brains are connected to the wrong channel.
Let us be mispallel with more kavono,especially now,right before Tish’a b’Av
Uver ubutil.
(Even though he’s not yet 100.)
far from butil..
Dvora: Many gedolim, including Rav Shach, held differently.
midwesterner
Not anymore! Daas Torah is reimplemented as more info & knowledge is revealed.
Actually, Rav Shach never said that giving back land would or would not cause loss of Jewish life. Rav Shach said that “if we knew for sure that it would cave Jewish lives, it would be muttar to give them land. However, we don’t know this for sure.
Rav Shach’s point was only to disagree with the shitah that giving land to goyim is a yaihareg v’al yaavor, which was a shitah held by the Lubavitcher Rebbe (and possibly others?). Rav Shach said that it is not a yaihareg v’al yaavor. But to the best of my knowledge Rav Shach never said that it would save Jewish lives. Nor did he necessarily advocate doing so, to the best of my knowledge.
What exactly is the President’s job and function?
add ‘shvuos shove’ to this ‘Friend of Arafat’s long list of aveiros
#9 Did Rav Shach Z”tl hold differently? With all due respect, why do many of his talmidim live in Beitar which is well over the “green line”?!
It is doubtful, to me, at any rate, that any Gadol would argue that doing ANYTHING in terms of working with the Arabs, can or would do anything beneficial. No sort of diplomacy can help with the Arabs anymore, I think. Ain lanu ela Avinu Shebashamayim! We need Torah, Tefilah, maasim tovim, and a big heap of teshuvah.
I had just fired off a quickie response to Dvora in #9. Reb Motcha in #11 actually elaborated a bit more fully what the shita of litvishe gedolim.
Rav Shach never said blanket to give back. Only that the karka is not worth the lives and assessment needs to be made. Jewish lives are the ultimate value, not the land per se.
To Dvora in #14, giving back Sinai in 78-79, and various parts of the WEst bank in later times, arguably HAS saved lives. The consensus of many gedolim was that the return of Gaza in 2005-2006 would not save lives, which is why most gedolim were against that. Rav Shach obviouly did not weigh in for us on that matter.
And to Kach of #15, the shita of the litvishe gedolim (Rav Shach b’rosham) was NOT always give back, as stated above. There are many areas of the shetachim that they believed we should hold on to. Which is why there are litvishe chareidishe settlements in place like Beitar, but much less in places like Efrat and Chevron.
Its clear that if giving back all the territories would save even one Jewish life, it should all be given in a heartbeat.
Read his entire speech (it is printed in HaAretz)and then comment.
18. Right, but it won’t.
We need to understand that the Arabs’ goal, as stated in the Koran, is to infidels three options: 1. Convert to Islam; 2. Become subservient (i.e. enslaved and physically persecuted) to Islam; 3. Die.
There is no negotiating on these three options, as proven by 700 years of history.
shazam, I disagree. It is not clear cut that giving them land will not save lives.
In fact Rav Shach has on some occasions supported giving land to the Arabs on the basis that it willsave Jewish lives.
21: Re: R’ Shach, ZTz”L, see what other posters have to say about EXACTLY what he said.
In the long run, I stand by my post. Give them a finger, they’ll want a hand. Ein l’dovor sof, unless we put a stop to it NOW.
shazam, Rav Shach has supported giving land depending on the situation. That is the qualification pointed out above.
The point remains, Rav Shach was open to giving the Arabs the land.
Joseph, “Its clear that if giving back all the territories would save even one Jewish life, it should all be given in a heartbeat.”
What if common sense tells you that the arabs will kill us in a heartbeat if they had the chance. Look, they are killing each other why would they not kill us?
Stop living in a dream world that they might live side by side.Its a myth. It aint going to happen. What happened 100 years ago is not happening today. Just look whats going on around you and stop having the neturei karta mindset that they somehow will be dancing at our kids weddings and being a wonderful neighbor to us.
mike, If you hold your opinion of this matter in greater esteem than that of Rav Shach, I cannot argue with you.
Joseph, how long ago did rav Shach make this statement? Which Torah authority today has made the assesment that by returning land to blood thirsty arabs will save a jewish life?
mike, Rav Shach assessment is as valid today as the day he made it. Rav Shach is a contemporary Gaon, despite his recent passing.
If you disagree, please tell me what has changed since Rav Shach made his comments.
Joseph, If you are a big fan of following Rav shach Zatzal, I am sure he will tell you that by being busy all day writing comments is considered bitul torah. Are you prepared to cease blogging and learn instead. I am sure you are koveah itim, but I am also sure that Rav Shach considers this bitul torah. So which way do you want to go?
mike, I’ll go the way of the Torah. Thanks for the encouragement.
Has my logic infuriated you so much that you are ordering me off this blog? Let me understand; if I comment on this blog, I cannot point out Rav Shach’s position on giving land to the Arabs. I must leave that task to you. So you can do so unfettered by inconvenient positions of Hagoen HaRav Shach.
Does this mean all of us YW commentators who hold of Rav Shach must leave immediately? Perhaps you ought to suggest to YW Editor that he shut down…
Dvora, I’m rather upset at your statement. I would not have expected you to denigrate Daas Torah!
Rav Shach’s statement was not unclear. It was perhaps unclear to you, but what he said was clear to those who took the time to check out what he said. It was as I stated it above, to the best of my knowledge, and that should indeed make it clear.
I have a sneaky suspicion that Joseph is a YW operative.
Although it sounds terribly exciting, I am not aware of any ‘undercover operatives’. 🙂
-Moderator
Joseph to base: over.
Dvora: I apologize. But actually, I got my information drirectly from one of his talmidim. But who here has quoted Rav Shach differently?
Alright, who spilled the beans? Who blew my cover? This seriously impedes my mission to infiltrate and penetrate the opposition cells on YW.
This is a serious security breach that compromises our integrity and operation. An investigation must immediately be commenced! Guilty parties must be prosecuted and forever banned from these hallowed webpages of YW.
Dvorah, What is “extreme” about Rav Shach’s position? You have chutzpah attacking and denigrating Daas Torah, and then trying to defend yourself by saying “I would never, ever denigrate Daas Torah on this site.“ Well, don’t denigrate and attack Daas Torah on any site or anywhere!
Saying, as you did, that One of the many inherent problems of Daas Torah. is an out and out slap at Daas Torah. Do teshuvah.
Dvorah – A little bit tzinius please. Just a little, at least.
Although it sounds terribly exciting, I am not aware of any ‘undercover operatives’. 🙂
-Moderator
Are you suggesting that not ONE member of the site administration including the moderating panel ever comments?
Joseph to base:Will be going undercover; Under cloak of anonymity; Use of various pseudonym will be initiated.
Mission:penetrate.
Goal:infiltrate.
Status:Top secret; Classified; For Your Eyes Only.
Yes, its all one very big CONSPIRACY!
No, Lee Harvey Oswald didn’t do it alone. Yes, YW is posting secret comments…
Let all conspiracy theorist unite. Welcome to the new YW Conspiracy Club! Founding members are mikedrezz, Devorah, nameless, and Moe. Membership is free–you just gotta believe! Believe in the great YW conspiracy!
Fighters for Kavod Hatorah unite!
Join us in the holy land!
What ya fighting about? Who you giving land to?
Do you remember how the Arabs burned down some land of shevet Yehudah (GAZA) when they received it on a platter of dung? Now there’s only fighting, and rocket shotting, ASHDOT, ASHKELON are in range of targets, peace, ha, ha, maybe a piece.
Joseph, go get a full time job. Maybe some sanity will kick in.
Joseph , I am sure rav shach would approve of you listening to the Bob Grant radio show.
mr. drezz, you’re the one who needs to get it. can you do anything other than make a bad attempt at an ad hominem personal attacks against anyone and everyone who disproves your bad points?
also, what is your issue against Rav Shach? can you find no one lesser to direct your sly attacks against?
Mike – Your making unsubstantiated attacks on people and Rabbonim while failing to respond to the points seriously indicate an issue.
drezz, you won’t be able to cover your tracks by attempting to deflect attention on others with personal attacks.
Dvorah, at least you had the courage to come out and admit you are wrong. Penance is the first step towards forgiveness.
Agent Joseph to YW: shall we proceed with operation?
wsx, the previous comment will more than likely not be posted because it answers your pathetic claim that I said something against Rav shach.Instead of you addressing the issue that phonies like you and Joseph are inconsistent, you distort and ignore the reality of my concern.
wsx wrote “also, what is your issue against Rav Shach? can you find no one lesser to direct your sly attacks against? ”
Where in any of these posts did I attack Rav Shach?
midedress, you’ve engaged in ad hominem attacks (“get a job”, “YW operative”, etc.) responses rather than answering the question repeated in your comments above.
You’ve indicated above Rav Shach’s opinion is no longer valid since he was niftar, and we need a new opinion of someone alive. We’ll guess what. Rav Shach’s torah, psak, etc. is as relevant today as ever. You also seem to think that if someone quotes Rav Shach they cannot be allowed on YW.
Dvorah, you wrote: the Gemara and Poskim surely don’t use it as we do today…
I suspect I must misunderstand what you mean.
I say this because what I THINK you are referring to is actually the principle method used by the Gemara and Poskim. They cite authority. All the time. The Gemara uses the term “Maaseh Rav,” iirc, and not the term “Daas Torah,” I believe. (I haven’t checked for this yet.)
A primary method of the Gemara is checking the sources against each other. Often the Gemara will accept a Halachah because of the source.
Of course, the various sources are also weighed against each other, but in most of the cases the Gemara attempts to reconcile differing opinions by showing how they each refer to something else, and not that they actually disagree.
The entire process of Halachah is that it is a Mesorah.
If you mean that the Gemara did not use the refrain “Daas Torah” or other citings of authority as a means to stifling honest debate and discussion, then I believe you are absolutely correct. That would be a perversion opf the Halachic process.
But nevertheless, even the Gemara sometimes cites a Halachic figure of authority, and that conclusively ends the doubt. It then remains only to reconcile all other dissenting views as best as possible, and bring them in line with the authority, whenever possible, which the Gemara does, or else Tosafos or other Meforshim and Poskim do, as I wrote above.
Dvorah, Sure. I just thought it was courageous of you to have admitted you were wrong.
Now I understand why it is assur for a woman to learn Gemorah.
Dvorah: Yes, argue and argue — but the psak remains the same psak. That is, we may not understand why the Halachah is what it is, and we may argue and debate the logic of it all day and all year, but we are still mechuyav to accept the Halachah as told to us by the Gadol we don’t understand.
Therein lies the doctrine of “Daas Torah,” as I understand it.
DVORAH you are great. They say the best Yiddim are living in Yehuda and Shomorn.