20 Responses

1. Must we do things like the sh’choyrim?!!

2. As egregious and inexcusable as it is that the Israeli police are holding 9 chareidim in jail, “300 Charedim blocking the street, torching dumpsters, and throwing rocks and bottles at the Israeli police” will realistically only accomplish 300 MORE chareidim being held in jail. Since when does vitriolic, anti-semitic, hateful behavior of the Israeli police justify such ugly, aberrant misbehavior on the part of Chareidim L’Dvar Hashem?????

3. Are there any choshuveh rabbonim/manhiggim who support these hafgonos?

   If not, let them all sit in jail.

4. Rioters arrested for protesting the arrest of rioters … Im Kein, Ein LaDavar Sof.

5. yea please name ONE Rav that supports such behavior. I daven that our GEDOLIM come out united against this THUGGERY. RABBOSI seriously whaat can be done to defend c’vod Hashem. If yw could save vaoloshin i think we could save klal Yisroel room this terrible busha

6. Are there any choshuveh rabbonim/manhiggim who support these hafgonos?
   And if yes, that makes it OK? It’s thoughts like that, that start these riots in the first place.

7. Why is it inexcuseable to be held in jail, for throwing rocks, smashing a windshield of a bus? Someone provide the bail or monetary promise so they can be set free for shabbos.

8. Ephraim. What are you saying? Are you really saying that if (I repeat if) Choshuveh Rabbonim would have paskend that it is the right thing to do, that it would still have been wrong? What about Daas Torah? The fact is of course that Daas Torah does not allow this type of behaviour, but your comment is definitely not daas Torah.

9. What about Daas Torah? The fact is of course that Daas Torah does not allow this type of behaviour, but your comment is definitely not daas Torah.

   Comment by Imanonov — July 12, 2007 @ 8:28 pm

   Last time i opened a gemara, i

10. What about Daas Torah? The fact is of course that Daas Torah does not allow this type of behaviour, but your comment is definitely not daas Torah.

    Comment by Imanonov — July 12, 2007 @ 8:28 pm

    you are mistaken in multiple dimensions.

    1) LAST TIME I CHECKED, OUR TRADITION IS REPLETE WITH MULTIPLE OPINIONS. (Eizehu Mekomom is a unique perek because it records no disagreements.) DAAS TORAH IN THE SINGULAR IS MORE AKIN TO THE NOTION OF ex cathedra, lehavdil. 2) HISTORY HAS TAUGHT US THAT NOT ALL THINGS SUPPORTED BY GEDOLIM ARE, IN RETROSPECT, EVEN PLAUSIBLE, LET ALONE CORRECT. The supporters of shabbtai tzvi included, for a while, a number of prominent gedolim 3) OUR TRADITION EVEN RECOGNIZES THE POSSIBILITY THAT A MAJORITY CAN BE ERROR – Par Helam davar shel tzibbur. 4) Thugs supported by gedolim are still thugs, its their supporters status as gedolim that one might question. Fortunately, I have heard of no supporting gedolim. At most, you can argue that Gedolim should be more vocal in condemnation.

11. the oilam shouldjust know that i was at many of these hafganas and even if you dont agree with why they are making the hafganah the cops well exceed their jurisdiction of power. there is never been violence until the police rishaim show up and beat the heiligah yiddin who are protecting their rights to a democratic way of life
    biderech hatorah neileich B’AISH U’BAMAYIM

12. two wrongs dont make a right
    also bnai Torah should know how to behave
    where as policemen are tinuk shenishba if they are Jewish at all
    I am against zionism
    but I am more against thuggery
    please daven thaat the Rabonim issue a Kol Koreh against this!!!
    Secel needs to take back the streets.

13. DrYidd. This is not the forum to go into the whole odea of Daas Torah. You are not saying anything news; it has all been chewed over many times by others who (want to) think that their own seichel is more reliable than that of Gedolei Torah whose seichel is purified and elevated by their committed Torah learning. Our Gedolim NEVER made mistakes. Even if the outcome of their Psak was different than even they themselves might have hoped, their Psak was correct al pi Torah and was they way how H’ wanted it. Tsei Ulemad.

14. This is nothing more than another example of continous Sinas Chinom amongst us unfortunately. As someone said on a previous blog, even during the three weeks, we have NOT yetlearnt from past mistakes. We can WAIT long and hard for the third B’H to be rebuild if situations like these dont change. From both sides!!!

15. Tell these thugs that by learning a blatt gemorah will accomplish a lot more.

16. Mark Levin, I did not know you had the element of racism in you. You’d be surprised who reads this site and what terminology they understand. Just refrain next time from this kind of rhetoric.

17. I find this very disturbing that some of the comments are saying that Dass Torah would be wrong.

    I also don’t think very highly of saying “of course Dass Torah is against such course of action”. Obviously the writer has a very high opinion of himself.

    We are aware of times when such manner was condoned and promoted by the Gedolim.

    In addition, please note that anyone who has ever been by an Hafgonnah knows that the news reports are terribly skewed. If only there would be permanent placement of cameras to show what really happens.

    Tinokas Shenishba is an absurd excuse for the actions of the police during thses demonstrations. Every gentile is aware of the vileness of such violent bahavior. The only way anyone could take such liberties is if one views your victims as subhuman.

    That comes from the Chinuch the Chilonim are getting and the press.

    Do you wish to call them Tinokes Shenishba because of these exposures?

    I guess you have a very liberal view of suicide bombers

18. amhaaretz “news reports are terribly skewed”-very true at times, but not when a windshield of a bus in RBS was shattered by a rock thrown, and frum riders saw & felt the aggression. You can not white wash every incident that occurs.
    “such manner were condoned and promoted by Gdolim”, would you let us be privy to when Gdolim condoned and promoted rock throwing and garbage burning? Names (of Gdolim), When (dates and times), Where? & What events?
    The majority of Police are Jewish and some are even torah observant, there are some nonjews also (was that was you meant by gentile).

19. Dear Imanonov,
    It is due to the tremendous respect that I have torwards Raboseinu, Shemipihem Onu Chayim, that I will refrain from listing the long list of their human mistakes. The more I think of it, the more your comment seems void of any historic knoledge. Tzei Ulmad indeed.

20. Dear Esrog
    I don’t claim to have more historical knowledge than anyone else, but have enough of it to know some of the cases you might be thinking off. And I maintain my stand that our gedolim NEVER made mistakes. Their Daas Torah demanded that they paskend what they were meant to pasken. HKBH did with it what He knew had to be done. The fact that you and I can’t see the Emmes in their psak, and it might appear to us that their psak was a mistake, that is only due to the fact that we do not have daas Torah and look at the outcome with our klein-keppelech way of looking at it.
    Just one example which comes to mind at the moment.
    Many Gedolim were asked before WWII by their pupils whether they shouldn’t move to the USA or elsewhere because of the dangerous matzav. In many cases they said no and these people perished in the Holocaust. Was their psak a mistake? Definitely not. That was Daas Torah. The outcome? That was what H’ wanted to happen to these kedoshim (in fact Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb shlitoh brings the valid point that as maaminim we must believe that since that is what Hashem wanted that this should happen to these Kedoshim, if they WOULD have moved to the USA, the gaschambers would possibly and chas vesholom have come to the USA too!!!).