17 Responses

1. Yashir koach. Now let him lean on the rest of the “national-religious” rabbis who think their ideological purity is more important than guarding the lives of their fellow Jews.

2. Sad, but an appropriate response for spurring insubordination within the Israeli military.

3. #1, I agree. #2, I don’t agree. There are different ways of handling insubordination within military ranks other than verbally and governmentally attacking and closing a yeshiva and displacing its talmidim. This kind of action is more a power action than a solution. A very sad action on the part of the Israeli government. Very sad.

4. Clever move, Melamed is now check mate. If he retracts he is lost and if he stays defiant he is in danger of losing his yeshiva.

5. how many German soldiers claimed they were obeying orders when the forced jews into ghettos and cattle trucks.
   Must the Israeli soldier now have to obey instructions to evict his family from their homes.
   Does the Jewish neshome allow itself to sink that low?

6. Very difficult situation. However, I don’t think any other Hesder Yeshivas are in favor of evicting families from their homes, or that any religious soldiers of any kind, even not Yeshiva trained would do it. Therefore the alternative is for the army to completely eliminate all religious soldiers. I doubt they would want to do this, since they are among the most highly motivated and maintain the high morale of the army in general, which is critical for good performance. Once soldiers start doubting why they are in the army to begin with and what the purpose is of preserving Israel as a Jewish state, then the entire army may collapse, as people desert. I doubt the army wants to see this happen, or make a rift between the religious and non-religious soldiers.

   What probably needs to be done now is for all Hesder Yeshivas and all religious soldiers to band together and pressure Barak to rescind this order, or they will all leave the army together. It can’t be that one Yeshiva is left to fend for itself alone. With enough support, a compromise can be worked out to make everybody happy.

7. It was predictable that someone would equate this with the Nazis. Pathetic.

8. If I have to choose between Toras Moishe & le Havdil Toras Ehud my choice is easy.
   Barak is a self hating Jew who is only out for himself.
   He was willing to sink his own party into oblivion in order to get his “bankel”.
   Shame on him!

9. #7 And is the comparison not apt?

10. “#7 And is the comparison not apt?”

    In the absence of mental illness, only blinding hatred could explain such an outrageous comparison.

11. No, Jews are not nazis.

12. In 1956 there was an incident in the Israeli Arab village of Kfar Kassam where Israeli soldiers followed the orders of their commander, they were all court marshaled. the military court punished them because their moral principles should have prevailed over and above the orders of their commander, citing the Nuremberg trials where it was decided that a soldier cannot say “I was only following orders” as his only defense.

    Conversely, another Israeli soldier (in the reserves) who not only refused to obey the orders of his commander but also protested publicly and gained a fair amount of support for his insubordination, was surprised when those orders were dropped and he was not punished for his behaviour.

    the first case was when the commander told his soldiers to shoot at arabs evading a curfew.
    the later case was when a senior IDF officer gave an order to demolish some of the Arab villages in the Latrun area.

    so the moral lesson (taught by the IDF courts) is not to shoot at arabs when they present a danger to jewish soldiers and not to destroy arab homes. is it not hypocritical to treat homes of jews in the jewish homeland as anything less than arab homes – and jews who protest against a command that jews must be expelled from their homes – who are following the rule of their Creator – are thrown out of the army.

    surely Barak should bare those 2 cases in mind before starting a witch-hunt against all Chesder yeshivahs. It can only be a matter of time before other Chesder Yeshivas support Rabbi Melamid’s decision and are also stricken or stay quiet and get stricken in the future when other reasons are found.

    If Barak really cared about the IDF he would not have given an ultimatum. After all, Barak’s decision will initiate a terrible rift amid all ranks of the army – which in turn will destroy the fabric of the IDF far more than Rabbi Melamed’s psak.

13. Here’s a more complete history of the Kfar Kassem incident. I think that it paints a significantly different picture than the above post does and that this incident is in no way a parallel or a precedent to what is currently taking place in Israel:

    On October 29, 1956, on the eve of the Sinai Campaign, the Israeli army ordered all Israeli Arab villages near the Jordanian border placed under a wartime curfew that was to apply from 5 p.m. until 6 a.m. the next day. Any Arab on the streets was to be shot. The order was given to Israeli Border Police units at 3:30 before most of the Arabs from the villages could be notified. Many of them were at work at the time.

    At Kfar Kassem, villagers began to arrive from work to their homes after the curfew. Israeli Border Police opened fire on them. A total of 47 Israeli Arabs were killed (some sources say 51 dead). The news of the killings was censored and the general Israeli public did not learn what happened until several weeks later when Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion announced the findings of a secret inquiry. The event was shocking to the Israeli public who demanded, and got, a full investigation. Prime Minister Ben Gurion said the act, “struck at the holiest principles of human morality”, perhaps reminded of Nazis who claimed they were “just following orders”.

    The extensive investigation revealed that the local commander had issued an illegal order. As a result, about two years after the event, eleven border policemen were charged with crimes and eight were convicted of murder on the grounds that it is immoral to fire on unarmed civilians and no possible military order could justify that act. Among the convicted were the unit’s commander who had instructed his soldiers to “kill anyone who violated the curfew.” Major Meilinki and Lt. Daham were sentenced: the former to 17 years and the latter to 15 years. Those who were imprisoned had their terms reduced; no one served more than three and a half years in jail.

    The Israeli Supreme Court made a new ruling on the right and duty of soldiers to disobey unlawful orders. That ruling has been incorporated into Israeli martial law. On the 43rd anniversary of the incident (1999), Israeli civics teachers were instructed to lead a one-hour discussion on Kafr Kassem in their classes. Israel wants its future soldiers to understand the need to identify and disobey an illegal order in accordance with the Supreme Court ruling.

    The source and the complete atrticle can be found at:
    http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_kfarkassem_1956.php

    BTW. I adamantly disagree with the Israel’s political policy. And that policy can be changed through the democratic process…not easy, not quick, not pleasant. But anarchy is not an option.

14. Anyone who expels a Jew from his home can be compared, if not to a Nazi, then a Kapo at least.

15. thank you Slobodon for the extra information.
    but the point is still totally valid.
    did the border police know that the curfew had not been heard by every single arab? were they supposed to ask them if they were breaking the curfew on purpose or by accident, before opening fire?!!!

    did they know these arabs were unarmed, or again are they supposed to ask them first?!!!

    in any case, they followed an order that was LATER announced to be ilegal. is this different from our frum chesder boys who believe that G-d would consider it ilegal to expel jews from the homeland for no benefit whatsoever.

16. Slobodon – with all due respect, your source (palestinefacts.org) is a completely unreliable & totally biased source of information. Not sure why you would even mention it on a Jewish discussion group.

17. The fact that after unarmed civilians were shot as a result from a local commander’s order (who knew or should have known they were unarmed civilians) was later ruled illegal, does not compare to a decision made by the political leadership to cede land or evict settlers from outposts that have been themselves been deemed illegal through the democratically elected government.

    The Kfar Kassem massacre was used by the government to establish a standard of sorts for when a soldier is permitted to disobey an order that is ILLEGAL. The order to dismantle a settlement or outpost is made by the political leadership of the state, making the policy legal by definition. Even if we disagree with it.

    We may vigorously oppose the policy, or even disdain it, and for good reason. But comparing those policies to a massacre of unarmed workers, women and children as the result of a local commander’s order is absurd logic and morally corrupt. Furthermore, it damages our own credibility and, worse, has the potential to incite others to commit similar acts in the name of “justice” or “divine law”. According to this reasoning, would it then be permitted to mow down fifty or so Jewish soldiers who are carrying out “disengagement” orders because you have determined them to be illegal?

    Rabbi Eliezer Waldman, who is the Rosh Yeshiva in Kiryat Arba was quoted just today as opposing protests in the army. Is he therefore acting as a collaborator?

    Anarchy kills. Promoting it in the name of a “divine” directive is abominable.

    As far as the source of the Kfar Kassem information, there is a plethora of documentation (official and unofficial) on this well-known tragedy that supports the information contained in the article that I cited.