Following weeks of stormy protests, involving many misguided youths who took advantage of the opportunity to act inappropriately, Gavaad Eida Chareidis HaRav Tuvia Weiss Shlita has come out publically in condemnation of the violence, calling for a hiatus in weekly protests against the Karta parking lot, condemning the Tuesday night unprovoked attack against an Arab cab driver in Geula.
The Rav condemned the youths who attacked the driver at 2:00am, as well as the youths who earlier in the night took part in a stormy Kikar Shabbos protest, burning garbage and blocking vehicular traffic.
R’ Weiss and other rabbonim of the Eida has come out in opposition of the violence in Yerushalayim, adding the protests against Karta parking lot will be held on side streets, without violence, and not as seen in recent weeks.
(Yechiel Spira – YWN Israel)
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29 Responses
Did he say this just for public consumption or is this real?
We’ll have to wait and see what happens. Action speaks louder than words.
They have been calling for non-violent protests for almost a century, even after such extraordinary provocations as the Hevron massacre (by the Arabs with British connivance) or the assasination of Jacob Israel De Haan (by the zionists, probably with British connivance).
It is the “modern” and up-to-date and fully part of the contemporary world Jews who are into bashing skulls. Frummies are more into throwing dirty diapers (which, Baruch ha-Shem, we have in abundance).
SHAME ON ALL WHO HAVE THE CHUTZPA TO ATTACK RAV WIESS.
#4, please educate yourself about Dehaan and who and what he was before you hold him up as a martyr for the Eidah.
#1, Your ears were stuffed until now.
#3, Don’t place your opinions above Daas Torah, or libel Gedolei Yisroel shlita.
#7, another lie inferred by yourself.
#8, He was a tzaddik gomur.
8. You are totally not informed about this Tzadiks personality, but what ever the case should be, is רצוחה muter just for political purposes, you are talking just like ZIONY
They didn’t murder DeHaan for his SSA (a nisayon which he most probably battled since he became a BT) but for his negotiations with the Arabs (which would earn him today the Noble Prize for Peace).
#7 and #8, please get an Artscroll book on loshon hora, and hurry yourselves to De Haan’s kever before Rosh HaShonoh.
#3, serious people don’t use violence. Just this last shabbos, when I went also, a couple of shababnikim walked along with the real protesters. They said they wanted “action” and they were going to throw anything they could find at the police. Then someone in Yerushalmi dress told them to go home, because, “this is NOT a hafgonoh, this is a macho’oh”. They laughed at him, spit in his direction, and continued walking.
I was there myself, from the 17:00 gathering at Kikar Shabbos until 18:35 when I went home for seudah shlishis.
I walk an hour back and forth (ie, 2 hours total) almost every Shabbos to be there. I’ve been there numerous times now. And the only ones who really disbehave, are “Litvishe” style youth (short or no jackets, Litvishe hat or no hat at all, no peyos), Israeli and American.
The Edah people, the serious protesters (which *does* include Litvaks – Briskers), merely shout at the police. They tried to get onto the street anyway (the police had built a huge corridor along the sidewalk and prevented anyone chareidi from going on the street), and the police pushed/dragged them back. But nothing violent was done.
One American Litvishe guy threw a rock which hit a police officer. A whole group of Magav came running in our direction then. (I didn’t know what had happened then – sometimes they just randomly run into the crowd and beat people). I fled along with tens of others, not knowing what for. The Magav officers just ran past me (ignoring me) and threw that American to the ground, asking, “are you the one who threw the stone??” – which he was…
Every week when I am there, when bystanders (including foreign tourists) ask me what this is about, I apologize for their behavior and explain that the ones with the shtreimlach and the flat hats are the serious ones, who merely come to protest, and not to seek trouble.
# 14. sammygol’s post should be required reading for every single frum jew who has access to the internet.
in the same spirit, i would add that we should review the story of r’ amram told in the last perek of kiddushin. briefly, the amora, r’ amram, was very tempted to commit a serious aveirah. just as he was about to commit the aveirah, he called out the window “FIRE in amram’s house!!”. everyone ran in from the street and caught him in a compromised position.
when asked why he did this (considering the embarrassment/chilul hashem that must have resulted), r’ amram replied that ‘it is better to be ashamed in this world than to be ashamed in the world to come.’ by acknowledging the truth of the matter (as opposed to denying it/covering it up), r’ amram prevented himself from committing a terrible aveirah.
facing the truth is difficult. it is often awkward, uncomfortable, painful, and embarrassing, especially when the truth has been denied for so long. but we know that the seal of Hashem is ‘Emes’ and we must always strive for it, unflattering as it may sometimes be.
perhaps if, as a community, we acknowledged more ‘Emes’ in our world, we could learn some hard lessons so that we would have fewer things to be embarrassed for in the future. if nothing else, we will at least be able to say, like r’ amram, ‘better to be embarrassed in this world than to be embarrassed in the world to come.’
De Haan was in many ways the first “modern” Baal Tsuvah. He was brought up in what would probably be considered a modern Orthodox family, became quite secular, married a non-Jew and had children (suggesting his poetry had nothing to do with his lifestyle).
For his doctorate he studied conditions in the Russian Empire, and had contact with Hareidi Jews for the first time, and over the next 20 years became frum, ending up as the representative of the Hareidi Jews in Eretz Yisrael in negotiating with the goyim (besides being well known as a legal scholar, he was the correspondent for several leading foreign newspapers).
His prestige and skills made it possible for the Hareidim to deal with the major allies (during the time of the establishment of the mandate). He was murdered for being successful, and as a warning to the Hareidi leadership not to oppose the zionists, or else.
akuperma, Yasher Koach.
#15/Aliza:
The Gedolim haven’t just come to this conclusion. It was the conclusion from the onset. Your not having heard it, is not their problem.
Joseph, while Dr. De Haan was perhaps a tzaddik gomur at the time of his murder, NeveAliza’s post is TRUE, even if it shouldn’t have been brought up.
#14/sammygol,
As you (and others) agree what Aliza (#7) said is Loshon Hora, Loshon Hora cannot be believed or accepted as truth. So it is correct to call (and believe) any loshon hora to be a lie (as I called it in #9.)
#yes, like the readings of writers as ‘sholem aleichem’ ‘moshe mendelshon’ etc. his hashkafos are the same. throws in some kosher stuff here and there like the kosher chazer fisel.
# 24
Right, do not accept it. Pick up Sefer Chofetz Chaim and read for yourself.
#3 Neve Aliza: I agree with you!!
#6 Freilach: Take your head out of the sand!
#12 Dan. Brasluer: Great pilpul, not buying it.
Even if today the violence is only “litvaks” and the Eidah chevra are only standing on the side screaming like lemilach, (something that I do not buy for a second), the issue here is, who started all this? They definitely have been violent over the last few months, I was there and saw it myself! The eidah was wrong for starting all this up and they can be blamed for the current toitzuois, whether its Mir bochurim or local Meah shearimnikis, they lit the match and you are defending them by saying that litvaks are hold the torch???
First, the only way in which De Haan’s killing might have been justified was if he was deemed to be endangering Jewish lives. I don’t know if that was the case, and I doubt it was. And I only asked a question about his character. i didn’t justify his killing.
As for his character, if the issues were only in his past, they wouldn’t bear bringing up. And if he wasn’t being held up as a beacon of light for a God Fearing community, I wouldn’t even pay attention. But if one does one’s homework, one can find that (non-zionist) researchers (from Australia, for one) have determined that his ways continued in Yerushalayim, and with non-adults. That’s a red line for me. I suppose though that it isn’t for those who want a stick to hak the zionists with.
One other thing, that doesn’t necessarily reflect on De haan, but on who he was dealing with. Five Years after his death, they were destroying the Jewish community of Chevron, killing 76 people. 16 years after his death, one of those with whom he was dealing (Haj Amin Al Husseini) was sittiing next to Hitler yemach shemo and whispering in his ear about killing all the Jews. So aside from his character, an objective person might also question his judgement, or at least that of those who directed him.
Given the generosity of spirit shown to De Haan, I wonder if R. Alan Stadtmauer would recieve the same largesse from people here?
Did Alan do teshuva, as did De Haan?
sammygol, in response to the question you were about to ask: I refer you again to posts # 21 & 25. Have you yet cracked open Sefer Chofetz Chaim, as advised, since posting to this thread?
#32 What record is there that De Haan did teshuva? That he became shomer Shabbat and an acquitance and tool of R. Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld, says nothing about his provlivities in other areas of his life. Quite the contrary, his poetry, the Quatraines, written in Israel,implies that he carried on his alternate practices even when he representerd the Eida haChareidis. At the same time, what evidence is there that Stadtmauer has ever acted on his urges?
#33, it’s well known that chilul Hashem can occur in private, so your distinction is nebulous. Secondly, I know of no source that renders public toeva more heinous than private toeva. And Stadtmauer did not “come out” He was outed.
#37: Obviously Sefer Chofetz Chaim is a foreign book to yourself.
#37, how can we avoid mentioning R. Yosef Chaim in any conversation of De Haan? After all, R. Tosef Chaim hand picked him to represent the Eida.
Sam, No, the point was about your comments on De Han (not Rav Yosef Chaim) in your post #37.
Those comments could use some refining based on the Sefer Chofetz Chaim.
I have no such evidence
The issue is not what R. Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld knew at the time. I don’t think anyone intends to implicate him in any wrongdoing. Given the social conventions of the post-Victorian times, R. Yosef Chaim probably did not know how De Haan lived his life. People did not disucss such things openly back then.
The issue is the kind treatment De Haan gets these days, despite our knowledge that he probably never curtailed his lifestyle completely and admits as much in his Quatraines. Why is he still considered a hero and martyr of the Chareidim?
I did not mention R. Yosef Chaim except to say that De Haan’s acquaintance with him says nothing about his (de Haan’s) lifestyle. As to what R. Yosef Chaim knew about De Haan’s personal habits, I believe he knew very little; if anything at all. But the irony of the situation, that a person who engaged in the worst types of sins was once the official repreentative of the most extremist group of Orthodox Jews, is compelling. One wonders how could such a thing have happened, even innocently. Where was the Siyata d’Shmaya?
The issue is not about questioning but about reliance. How can we posit the occurance of that we cannot predict? I don’t deny thay God intervenes in worldly affairs. But since I can’t predict when He will do so I never posit that such intervention has occurred. Chareidim do otherwise and it seems nonsense to me to do so.