Yad Vashem officials have released a statement expressing sorrow over a statement made by HaGaon HaRav Ovadia Yosef Shlita, who reportedly stated those who perished in the Holocaust were the souls of sinners from previous generations. Yad Vashem stated the Rav’s words pain the survivors and their families, as well as the families whose loved ones perished in the Holocaust.
The secular media reports refer to statements made by the Rav in his motzei shabbos drasha, in which he stated any calamity that befalls the Jewish People, citing the inquisition and Holocaust were a direct result of the Golden Calf.
The Rav stated that “we believe in the ‘gilgul’ of souls, and “woe to us for the sins, the gilgul of souls of sinners” He explained there are no new souls in our generation. “Those who question the Holocaust and why it occurred, the response is that it is due to the souls of previous generations”.
(Yechiel Spira – YWN Israel)
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26 Responses
Siyug Lachuchmah shtikah,”even” if it is the case, what was he thinking to say something like this. what good did he think would come out of saying these hurtful words?
I’m suprised R ovadia said this, great gadolim were niftar then.
eric55 you forgot the rest of the ma’amar chazal… “kal vechomer le’tipshim”.
we may not understand why our gedolim say things, but we may not question them. (and definetly not hint that they should keep their mouths shut)
you may on the other hand, question the secular press who wait in his shiur every week so that they can find something selacious to write about.
and in case you are wondering, I’m a yekke, not a sfardi. I wouldn’t write the way you or mbachur have written about Rav Elyashiv, nor would I write like that about Rav Yosef.
Before you criticize a Gadol you need to look at his words closely. From these quotes he never said that the ones who died were sinners. He said that they were gilgulim of people who sinned.
In other words Hashem put them on this world for a tikkun; a chessed to their neshama. They are certainly kedoshim. That is no contradiction.
#2 –
You would be better served by heeding your own advice. Namely, “Siyug Lachuchmah shtikah.”
firstly, the secular media is unreliable [to be kind!] when it comes to reporting about chareidim ,incl. chacham ovadiah.
in the past they have misquoted or totaly missunderstood what he was saying. but even asumming he IS being understood correctly-
[my own rabbis/rabeim have given other explanations]
the above questions are simple to answer.
to # 1
here we go again
the answer is simple.
they are kedoshim bec. they were murdered because they were jewish. period.
this has nothing to do with what they [or anyone else] might have done in a previous gilgul.
[btw do u know the source for them being called kdoshim?]
to # 3
who says one cant be a sinner in one gilgul & later u were a gadol?!?! adaraba – maybe thats y he came back -he sinned the first time instead of being a gadol so he came back to get it right the next time. [although for a complete tikkun he still needed to be zoche to die al kiddush hashem.]
Who dares have the nerve to criticize one of today’s greatest Poskim, and Talmidei Chachomim. Anyone careless to say disrespectful words about HaGaon Rav Ovadia Shlita is playing with fire.
Comments 1-3 are written by completely ignorant big mouths. It is entirely beyond me how they have the gall to protest with their lack of knowledge against one of the greatest Torah minds alive today.
And for those of you with short memories, he pronounced precisely the same thing 8 years ago. Why is it in any way derogatory? In fact it is greatly complimentary. If you think about it, the Rav is saying that the horrors experienced during the holocaust were actually due to no sin of their own, only for previous generations. That is greatness. If you would have heard it in context you would have heard how he explained similiarly the horrific deaths of the Asarah Harugei Malchus. They too were not guilty of sin, but rather they atoned for the Shvotim, whom they were gilgulim of.
So why aren’t you protesting that too? ‘How can he say they died because of sins in a previous lifetime??’ That doesn’t seem to bother you. Chazal explain it that way. So why here do you get so incensed? Isn’t it incredible that the Holocaust victims are given the same status as there great Kedoshim? How disgusting of people to skew up a misunderstood Shiur for the purpose of unjust criticism.
In fact, if I may add, it is a sad truth that people are willing to vindicate the Holocaust victims of any trace of sin whatsoever, thereby pointing a finger upward, leading to thoughts of Kefira. Let’s set this straight: Humans are not always perfect. God is.
So take a humble step backward, learn a thing or two, and shut your mouths.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe, z’l, made the following statement about the Holocaust that should make people stop and think before they invent reasons why the Holocaust occurred:
“In his writings and discussions on the subject, the Rebbe rejected all theological explanations for the Holocaust. What greater conceit — the Rebbe would say — and what greater heartlessness, can there be than to give a “reason” for the death and torture of millions of innocent men, women and children? Can we presume to assume that an explanation small enough to fit inside the finite bounds of human reason can explain a horror of such magnitude? We can only concede that there are things that lie beyond the finite ken of the human mind. Echoing his father-in-law, the Rebbe would say: It is not my task to justify G-d on this. Only G-d Himself can answer for what He allowed to happen. And the only answer we will accept, said the Rebbe, is the immediate and complete Redemption that will forever banish evil from the face of the earth and bring to light the intrinsic goodness and perfection of G-d’s creation.”
I heard to one of the tapes of R. A.Miller Z’L, somebody asked him ,why gilgul did not mentioned in the Gemora? Hi answer, then just because it did not mentioned in the Gemora, Hi did not going to mention this in the shiur. I think we shouldn’t try to bring down things, which we did not fully understand anyway, more over discus them.
No doubt R’ Ovadia was quoted out of context, or entirely misquoted.
There needs to be a longer pathway from the brain where the thought originates,, to the mouth.
It is no so complicated to understand what rav ovadyah shlita was saying. He didn’t say the the people who died in the holocaust were sinners. Of course they were kedoshim. However he was just saying that their nishomos were those of sinners in previous generations. He probably meant that By being neherag al kidush hashem they were able to atone for their sins thus it was a tremndous nechama for those neshomos. The shomrey emunim says a similar mehalach. That these neshomos were in limbo and couldn’t enter gan eden and through the misa al kiddush hashem they were finally able to enter. (They probably lined up for the zechus to come back to the world to die al kiddush hashem)
Why do people always tajke rav ovadya’s shiurim out of context. Is he not allowed to teach torah without the media (and ywn commentators) jumping all over every word?
one has to realise that these words came from the GADOL HADOAR we shouldnt question what he says this sage knows kol hatorah koulah!
Who cares what hilonim say or think? They don’t belileve in gilgulim, or even in Olam haBah,or that there is a judge of the world.
While one shouldn’t mock a shoteh, one shouldn’t ask him if you need to wear a coat!
i dont think that he is saying anything bad about the people themselves–they could have been gedolim, but the people that were killed were a gilgul of a rasha–nothing they did wrong. then the question is why are people punished for what their neshama did in a previous gilgul
i dont understand what the big deal with his statement is. he is not the first one with this theory it was said dozens of times by many great people in this and last generation.and about causing pain to the reletives, if anything it should be consoling knowing their reletives sins were atoned for!
Ummmm I’m sorry Common sense but a big mouth slams the other person disrespectfully. I’m saying I don’t believe R’ Ovadia said this I still belive he’s a great gadol in his own right (I personally got a slap from him, I’m just saying like Shazam that it was probably taken out of context, like alot of things the Chacham says, by the media. The Asarah Harugei Malchus by the way was due to klal yisrael’s madreigah at that time they were mechaper for the reshaim the same holds true for the holocaust, the gedolim and kedoshim that were niftar then was due to our madreigah at that time and the way for us to be michaper is for people to die al kiddush Hashem. As the Gemara says a fool shouts loud so everyone can hear his words. By the way To eli lev I hear what you are saying.
I am so shocked at YWN for posting such comments about Chacham Ovadia. How dare you people speak about such a great Rav as if he’s a nobody? How dare you! I am appalled!!! But actually not really, this is how the ashkenazim treat the sephardim. With such sinat chinam. And we wonder why mashiachs not here?? Well wake up!!!! Look at these comments I’m so disgusted!!
1) When people that don’t fear Hashem quote a Gadol B’Torah and it sounds off, assume that they are either misunderstanding him or distorting his words (See Avos 1,11 and it’s commentaries).
2) michal – אלו ואלו דברי אלוקים חיים there is room for argument. חז”ל always looked to give explanation for tragedies. I assume that you are aware that the first Beis Hamikdash was destroyed from shichfas damim, gilui arius, and avoda zora and that the second was from sinas chinam. Where do you think that info came from? In defense of the Rebbe, ZECHER TZADIK LIVRACHA, he apparently held that we are not on the madrega to understand the reasoning behind the Shoah. Other Gedolim (in fact most) argue the fact and state that it was due to turning away from the Torah (Reform Judaism) which in fact is supported from the Torah itself (see the klalas).
3. As stated above by others, R. Ovadyia never stated that these people were sinners, rather these souls were gilgulim of sinners. That does not reflect what their status was in this gilgul. His intention, in my humble opinion, was to explain how “in general” there are תקופות in which we see the majority moving away from Torah and punishment coming to the whole. Also, he was probably explaining the connection between the Chet HaEigel and tragedies such as the Shoah (as is implied from the article).
4. As far as Gilgulim, I generally like to stay off the subject. However, it is clear that ALL the Mikubalim and Gedolim that I am familiar with state that EVERYBODY today is a gilgul. You can argue that there is no source in תנ”ך that there are gilgulim, but guess what, there aren’t any sources there for משיח or עולם הבא either. 🙂
May we be זוכה to see the Emesdika Giula!
Pashuteh Yid
“I am troubled by Lo yumsu avos al banim uvanim lo yumsu al avon avosam, ish bcheto yumas. How do innocent people get punished for the actions of earlier generations?”
A gilgul would be the same person (nishama) in a difrent bodey. So it would not be a puneshment for difrent people but the same nishama geting its tafkid done.
Lichvod Pashuteh Yid – You bring out some good questions that need answers. I will try to answer them one by one to the best of my abilities, B”EH.
2) I wasn’t trying to blame the Holocaust on Reform Jews, but rather putting blame on the turning away from Torah that was prevalent at the time. Reform Judaism just gave them (Jews that who were turning away) a direction in which to turn away towards. While I agree that the Religious Yidden at that time as a whole failed to uplift the Torah in the eyes of their brethren, non-the-less, to say Lo Ploog is unfair. Certainly there were Yidden who’s actions by far demonstrated the greatness of being a Torah Yid. If you don’t agree then you must bring condemnation upon our more feeble generation (including yourself). And if you do, then WHAT are YOU doing to make yourself a true example of what a Torah Yid is? Can you honestly state that people hold you in the highest esteem? It’s easy to point fingers at others. It’s easy to say that the frum are to blame for today’s wrongs and for yesterdays wrongs, and that the Torah world is to blame for the Holocaust. However, the reality is that we are all in the same boat. Each one has to place pitiful eyes on others and critical eyes upon oneself. Change starts at home. Each person has to say, “Am I holy? and if not, what can I do about it?”
3) Perhaps I am wrong, but I understand your essential question to be legitimacy of Gilgulim and Tikunim. I sympathize with your concerns, but this is a tradition that has been handed down to us from the chachomim. It is a belief that is excepted by all our gedolim as far as I am aware of. I am not the one for you to speak to concerning this. You’ll need to discuss this with a Talmid Chochum. (If it make you feel better, I personally don’t like talking about gilgulim. I try to keep things down to Earth.)
4) I meant to keep my words short. Of course there are allusions, but direct statements in the Torah, there are none. I also purposely didn’t bring the Rambam because of the controversies that will inevitably come out through quoting him and I wanted to keep it simple.
The most important point at hand is to understand that Rav Ovadia Yosef, shlita statements were misinterpreted by those that most likely weren’t even there. I’m sure if we (or they) would have gone to his lecture our (or their) view would be entirely different.
Pashuteh Yid,
1) As far as gilgulim, I understand your dilemma. As you are surely aware the RAMBAM and the GRA argue on areas that are esoteric, so how can we puny people even think to state an opinion. Our obligation is to except their daas as Emes. That’s all we can do and not worry about the rest. I don’t know about you, but I don’t live my daily life trying to figure out how to have a tikun for my previous gilgul. LOL
2) As far as the Shoah, no one can explain the each and every detail and no one tries to either. It is the general that some try to explain. I personally don’t have any difficulty believing that the Shoah as a whole was the result of Klal Yisrael’s turning away from the Torah. The Torah itself warns of such things. Apparently the Lubavitcher Rebbe, z”l didn’t feel that Klal Yisrael’s backsliding was significant enough to warrant a Holocaust.
3) As far as Reform, it is very difficult to know exactly why it started and took root; mainly because we weren’t around then and therefore can’t truly comprehend what their inner feelings were. We can only rely on what people from that time held or use hypothesis. It’s like trying to understand how anybody could have put their faith in Communism.
Let’s take a look at our present situation. Look how many kids are going off the Derech. I have my own theories why and perhaps you do too. However, when I ask around to those that actually work with these kids their answers are always the same, “It’s hard to say. There is no one reason why. Each case is unique…”.
Who knows what people will say 40-50 years from now. Perhaps they’ll blame you and me! 😉
“It is clear that some of the original reform Jews just wanted to dress more modern like most of us do today without the levush”
Just to point out, the Yiden went out of Mitzraim shlo shinu livushum. The reform wanted just to change that and look where it leads…..
Pashuteh Yid – I was hoping to let you have the last word, but unfortunately your words are not well taken.
1) To say that the generation as a whole were NOT turning away from Judaism is clearly a denial of the historical facts according to all opinions. Yes, the Reform will use a different term and call it a “reform from Traditional Judaism” instead of stating that they went off the derech. This is just semantics. The fact that the vast majority were starting to reject the Torah as we know it is undeniable. If you are suggesting that there is no proof that that was the cause of the Shoah you have the Lubavitcher Rebbe, z”l to back you. However, the fact remains that that generation as a whole were turning away from Judaism. That is clear.
2) I have been monitoring you for some time now and am troubled by your uncanny ability to defend those that do not (or did not) want to except the yoke of Torah and yet in the same breath you are so quick to condemn the frum (especially the the Gedolim). This does not shed good light upon you and I think you should seriously consider that. 🙁
3) Disbelief in gilgulim does not render one pasul. There is certainly who to rely upon to back your believes. However, those that believe in gilgulim equally have who to rely upon such as RASHBI, the RAMBAN, the ARIZAL, the GRA, the BESHT, and the Chofetz Chaim to name a few. Those are not names to laugh at. This is clearly a case of Eilu V’Eilu. I’m sure you’ll agree.
4) Let’s not give in to Yad VaShem’s misguided rhetoric. It is a well known klal that any Jew who dies because he’s a Jew is 1) forgiven of all sins, 2) enters directly to Gan Eiden, and 3) is a Kadosh. This is a belief that is held across the board! To insinuate that Rav Ovadia or any other gadol holds otherwise is nothing less than pure ignorance and insulting!
I hope my comments are clear and taken well.
as a extreme anti medina person i dont understand alot of things about r ovadia such as why only the edia protest shabbos HOWEVER HE IS A TALMID CHOCHEM WITH DAS TORAH AND CHESBONES MANY MAY NOT AGREE OR UNDERSTAND BUT RESPECT HIM SUCH AS I and THE EDIA DO
b”H
With all due respect to Rav Ovadia, I hold with the Rebbe, ztz”l, that it is beyond our capacity and our right to point the finger in regard to why the Shoah occurred. I also hold that while turning away from HaShem because of the Shoah makes Hitler, yemach shemo, a winner, we who did not experience the Shoah – the camps – the whole scenario – are not entitled to judge anyone who because of his or her experiences then turned away and became secular. I often hear the bewilderment of a friend as she quotes some of the former frum girls she met in Auschwitz upon her arrival there, when they said, “You want to know where your relatives are? – Up there, they went up the chimney, that’s all,” in a scoffing manner.
Food for thought though are certain facts that have been touched upon here and some not yet mentioned:
– the assimilation of Jews – even to some extent of some of the supposedly frum – to the point that something really had to give – to prevent a catastrophe (which has since occurred after the Shoah with increased assimilation and intermarriage – another Shoah, if you will, which was not prevented by the Shoah, but was sped up by it even to some extent
– some amoral behaviour due to anti-Semitism, thus perpetuating more anti-Semitism (i.e. partially understandable) – nowadays this is expressed in acts, which rightly some of the rabbonim have referred to as Chillul HaShem – cheating Gentiles with the lame excuse that they are all anti-Semites anyway or that one has to avoid cheating only another Jew.
– disregard for or helplessness on the part of the Jewish population of the fact that the looming world war would be, in the case of Jewish participation, a continuation of the horrendous Chillul HaShem of Jew killing Jew in the name of a secular state against another to an even greater extent than in WWI, which was the beginning of the end. The Chofetz Chaim had already warned about this in regard to the rise of nationalism in Russia and conscription of Jews into the Czar’s army.
However, if one would think that the Shoah kept Jews innocent of this, think again, for Hitler, yemach shemo, and his henchmen, yemach shemam, made sure that their machinery worked via Jews ourselves, yes, by making Jews command, torture and kill other Jews to stay alive at the cost of their very souls in the ghettos, in the camps. The Nazis, yemach shemam, knew how to intimidate, knew how to use the basest instincts in humankind, turned our Torah inside out sometimes, had a child chazan sing “Kel maleh Rachamim” as they murdered Jews alongside, and on and on – enough to make the strongest of us cough up his or her very soul, and then comes someone and speaks for HaShem??????????? Was this not enough??? Apparently not, for there are some right here beAretz, biYerushalayim, who say Ashkenazim are not Jews, but Kuzarim, and that the Shoah took some of them, and… an outrageous view, as if they were just waiting for another Shoah to finish off the rest. Some very sick and dirty things result of a little knowledge of things people do not understand, and the resulting hurt is also a crime against humanity and especially our fellow Jews.
To all those who believe they have the right to play HaShem by offering explanations of whatever ilk – realistic, kabbalistic, etc. – I would remind of two things –
1) from Pirkey Avos – that Shtikah is fence to Chochma.
2) from Hiob 28:28 – that Chochma is Yirat HaShem
and Sur meRa is Bina.
The Lashon hara and Sinas Chinam along with the hurt released by someone’s playing HaShem in regard to this horrendous tragedy indeed constitute Chillul HaShem. When I think that some of our best amongst the survivors have screamed out in their sleep all the rest of their lives (and some are still screaming) at the relived horror of seeing little children and saintly rabbonim and other innocents being murdered al Kiddush HaShem, then this whole thing makes me sick.
So we wonder why we are getting sick of other things? – like this special flu? – We fast, yes, a fast is called.
This is the conventional remedy. Ok. Let’s do it,
but let’s not forget that it is a negative action and a pretty cheap, pretty easy one. How about doing something possible for Klal Yisrael?
How? – Help every Jew, especially here beAretz, keep Shabbat. Let every Chareidi, who normally has guests on Shabbat, invite one normally non-Shomer Shabbat Chayal – one soldier – every Shabbat until he finds that there are no more secular soldiers to be had. Let every Chareidi invite as often as possible another formerly non-Shomer Shabbat guest. Let the rabbonim stage shabbatons, hand out Shabbat kits. Let everyone who has some money help them do it. Let everyone pocket his prejudices and greet every other Jew beSever Panim yafot. That doesn’t cost anything concrete, but it costs an effort that can conquer the world – by overcoming our Yetzer hara – that is stronger than any army, any bomb – even atomic – on the face of the earth.
We’re coming up to Elul. Before we dive into our Selichot, let us be determined to not just beat our breasts in repentence, but to do a few positive things on the side – every day – for our own and for our collective salvation.
Chodesh tov.