Following this week’s kenos in Hebrew University in Yerushalayim against mehadrin bus lines, the women involved are calling for an end to taking, calling for action.
Dozens of women attended the Mount Scopus event, in addition to the curiosity seekers who dropped in to listen to the words of those who dare to challenge the effort to increase mehadrin bus service. Some of the women spoke of their unpleasant experiences on such bus lines. For 24-year-old Edit Cohen, “it is a matter of principle. I will not stand by for this in a democratic society”. For many, it is that simple, for others, it is “chareidi coercion” and for yet others, there is a feeling that there is no need, and one should be permitted to sit alongside one’s spouse on a bus ride.
Perhaps the main speaker was retired Supreme Court Justice Dalia Dorner, who called on the young women to go out into the streets and protest. Dorner explained that “you, the young students can sabotage the entire effort”. She went on to explain that if 15 women get onto a bus and refuse to adhere to the mehadrin guidelines, the bus will no longer be mehadrin. Dorner rejected any attempt to impose segregation on buses, which she insists belong to “all the people”.
She lashed out at the chareidi community, where she insists women do not enjoy equality. She stressed her battle is not with chareidim however, but against discrimination, adding if chareidim want separate buses, then they must find private funding and run private buses.
Rachel Azariya, a member of the Jerusalem City Council stated that it is simply unacceptable, and like always, the weak fall prey; in this case women and children. Together with a number of supporters, she plans to go back to court if the Transportation Ministry committee recommends continue the mehadrin lines, which she feels has no place in today’s modern Israeli society.
(Yechiel Spira – YWN Israel)
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24 Responses
With all the problems Klal Yisroel is facing, my personal opinion is mehadrin bus lines are a chumra we do not need. We are in dire need of achdus, ahavas chinam and kiruv rechokim, while we face down enemies who want to destroy us. I don’t feel that mehadrin buses solve the problem. Perhaps one day b’Ezras Hashem when Klal Yisroel is on a level where the majority are Shomer Mitzvos and recognize H’, then these types of “lifnei m’shuras ha din” should be looked at.
“it is a matter of principle. I will not stand by for this in a democratic society”
May the Ribono Shel Olam appropriately punish these women reshoyim and end their wickedness soon.
>>adding if chareidim want separate buses, then they must find private funding and run private buses.
#2 – You just committed an Aveira d’Oraisa by cursing another Jew who is opposed to a non-mitzvah. I can’t say, because who went up to Shamayim to tell me your din? But as someone who should know better, you might be punished worse than these women, who may be tinokos sh’nishbos.
Well #2 looks like you’ve been severely berated. I won’t join in.
I think that if we chareidim want the mehadrin buses then we should get them. Except, we should let the woman go to the front.
ooooooh.
Have a great Kabolos HaTorah!
Yaakovg – you just don’t get it. What is the odd aveira d’oraisa comapared to the schar one gets from pushing ones chumras down other Yidden’s throats and then cursing them out when they have the nerve to disagree with you. Let us make no mistake about it: separate buses is a chumra pure and simple. It is not normative halacha. That is why the approach of “if you want it, fund it” is so reasonable. Most of the charedim I know in Jerusalem really don’t care about this issue at all. They care that the buses are packed, but for security reasons alone. Like the “Big Event Concert” in New York, this is a few kannoyim running around whipping up fervor. That is not the way normative Torah true Yiddishkeit works.
#7 – It sounds like you agree with me, and you are being sarcastic in the beginning of your message. A suggestion to you: Sarcasm does not come across well in writing (without facial and vocal expression), and is best left out of these comments.
I agree with #6. I never understood how it was tzniyus that I should have to walk down that narrow aisle sometimes touching the men I pass when I ride the Williamsburg bus. I didn’t notice the men looking down as the woman passed by each of the men. I always felt like I was more on display than on a regular bus. It would definatally be mor e tzniyus to have the men in the back as well as it would get rid of the connotations of women in the back.
#5:
When these women come up to beis din shel maileh to receive their verdict, pleading “tinokos sh’nishbos” as you say, will not get them off the hook for publicly going against the Gedolei Yisroel shlitta and attacking Bnei Torah with sheker as:
“chareidi coercion”
and “she lashed out at the chareidi community, where she insists women do not enjoy equality”
so “you, the young students can sabotage the entire effort”
because “it is a matter of principle. I will not stand by for this in a democratic society”
and “which she feels has no place in today’s modern Israeli society”
The women are 100% correct if the chareidim don’t like the service egged provide then take a taxi or open your own service,why force the not-yet religious jews in israel to hate us???
I agree 100% with the women if the chareidim don’t like the service egged provide then take a taxi or start another bus company.(I belive r’moshe sterbuch said this also).Why do we keep giving the not-yet religious yidden reasons to hate us????
As I believe someone mentioned before, it’d make no sense for men to sit in the back because that’d defeat the whole purpose: men cannot/should not be looking at a woman from behind! There are some busses (such as from Jerusalem to Beitar) where the women do get on in the back and even punch their own tickets. Just because you don’t agree with them, doesn’t mean you should make a Chareidi’s life more difficult. Eretz Yisrael is a land for Jews, so let the Jews live there by their Torah!
Yasher koach #13.
There was a generation in Klal Yisroel where they were ovdei avodah zarah, but were victorious in battle, because they had achdus….Was it Achav, or Menashe? I don’t remember.
There was another generation in Klal Yisroel, where they were shomrei Torah and Mitzvos, but lost their battles, because of machlokes and sinas chinom….
Have we learned yet….?
Maran Eliashev and all our other great leaders, HaRav Kanievsky, Liefkowitz, and so on, have all poskened in favor of mehadrin buses.
These people on this site who oppose mixed buses are opposing our great leaders. And they call themselves charedim? What a chillul haShem.
The mehadrin buses are vital to tznius in clal Yisrael. People who fight them are fighting for the yetzer hara…
If you read the original, it states:
She explains there are a growing number of complaints from women who have fallen victim to abuse on buses on which passengers demand they sit in the rear.
Again: complaints from women who have fallen victim to abuse on buses!!!
If these holier-than-thou fellows would behave themselves, then fewer people would mind and even fewer people would support the “anti” crowd.
– Signed by a FFB whose frum senior-citizen mother was manhandled on a Mehadrin bus while trying to help her son come on board with 3 little kids. She had no intention sitting up front and there was no need to physically throw her off the bus.
Yasher koach Avreich Man/16.
Well said.
I recently read a tshuva from the early Yishuv’s in E’Y by no less than Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld zt’l, responding to those who wanted to institute Mehadrin coaches, pressing Rav Sonnenfeld with all the usual ‘taynos’ we see today. His response? “The ikur is – Don’t look around, and if you have a sefer, look into it” But we’re obviously much more heilig than him! Look it up – Shalos u’Tshuvos Shalmos Chaim – pg 200
#19: You completely misread it; it is in fact the precise opposite. Please look it up. Rav Yosef Chaim ztv’l was a big proponent of public separation.
#20: It isn’t “assur” to ride on a mixed bus. Nor is it “assur” per se to walk by the beach during the summer. Yet the Gedolim ztv’l and shlitta are clear that we must take as many steps as attainable to avoid or minimize these types of settings.
That is why the Gedolim support, and always have, mehadrin buses. Not because non-mehadrin buses are “assur” per se.
I think that if the chardeim want there own busses, they should just get the money and do it themselves, the only problem is egged seems to have a monopoly and does not want that happening. There is defentialy some sort of compromise that has to come out but i do not see any of that happening until each side has some respect for the other.I also think that the women should be in front and just put up a mechita so the men cannot see them but I also think that you cannot force this on anyone in a secular society. I guess we will have to see how this all plays out
Charlie Hall:
When you know full well that Maran has said explicitly that he supports mehadrin buses, to ask for responsum that say it is asur to ride a bus is a blatant dodge. It is nothing short of reform rabbi thinking.
You insult your black hat if you have one.
For those who say there is not halahic basis- where do you get this information from?
As far as I see it, there are two main issues of non-mehadrin lines.
1) the Issur for a man to look at a women
2) the issur for a man(or women) to walk/sit between two women of the opposite gender.
Ok, so the 1st one can be solved by the man not looking up from his Sefer.
But what about the 2nd issur? How else can a man not be over on this issur on a non-mehadrin line? Or is our generation so low, that so many of us just dont care about this Mitzvah?
I understand the rebbeim in America being matir on this subject(as they rule for an entirely different population, with entirely different circumstnaces), but if it can be prevented- as it can in Israel- then should it not be prevented? Can we follow a psak that was given for one community if another community is so different than the first?
The shavous edition of Mispacha had a beautiful article about the sons of Rav Moshe Feinstein, ZTL. Rav Reuven was asked if his fathers psaks can be used across the board. He responded(this is not a direct quote) that each person needs to ask his own rav and own psak and that what his father wrote in his responum were purely so people could see his logic- not an overall heter or chumra for the entire world.
I think this is an important lesson for all of us, when it comes to any psak we hear about.
Chaveirim- nice try, but there’s NOTHING to misread. It’s a one sentence long tshuva written in response to a page and a half long shaila, trying to convince him to pasken in favor of separate buses. I quoted the ENTIRE tshuva in my previous post. Why don’t you look it up next time, instead of making a fool out of yourself pretending that you are such a great expert on Rav Sonnenfeld’s zt”l opinion? I’m telling you what he wrote. In fact since you claim to be so familiar with the sefer, why don’t you post the next shaila on page 201, so we can all see if you really looked it up or not. I won’t hold my breath.
Additionally, as an self-professed expert on the opinions of “Gedolim” both living and dead, it seems odd that you haven’t been informed about the fact that the “Gedolim” would rather that you ride on a normal bus like the Chazon Ish did, than have you go on the internet. Since you do whatever the gedolim say,even if it’s not “assur per se” I hope that this will be the last time we hear from you. But I won’t hold my breath about that either.
To create a new company is almost impossible. Egged BOUGHT the lines from the city- that means no other bus company can have the same routes as Egged. They can travel on part of the routes, but cannot follow the exact route- Now how that would work for trying to get through Geulah or other areas- I’m just not sure.
Unless egged wants to start a sub-company for mehadrin only lines- but they might as well just keep any Alpeh line a mehadrin line and be done with it.