18 Responses

1. There is an ocean of evidence that rent control reduces the availability of housing. But don’t let a little bit of economics get in the way of politics.

   By the way, what happened to the decree fixing the dollar/shekel exchange rate?

   Finally, in response to a number of unfortunate incidents that left several avreichim injured, the Vaad has decreed that gravity in Sorotzkin and Menachem Meishiv will now have a force of 8.5 N/kg.

2. Please send me the GPS coordinates of your ocean of evidence. The availability of apartments on Sorotzkin is at an all-time high.

   With regard to the exchange rate; due to the recovery of the dollar, renters can now work out a deal with their landlords that is best for both parties.

   For the record, gravity remains unchanged. And oh, you’re still welcome to come and live in one of the greatest places in Yerushalayim.

3. dd,

   That’s laughable, sorry for enjoying the reading at your expense. The availability of apartments has never been better. But don’t let a little bit of reality get in the way of knee-jerk sarcasm. 🙂

4. Mr Sorotzkin Resident,

   The GPS coordinates of the ocean of evidence is Google Scholar. It lists 4030 academic articles since 2000 with the exact phrase “rent control”.

   As a starting point, try “A Review of Empirical Evidence on the Costs and Benefits of Rent Control” published in the Swedish Economic Policy Review (2003) which surveys roughly 500 studies.

   For a single highly regarded study, try the American Economic Review article by Glaeser and Luttmer (2003).

   As an extreme example, you may be aware that Robert Mugabe has not been very successful in trying to legislate away the laws of economics.

5. As a renter on Sarotzkin, all i can say is that the vaad has been a great success! All the naysayers have been proven wrong. the vaad has kept prices fair (i have personaly gained from this), they also have stopped many pepole from being thrown out of their appartments.

   dd Sarotzkin has not lost any appartment for rent, on the contrary it keeps on supplying more! This is because the vaad did not push prices down, they just didn’t allow crazy price hikes!

6. From my experience the vaad has done a great job! keep it going guys!

7. Fair market practices generally refer to untainted laws of supply and demand. That wold be a contradiction to the first item, preventing rents from rising. The only way that the two can be reconciled is if the landlords were using unfair practices and unionizing into a monopoly and refusing to rent even if it means their losing money. Based on the statement by “sorotzkin resident” the whole thing is irrelevant since there is a glut of available apartments anyhow and the prices wold be going down with or without intervention.

8. As a sorotzkin resident I can say that the Vaad is made up of a few egotistical, emotionally needy avraichim who feel the need to try to control other people’s lives to make themselves feel important. Their computer system is inaccurate due to the fact that no one personally inspects the apartments. They rely on the testimony of the caller who is biased in one way or another. The residents of Sorotzkin laugh at the Vaad and make deals with the Baalai dira to go around the Vaad. I have been personally messed up by the Vaad on a few apartments for myself. I actually called them to do the right thing only to find they refused to help and blacklisted apartments for no reason. Other people took each apartment before I could. Btw, most of the Rabbonim that originally signed on to the Sorotzkin Vaad retracted their Haskama. Anyone who wants to move here, It’s great! We love it! But ignore the Vaad. Don’t make these pathetic men feel important. And don’t worry, I know plenty of people who went against the Vaad and NOTHING happened to them.

9. To the 8th Poster:

   I’m actually quite friendly with the Vaad members and they are a great bunch of motivated people who have a desire to ease the burden kollel families face.

   Often, their jobs are made harder by people like you feel an emotional need to circumvent and hamper a genuine, halachically backed, and community effort to keep prices within reason.

   If you read the letter in your mailbox, the Vaad will never force a tenant out of their apartment even if the landlord is unwilling to adjust the price. Hence, you stand only to gain not to lose!

   The Vaad never discloses the information it receives and anyone who ‘took’ your apartment did so unrelated to the Vaad perhaps through an unscrupulous agent looking to ink a deal.

   The Rabbanim have not retracted for the record, and you can obtain their letters by calling the Vaad.

   Additionally, the Vaad generally likes to visit apartments it supervises to ensure accuracy and to ascertain the real conditions at hand.

   Your under the table dealing has clearly not hurt the Vaad as the current market attests to. You only have hurt yourself – as you have to pay considerably more then you should be!

   With a little patience and ‘mentchlichkeit’, you still can see what the Vaad has done for the 230 of your neighbors.

   Remember, D’racheha Darchei Noam.

10. Wow, #8, if you’re a renter, you’re biting off your nose to spite your face, and truly, truly out of touch with what is going on. The comments reflect a lot of emotional baggage, and no connection to the facts on the ground.

    But something tells me perhaps you’re not a renter…

11. Sorotzkin deweller,

    Lets get things straight, the vaad system is pretty accurate as they speak to both the tenants and the landlords, and they therefor hear both sides of the coin. For your info they usally exept the landlords version, when their is a great diffrence in the versions then they go down to see the appartments.

    The reason that the vaad does not inspect every appartment is due to the lack of vonulteers (who are all avreichim)time, instead of sitting there hackicg against them, why dont you call to help, they could do with someone who passionately believes in inspecting diros!

    Not one of the rabonim who backed the vaad has stepped down, they all support it, allthough they refuse to get involved in casses on a daily bases, as they wrote in the orrigional letter that they rely of the askonim dealing with the vaad to do the job according to their guidlines.
    Its understandible that the rabonim don’t have the time to get invovled in non hallachical cases that can take hours to deal with.

    I am unsure how you got “messed up” by the vaad – other pepole got the appartment before you,- that may be becayse “other pepole” had waited for the appartment before you. More so, no one claimed that the vaad are magicians, not everything can always satisfy all parties, however they are doing their best, and have succeeded greatly, were other have not!

    Lets face facts, since the vaads inception, sarotzkin price were not raised dramatically(the vaad allow for a yearly increas in prices in accordence with there proffesional advise). Compare it to any other neibouring area and see the facts!

    So please stop your criticism, and try and help the more needy in our kehilloh!!!

12. As I leave my comments, I am concerned, lest I contribute to rising prices, but I have to say that, while living on Sorotzkin and paying rent, it doesn’t really make sense to me. Nobody asked anyone to live on Sorotzkin; if you want to live there, pay what they are asking for. Guess what? If people stop living there because they can’t afford it, then the prices are going to go down. It’s happened to many an expensive neighborhood- things get too expensive, people move out, and it starts all over again.

    The funny thing is that the standard of living on Sorotzkin is very high. So, one can argue that before you force the landlords to reduce the rent, one should look at their own expenditures and see if they can do something to make if more affordable for themselves. Perhaps less Bugaboos, flying to America three or four times a year, or something else. The case for doing this before forcing the landlords to lower the rent is also aided by the fact that many of the landlords are poor, while many of the renters ARE NOT. And if they are, really, perhaps they should consider living somewhere within their means. It doesn’t make sense that just because they decide to live there, people should be able to force their way in.

    Another thing. A very likely reason there are many available apartments now is that, unfortunately, we are in a recession, and less people are coming, because, as I said, apartments here are available. Last year, and I know from experience because I was searching for an apartment, the prices were as high as ever, with all sorts of loopholes, like tying the rent to the dollar at 4.0 when the rate was 3.2.

    The last, very ironic thing. Many Chashuv families from Sorotzin moved out to places like Neve Yaakov, and rent out their apartments here to supplement their (very meager) income. So what we do is take away a legitimate source of income. But of course, when they come knocking on the door collecting for these people we’ll give. With an open heart.

    Oh, another thing. Notice the absence of R’ Elyashiv, the posek hador. Why don’t you go ask him what his halachic opinion is about this?

    So let’s stop the propaganda, live in places that we can afford, not wreck neighborhoods with our western, materialistic lifestyles that we want to be able to live at bargain prices, and let people live. And I hope you all find apartments in neighborhoods that are mat’im for you, and that you can afford, and have much hatzlacha there.

    (And why can’t we put together a Vaad for something spiritual, and not about money?)

    Have a Great Shabbos. Just try not to walk outside between the hours of two and five, because the Chashuva mishpachos of the poor American talmidei chachamim are congregating.

13. LOL! The Vaad has succeeded in helping hundreds…… Bernard Madoff was much more “successful”! He “succeeded” in the theft of 65 billion! the Vaad- just a few hundred thousand…….
    Success shows nothing regarding being right or wrong! The Vaad “succeeded” in saving hundreds of American young couples a few hundred dollars a month, by stealing it from it’s rightfull Israeli owners who are forced to rent out $450,000 apartments for a measly $800.00 per month!
    Shame on you! If you cannot pay the rent in Yerushalayim, go back to America!

14. #12
    First of all their are 230 families renting on sarotskin, and their are mayby 30 or so Bugaboos. The vast majority of renters do not “live it up” like you make it.
    It is the minority who live it up and it is them who were pushing prices up. Many choshuve yungerliet could not afford to stay in sarotzkin due to this and therefore the Vaad was opened.
    Also many pepole get bugaboos as presents etc, however they may not be able to afford to “live it up”.

    I heard from Reb Ganz that Reb Eliyashiv holds that the vaad is both viable in halacha and hashkofo, however he said that it could only be set up in each individule area, as per the need.

    The reason the vaad set the dollar rate at 4, was according to the pesak of their rabbonim, who felt that the falling dollar justified baalei
    diros rising the price as they live in shekel, therefore the vaad set the price at 4, so in the event that the dollar goes up – as it has -, the price would not stay inflated.

    If their would be anywere else for a chutznik to move to, and the prices would not rise in the coming years then you may be right. However this is not the case, look at ramat eshkol as soon as chuznikim moved their the prices went up to higher the the other areas, the same is happening in ramot, and nevie yakkov, (although not as high as ramat eshkol, give it a year or two – if the trend continues!.
    Basically prices are being gauged due to lack of availibility, and sarotzkin does not cost so much becuase its a better area, only because their is no were else to go.
    This is price guaging, to which the rabonnim held that something must be done. Their are several teshuvos in the achronim that disscus this ie. in post war america, were landlords could gauge prices due to lack of avalibility, and they paskend that this is osur etc.

    #13
    Read the artical, all the gedolim agreed that its the right thing to do, and Reb Mendle Shafran who is a choshen mishpot dayan (in case you don’t know that means that this kind of thing, is his field) gave a shiur proving this!!!

    Also their are virtualy no baalei diros (yes, i know their are eceptions) who brought there appartments for investments in sarotskin, most either have them beyerusha, or moved to other areas (and the vast majority was not out of poverty), more so the vaad prices are by no means low, they just steadied the market and allowed room for the renters to have a voice!

15. Sarotskin- Listen, I call it Sorotzkin, but to each their own. I heard from R’ Nochum that R’ Elyashiv holds it is assur, but that is besides the point. I also heard from R’ Yitzchak Berkowitz the following: of course we believe in free market principles, supply and demand. And so what you call price gouging, which I call heavy demand to live in Sorotzkin, shouldn’t be a problem. The reason why HE did his vaad in the Murchevet, as he stated at the Ramat Eshkol meeting for THEIR vaad, was because, as the price became more expensive, the style of the neighborhood was changing. And not for the better. They started seeing that the type of avreich that could afford the higher prices there was not the type they wanted; rather, and this is a paraphrasa “avreichim with rental cars and strollers”. So they unionized, which is also a perfectly legitimate free market tool. But there is one very important distinction: they feel that the landlords are halachically allowed to charge what demand dictates. The union can fight them. But Rabbi Berkowitz was very clear (and he’s no slouch in Choshen Mishpat either) that, were this just about money, they would have never made a Vaad, because Baalei Diros are entitled to get market rates.

    But like I said, I don’t want to do he said/he said. So let me expand on some of my points. I don’t, as you write, think that most, or even many, of the families on Sorotzkin are “living it up”. That seems to insinuate that they don’t learn, and are partying, or something like that. I think that the families are wonderful. However, even though I never counted the Bugaboos, and I too know people who got them as a present, I AGAIN maintain that the standard of living is very high. There is an overwhelmingly large amount of families from well to do, or even very wealthy backgrounds. That is not a “taana”, it is just a fact. And those families are used to a very high standard of living. I just find it ironic, because many of those families are complaining. And I know, because I heard it myself from them. So I still maintain, cut your own expenses before you try to cut their income.

    Second, you say people didn’t buy their apartments here for an investment. Perhaps. But I will say this, knowing it as a fact, as I wrote in my previous post. Many families had moved out, because there had been a “michraz” and they were able to buy cheap apartments in Shuafat. And THEY ARE renting out for the income, and THEY ARE poor. So it is hurting them.

    Third, like I said, it is so interesting that it is things like money that galvanize the community to form a Vaad. Like a very chashuva Israeli Talmid Chacham in the community said “Why don’t they do something about Tznius?” And someone else said “They come in, bring their western values, change the entire appearance of the neighborhood. WE DON’T WANT THEM, and then they go and tell us to lower the rent?

    Another thing I don’t understand. They saved hundreds of thousands, or so they claim. How many more hundreds of thousands did the value of apartments go down because of the reduced rent income?

    So you claim that in every American neighborhood the prices eventually rise. Indeed, it does seem to be a problem. But you know, I haven’t seen anyone making price vaadim in Flatbush, Far Rockaway, Toronto, or any of the other frum areas where people live. People can’t afford to live there, so their moving elsewhere. Everyone knows that the Brisker Kollel was looking to move, and get apartments for the guys. What would be wrong with that? Do that, and then watch how much the prices go down. But it won’t work. Because people just want to live here. And like I said, they feel entitled to live here, so they cry about the high rents.

    Another problem, in my opinion, with the vaad. The Americans in Sorotzkin, while staying longer than in many other neighborhoods, usually move back to America. So they are talking about five, six, seven or so years of high rent. Indeed, a lot of money. The Israelis live here forever. So for our short term purposes, we mess them up in the long term. Oh, and R’ Yaakov Friedman’s yeshiva moved the whole kollel to Beitar, so it can be done. The chassidim are opening up all over the country. The Israelis don’t buy apartments for their kids in Yerushalayim any more, because they can’t afford it. They didn’t try to make a vaad about it. Instead, they built Kiryat Sefer. Think about that.

    So I just want to recap, to be clear. I believe that a union is FINE, but it’s a free market tool, not a halachic issue. If you’re doing it because you want to keep the chashuv, often less financially well off people in, and that is why you chose to unionize, as in the Murchevet, kol hakavod. If you are doing it because of money, you’re entitled, but do me a favor, don’t make this into a holy war. Leave out price gouging, letters from the gedolim, threats of Cherem, and just say “Guys, we want to get together and save some money”. And see if you have the collective power to make the union. I want to stress again, Rabbi Berkowitz said HE NEVER WOULD HAVE DONE IT IF IT WAS JUST ABOUT MONEY. So let’s be honest to ourselves about why we want to do this. No one will blame you if you just want to save some money. But don’t make it a holy thing. I have much more to say,but when there’s “drara dememona” I’m not going to convince anyone. And believe me, I pay a decent amount for rent, but I remember when I moved here, I made the choice, knowing it was a lot of money and wanting to do it anyway. No one stuck a gun to my head. No one is sticking one to yours either.

16. I rented a two bedroom apartment on Sorotskin for $1100, i rented this apartment because i could not find any apartments for a non-inflated price anywhere! A year latter, my Baal Dira wanted to go up to $1800. I had no where to go, as there were no available apartments anywhere, and i could not afford the price. I then turned to the Vaad who very professionally dealt with my problem. They spoke to my Baal Dira, and he agreed to only go up to $1250. Even my Baal Dira admitted that they had dealt with him in a professional manner, although he obviously would have liked to go up more, he felt that they hadn’t exaggerated there price to be to low, and he therefore complied with them. Aside from my story i know of a least two other such stories that the Vaad had helped in my building.
    I just hope they keep up the good work!

17. First let me start by thanking all dedicated people who are involved with the vaad,who have no personal gain in this besides for helping yungerleit at the expense of ther time,energy,and effort.
    The fact is that todayrenters and and baal diras know there is someone to reckon with if they try to make an unjustifiable rental conditions,YES i said UNJUSTAFIABLE rental conditions.

18. Yossi – Reb Ganz went into Reb Eliyashiv four times, to discuss the in and outs of specifically the Unsdorf and Romema Vaad. I doubt that Reb Nochum did that, because he has no reason to discus those particular Vaadim, and therefore he can not know Reb Eliyashivs opinion about these Vaadim. Every Vaad was set up in its own way, the halachical differences can be enormous, the way the Unsdorf Vaad was set up was halachicly viable, and they have yet to hear a halachicl argument against it.

    As far as what Rabbi Berkovitz felt, the Rabbonim in Unsdorf felt the same, and for similar reasons opened their Vaad. One of the Rabbonim even joked about it that they should name it Vaad hatznius”! More so Rabbi Berkovits supported the setup of other Vaadim i.e., the one on Ponim Meiros, I’m sure he knew what he was supporting.
    However the money issue was also part of the concern of the Rabbonim, contrary to what you wrote, there is much discussion in Chazal about these issues. I.e. in Sukkah (34b) the Gemara quotes Shmuel as threatening the sellers of arba minim to keep their prices down, although the Mishna paskens that you need three whole hadasim – which Rashi explains that they wanted to raise because of the lack of whole hadasim, yes supply and demand, Shmuel told them if they don’t keep there prices low he will pasken that you don’t need even one whole hadas !
    According to many, the above gemoras sevora, that raising prices to exorbitance, applies to any basic need that the public needs.

    I will not go through every mare mokom, however ill quote the Chasam Sofer in his droshos, were he curses those who raise rental prices allowing those who cannot afford it, no place to rent in town!

    More so the Imrei yYosher (Reb Meir Arik) discusses the torah view about raising rent when there is a lack of apartments, i.e., the price is set because of the lack etc. He concludes that Chazal would have made a takono in such circumstances and therefore if a country creates a rent control law, the din is dina demalchusa dina.

    Also to raise rental prices, to much more then the market price may be an issur deoraiso, according to many shitos, although “ein oinoa bekarkaois”, this apply only to “bittul mekach” but their still would be an issur (see Ramban al Hatorah parshas behar and so on).

    So on and so forth, there is plenty discussion about this in torah sources, and yes money is an issue, and sometimes its time to do something about it!

    The amount of baalei diros that moved in order to rent out there apartments is in my estimation (and yes I have were to base my facts on) is less then ten, and amongst them you will find many who own both apartments. More so the Vaad has not lowered prices, and has even allowed several price rises, which would still make it profitable for those Baalei Dira.

    Why don’t they do anything about tzinius? well as I said the Vaad was set up with this in mind, albeit a little late for what had already happened, but what it could save it did (i.e., older yungerleit from moving out).
    But if there would be something else to do, of course it would have been done, unfortunately, there is not so much to do that would really make a difference.

    The Vaad has ONLY affected rental price in sarotskin, buying prices rose tremendously since the Vaad opened! This also proves that sarotskin is not an area that people buy for an investment, because if it was the Vaad would have affected the buying market too.

    One cannot expect an entire community of people to move out of a town were they have come to every day to learn. Brisker kollel did not move out after all, nor did brisk, mir, RTK, and the numerous other mosdos that chuztnikim learn in. So you want all the talmidim to move away from them?!?!?!?!

    “They didn’t try to make a Vaad about it. Instead, they built Kiryat Sefer.”, first of all if we had such an option it may have happened but we don’t. Second of all, yes they did make a vaad, Reb Aron Leib Shteinman set up a Vaad in Pardas Katz, Benei Brak, under the leadership of Reb Yehuda Sillman, about one and a half years ago. Unfortunately it did not last for more than a half a year. As it happens to be according to the frum media, there are more plans in the pipeline from Rav Sillman!

    Although you may think that it’s no reason “just because of money” to get all the Gedolim and Rabbonim to sign letters. But all those Gedolim and Rabbonim who signed obviously thought otherwise! I was also there by several deroshos of Rabbonim etc which supported the Vaadim, and when discussing the Vaadim as a whole, they most certainly meant “the money part”!

    One thing I’ll agree I doubt were going to convince any one by writing our opinions here, and that there’s plenty more to write.