HaGaon HaRav Dov Landau delivered a shiur on Wednesday at Yeshivas Beit Shemaya, a Sephardi yeshivah in Bnei Brak.
After the shiur, the Rosh Yeshivah spoke about the issue of the recruitment of bnei yeshivos. Sephardi Roshei Yeshivos and Rabbanim are especially concerned about the effect of increased IDF recruitment in the Chareidi sector since it is known that more Sephardi bochurim choose to serve in the army than Ashkenazim.
HaRav Landau addressed this fact, saying to the bochurim: “You must be mechazeik and not give in to them. You should know that many of those who didn’t withstand the nisayon and were drafted later regretted it and understood that Torah is the ikar and the only guarantee to continuing our lives here as the Am Segulah.”
HaRav Landua explained that unlike in the past, when yeshivos were mainly intended to produce Gedolei Torah, today, the goal of yeshivos is also to preserve Yiddishkeit. “Since we’re surrounded by secular society, the yeshivos ensure that we’ll remain Shomer Torah u’mitzvos,” the Rosh Yeshivah said.
“The reality today is whoever isn’t in yeshivah, in an atmosphere of yeshivah, the risk to ruchniyas is very great,” the Rosh Yeshivah said. “It’s almost impossible for some who doesn’t learn in yeshivah to remain a proper Shomer Torah u’mitzovos.”
“There are two religions here in this country,” the Rosh Yeshivah continued. “There’s a religion called Tzionut (Zionism) that wants to establish a new nation. There’s another trend in recent years of what is called liberalization, progressivism. It has turned into a religion. And whoever has a religion, it supersedes everything else.”
The Rosh Yeshivah continued by saying that although Chareidim live in Eretz Yisrael and even participate in the government, “we never accepted the religion of Zionism. And of course, we never accepted the religion of liberalization.”
“You need to know – the central democratic right of each person is to adhere to his emunah. And it’s forbidden to harm this democratic right. And what the state is trying to do – via the melting pot of the IDF – is contrary to the most basic right of democracy. No other democratic country in the world tries to sculpt the nation according to its religion. Part of the way they do it is through the IDF – the education officer – which doesn’t exist in any other army in the world.”
“Another issue they speak about in recent years is ‘carrying the burden equally,'” the Rosh Yeshivah continued. “This is a new idea that never existed before. This is also contrary to democracy and a false idea. I want to read something to you from the Charter of the UN that speaks about the establishment of the state. ‘Each person must be able to enjoy his basic rights – freedom of religion, of language, of speech, and education.'”
“The fact that they want to recruit everyone is contrary to this principle. It’s written explicitly that it’s forbidden to harm anyone’s religious rights.”
The Rosh Yeshivah continued by saying that even the units that the IDF is establishing for Chareidim pose great risks to ruchniyus and the army cannot be counted on to keep its promises.
“Hakadosh Baruch should give you the koach to withstand this nisayon,” the Rosh Yeshivah concluded.
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26 Responses
In America it’s separation from state and religion and that means that religion is first to state, but in Israel state is over religion and that means state is first and then religion
It’s fascinating to see a Chareidi leader use concepts like democracy, freedom of religion, the UN Charter, and the like to support his position that Chareidim should be exempt from service. How about some Torah sources – things like V’ahavta l’Reiacha Kamocha, Kol Yisrael Areivim Zeh loZeh, Imo Anochi b’Tara, and Vachai Achicha Imach? Or the big one – Pikuach Nefesh?
Chareidi rabbinic leaders clearly have learned more Torah than I ever have – why don’t they put out a well-reasoned, Torah-sourced, explanation of their position and why the above don’t apply to them and their followers?
an Israeli Yid
This is sloppy and irresponsible reporting. reread the article on Kikar Hashabbat were you sourced this from, and fix up the mess. Hint: Rav Yehoshua Eichenstein… Good luck!
Oddly enough he omitted to mention the 1st Amendment Freedom of Religion in USA, & also forgot to mention, that mention that President Donald Trump שליט”א announced during Corona, that all Houses of Worship, are essential necessities, more so than liquor stores, and must be allowed to reopen immediately, & how he would make Hell for any governor opposing reopening of Houses of Worship.
Ah the Gedolim on the bottom of the yeshiva world comments have spoken!!
Ppl like an Israeli yid do not realize that it is forbidden for a Ben Torah to be in the atmosphere of kefira and tumah that is the idf
anIsraeliZionist:
He’s speaking “liShitasam”, showing how the wicked Zionists who claim to be “Democratic” are anything but that when it comes to Chareidim.
@anIsraeliYid
You need to back up your arguments.
Clearly, you don’t understand how Da’as Torah works.
Why would you think that pep talks to teenagers are poor substitutes for comprehensive, tightly reasoned, and scholarly treatments (in writing)?
@anIsraeliYid
you asked:
“why don’t they put out a well-reasoned, Torah-sourced, explanation of their position and why the above don’t apply to [any Yid who keeps Torah]”
And, the answer is that it has already been published as the well known sefer “Vayoel Moshe” by the Satmar Rebbe.
Of course there have been no published “well-reasoned, Torah-sourced, explanation” by the amharutzim who push zionism by taking random statements of chazal out of context and think “am yisrael (sic) chai” is anything but a Carlebach song.
Where it says “love your fellow like yourself” that’s going on a person who intent is to keep all the Torah and emunah, where it says all Jews are “arevim” that also is talking about not doing bad deeds, where it says “I am with in his pain” that’s is talking about God hearing praying, where it says “your brother should live with you” that is also going on a totally different story,
There is a story of somebody asking the maggid how he makes such good parables and so he took him to a place of target practice and saw how each arrow hit the target exactly and so he says the best shooter, but them he saw the person painting the target around the arrow shot and then he understood, first I have the target then I paint the parable, your making things from the Torah with your target painted after you shot the arrow
Interesting. So our mosdos are doing such a poor job that our Talmidim must stay within their protection indefinitely in order to remain Shomrei Torah uMitzvos. Got it. Hmmmmm.
There are thousands of frum bochurim who go to the army. Are they so different because some of them wear different style yarmulkes? It’s hard not to feel like we really are shnoring here and then making excuses for it
@somejewiknow:
Surely you are aware that the Rabbonim shlita who guide Degel HaTorah, Agudah, and Shas for the past 50 years have never accepted the arguments of VaYoel Moshe? Surely you are aware that Rav Yoel wrote VaYoel Moshe in 1961 as a REJECTION of Agudah?
And that Agudah (as well as all the Gedolim who guide today’s haredi parties) have firmly rejected its arguments for the past 65 years?
So, we STILL don’t have an answer to @anIsraeliYid as to why the Rabbonim representing the Degel, Shas, and Agudah position have never published a well-reasoned, comprehensive argument.
And no less of a person that הרב מרדכי נויגרשל , the primary spokesperson in EY for Da’as Torah, acknowledges in a public lecture on the topic that he has no idea what their argument actually is!!
Google הרב מרדכי נויגרשל and גיוס בני ישיבה and listen to his presentation, where he tells lots of stories and then ultimately acknowledges that he has no idea what the actual argument is.
And BTW, many such presentations have been made by Dati Leumi Rabbonim, both in writing and in comprehensive shiurim that are widely available.
@lbj – “an atmosphere of kfira and tumah” – don’t make me laugh. You have no idea of what the “atmosphere” in the army is for Bnei Yeshiva. Do you know that my sons’ roshei yeshiva regularly came to visit them and their friends on base during their service? While they could not go into active battle zones, they made and continue to make a point of staying in touch and giving chizuk to their talmidim during their service – with the active cooperation of the army. There is no reason Chareidim could not do the same thing.
@HaKatan (and I like your nickname for me – I am indeed a Zionist, and a proud one) – he is giving a Shiur to Bnei Yeshiva, not a lecture to Chavrei Knesset. Only citing the sources and principles he did in a Shiur – or even citing them as the main justification for his position – is not what I’d expect from a Rosh Yeshiva used to getting into every Rashba, Ktzos, and Rav Chaim on a sugya. He’s speaking to Bnei Yeshiva about a position he claims is Torah-based – so he should back it up with Torah sources!
@Shlomo 2 – I am not a Rosh Yeshiva giving a Shiur to Bachurim who presumably spend hours a day learning b’iyun, and have the ability to follow along in a Pilpul Shiur – the one who gave this lecture is. The context was a Shiur in Yeshiva, not a street rally – and on an issue as important as this one, I’d expect a basis in Halacha, with the necessary support from different Gemaras, Rishonim, and Achronim to be his sources, and not concepts that come from what the Yeshiva velt often calls “chochmas yevanis”.
@somejewiknow – did you ever learn Vayoel Moshe? Based on the Satmar Rav’s (ZT”L) shita, they should be striving to have as little to do with the State as possible – they should not be voting, serving in the Knesset, or accepting any government funding. The lecturer and his followers clearly do so, and therefore clearly do not agree with what is written in Vayoel Moshe. They need to come up with some other reasoning. As to well-reasoned and sourced articles on why Bnei Torah should serve – you can easily find the write up on this subject by Rav Lichtenstein ZT”L on line – and it’s even in English. Agree or disagree – there’s no ameratzus there…
@. (Not sure how you got only a dot as a name, but whatever) – you are defining Klal Yisrael down by excluding anyone who is not like you – a perfect example of what R’ Yonassan Rosenbloom called “diminished Klal Yisrael consciousness” by Chareidim in an article 10-15 years ago. Every single Pasuk or Ma’amar I quoted is used I’m other contexts to support the concept of responsibility for one’s fellow Jew, even if in its original context that’s not precisely the meaning. What’s next – when someone who doesn’t keep 90 minutes after Shkiya is in danger, you’re not going to help him since he’s not keeping your shita? If he follows Rav Moshe ZT”L and drinks Chalav Stam, he’s not worthy of protection?
@Tex and @Stahm a Yid – valid points. It is important to point out what the facts are rather than allow those who create a grotesque caricature of what the army is to use that caricature as the base of their argument.
an Israeli Yid
@Shlomo 2
The original question was not about Agudah, rather what is the “well reasoned Torah-sourced” publication rejecting the zionist army.
If you are looking for the Agudah’s position specifically, you can read “Biyos Hazman” by rav Reuven Grazovky z”tzl
Should the IDF not defend haredi kehillot because the yeshiva students guarantee no terror attacks? Why the article complaining a released terrorist is working in a haredi neighborhood. Don’t the yeahivot mean its no threat.
Does any of this apply to the guys not learning? I see haredim in my yishuv visiting to do jeeping all the time. Nothing in halacha exempts non learners so why aren’t haredi rabbis demanding they enlist?
@somejewiknow – can you point me to where it would be possible to obtain that sefer, whether in print or on line? I clearly have my view – but I would want to better understand the view of the other side.
As an aside – the fact that one is not Zionist does not exempt one from participating in protecting one’s fellow Jews when they are in physical danger. It is important to separate between following “Zionism”, which I can understand many disagree with, and joining the army to protect Jews who are in immediate danger. I’d be very interested in how Rav Reuven Grozovsky addresses this difference, particularly given that until 1978 (well after his time), most Chareidim did, in fact, serve in the IDF.
an Israeli Yid
@anIsraeliYid:
Regarding my first comment, see Poe’s Law.
@somejewiknow:
Thank you for the reference to בעיות הזמן, written in NY 70 years ago.
How could you explain that Israel’s primary spokesperson for the Gedolim, Rav Neugerscholl, would not have known what you know?
He said he had no idea what their actual arguments were.
Was he lying?
@anIsraeliYid
בעיות הזמן is available online on Hebrewbooks.
It argues that it’s forbidden to participate in the Medinah in any manner shape or form, which has most certainly not been the position of those who guide the Degel, Agudah, and Shas political parties.
For more on this, see THE TORAH DISCUSSION FORUM prepared by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim and their comments to KESUVOS 111 and the Three Oaths, which contrasts the Agudah position with the one espoused in בעיות הזמן.
@Shlomo2 – my apologies re: you’re first comment – I missed your true intent. And my thanks for the pointer as to where to find the Sefer in question – which, based on your description, sounds more aligned with the views of the Satmar Rav than with those of the historic Agudah.
an Israeli Yid
the speech was given by rav yehoshua eichenstein, not rav landou
@Shlomo2 – thank you – I was able to find it and read parts of it. You are correct in that it espouses a position contrary to that described by @somejewiknow – it is based on the premise that the State is to be avoided except where that’s impossible, which would include taking funds from it to support Yeshivos and Kolelim. As such, it is not relevant to the positions of Degel, Aguda, or Shas, which fully participate in elections and have as their primary purpose the direction of funds to their institutions and constituents.
So, to get back to my original point – is there any well-reasoned written explanation for why their followers should be exempt from protecting their fellow Jews, given their other positions on interaction with the Israeli State? I have yet to see anything like this.
an Israeli Yid
Now that they are done with the gut
…. Before the Holocaust a rabbi once said that the mikva can make from a goy a Jew, but it can also make from Jew a goy, Torah in the Israel army is Poison to wounds, if your going there your better without torah, Zionism make a Jew into a goy, is as simple that
@anIsraeliYid:
Rav Neugerscholl is the Israeli public face for Degel etc Da’as Torah.
Google his hebrew talk given in Ramat Beit Shemesh and you will hear that he as well cannot say what their rationale is and can only speculate, much like the commentators here!
@Shlomo 2 – I don’t need to Google it – I heard it myself. It was given in the Gra shul several months ago, and was shocking in its blithe dismissal of any view that opposed that of Chareidi leadership – while failing to provide any Torah- or Halacha-based backing for the Chareidi position. The lack of substance to the position taken is one of the reasons I don’t hesitate to call the hypocrisy and non-Torah basis of the position out.
an Israeli Yid