28 Responses

1. It was a terrible chutzpa for these bochorim to violate the instructions of their Roshei Yeshivas. This expulsion needs to serve as an example for anyone else having even the slightest thought of enlisting.

2. I echo the sentiments of ujm it is a tremendous chutzpah and poreitz geder of the gedolei hadoros. it is a serious breach

   Any and every chochom knows this effort by the secular Israelis against the olam Hatorah is the greatest threat to the future of klal Yisroel. imposed by none other than acheinu besoreinu

3. So by expelling them they go in now. That makes sense?

4. Bamidbar, chapter 32, verse 6:

   Moshe replies to the Tribe of Gad and the Tribe of Reuven:
   “Shall your brothers come to war while you remain here?”
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   In Tanach, Sefer Shoftim, [the Book of Judges] chapter 5,
   the Prophetess Deborah [Devorah HaNeviyah],
   sings a Divinely-inspired song.

   In chapter 5, verses 12 to 16, the Prophetess Deborah
   publicly praises those Jews who fought against the enemies of Israel.

   Then she publicly REBUKES those Jews who
   did NOT join the fight against the enemies of Israel.
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   In Tanach, in Sefer Shmuel Aleph, chapter 18, verse 7,
   we see Shaul HaMelech and the General of Shaul’s Army,
   David ben Yishai. (This was before David became King.)

   They are both returning home from recent victory in war.

   We see the Jewish women publicly praising both of them:

   “SHAUL HAS SLAIN HIS THOUSANDS AND
   DAVID [HAS SLAIN] HIS TENS OF THOUSANDS.”

   PERSONAL NOTE:
   From this we see that the soldiers who fight our enemies
   deserve to be publicly praised and thanked.
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   Tanach, Nechemiah, chapter 4, verse:

   “But it came to pass that, when Sanvallat, and Toviah,
   and the Arabs, and the Ammonites, and the Ashdodites,
   heard that the repairing of the walls of Jerusalem went forward,
   and that the breaches began to be stopped,
   then they were very wroth; and they conspired
   all of them together to come and fight against Jerusalem,
   and to cause confusion therein…

   “And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles,
   and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people:

   ‘Be not afraid of them! Remember HaShem,
   who is great and awesome, and FIGHT FOR YOUR BRETHREN,
   your sons and your daughters, your wives and your houses!’”
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   Babylonian Talmud, tractate Sanhedrin, page 72A:

   “If you see someone coming to kill you,
   then arise and kill him first.”

   PERSONAL NOTE:
   In our time, Hamas and Hezbollah are coming to kill us.
   For Jews to arise and kill them first is not merely permitted,
   it is required by Torah Law.
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   Once full-scale war broke out after the State of Israel declared its existence on May 14, 1948 [CE] Reb Shraga Feivel’s [Mendlowitz] thoughts were never far from Eretz Yisrael.

   A group of students saw him outside the Mesivta building one day, talking excitedly with Rabbi Gedaliah Schorr and gesticulating rapidly with the newspaper held in his hand.

   “If I were your age,” he told the students,
   “I would take a gun and go to Eretz Yisrael.”

   SOURCE: Reb Shraga Feivel: the life and times of Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz, the architect of Torah in America (chapter 26, page 338) by Yonoson Rosenblum for Artscroll / Mesorah, year 2001, based on Aharon Sorasky’s Shelucha DeRachmana, ISBNs: 157819797X, 9781578197972, 1578197961, 9781578197965
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   Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan [ZTL ZYA] said this in his
   HANDBOOK OF JEWISH THOUGHT, volume II,
   chapter 3, paragraph 24, top of page 23:

   “Experience has shown us that when Jews
   are not ready to defend and die for their fellows,
   an even greater number are killed in the end.”
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   Rabbi Steven Pruzansky said:

   “The IDF [Israeli Army] soldier fulfills three mitzvot
   that cannot be fulfilled by the soldier in any other army:
   the settlement (Yishuv) of Eretz Yisrael,
   preserving Jewish life (Pikuach Nefesh),
   and Kiddush HaShem,the sanctification of G-d’s Name,
   implicit in the Jewish people exercising sovereignty over our homeland.”

   SOURCE: Ask the Rabbi, Part 22 by Rabbi Steven Pruzansky
   2023 August 18 from www (dot) RabbiPruzansky (dot) com
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   Rabbi Pini Dunner said:

   “It is an open secret that out of the 12,000 annual exemptions,
   over half do not meet the standards of full-time Torah study, or even close.”

   SOURCE: article titled: “Haredi and Secular Jews Must
   All Serve the Israeli Nation and Find Purpose Together”
   by Rabbi Pini Dunner 2024/06/28 on algemeiner (dot) com
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   This article is from matzav (dot) com:

   Thousands gathered in Bnei Brak to honor those who have fallen in the ongoing war. The event included the completion of 2,000 masechtos of Mishnah and Gemara, which had been learned over recent months in memory of the fallen.

   Various rabbonim attended, including Rav Meir Mazuz, rosh yeshiva of Yeshiva Kisei Rachamim, Chief Rabbi Rav Dovid Yosef, and former Chief Rabbi Rav Yisroel Meir Lau.

   In his speech, Rav Yosef addressed the topic of Chareidi army enlistment, stating,
   “We care about the people of Israel. We feel the nation’s pain and study to merit the soldiers.”

   Rav Mazuz spoke about the importance of remembering those who serve in battle, affirming that “their (heavenly) wages are guaranteed.”

   He went on to say, “We are not here to discourage, we are here to support.
   All those who went to war, their wages are guaranteed both in this world and in the next. In this world they’ll be remembered and in the next world they will be paid immensely. In the merit of the Gemara that you studied, may HaShem give them a great place up above.”

   The event was broadcast by the Chareidi media and included heartfelt tefillos [prayers] for the safety of hostages and soldiers on the front lines.

   SOURCE: article titled: “Rav Meir Mazuz: ‘Those Who Go
   to War Are Guaranteed a Heavenly Wage’” 2024 October 31
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   This quote is from Yehuda Dov for VIN News:

   “A Defense Ministry committee which recently surveyed Charedi youth claimed that a large proportion of them could be drafted, since 13% are not studying and not working, 39% are working, 19% are working and learning and only 29% are exclusively studying Torah.”

   SOURCE: IDF Gathering Info About Working Charedim Prior To Sending 3000 Draft Notices by Yehuda Dov 2024 July 3 from www dot VINNews dot com
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   AML said this on October 30, 2024 on YWN:

   “The limit for me personally came when the Gedolim said even those that are not learning cannot go to the army because it will destroy their Yiddishkeit.

   This is spitting in the face of all the Daati Leumi who figured out how to do both.

   My sons have done it all, learned, serve and work and are B”H leading a Frum lifestyle. If they aren’t learning they need to serve. There are no excuses.”
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   Rambam, Hilchot Shabbat, chapter 2, paragraph 23:
   [The following rules apply] when gentiles lay siege to Jewish cities: against them, even when they are [merely] demanding hay or straw.

   If their intent was financial gain, then Shabbat laws should not be violated because of them, nor are we allowed to wage war against them.

   If a city is located near the border, however, we should march against them with weapons and wage war

   In any location, if the gentiles’ intent was [to harm] Jewish lives, or if they engaged in battle with a city or laid siege to it, without stating a specific intention, we must wage war against them and the Shabbat laws should be violated because of them.

   It is a mitzvah for every member of the Jewish people who can come [to their assistance] to go out and help their brothers who are under siege and save them from the gentiles [even on] Shabbat. It is forbidden to delay until after Shabbat.

   After they [the Jewish soldiers] saved their brothers, they [the Jewish soldiers] may return home with their weapons [even] on Shabbat, so that a dangerous situation will not be created in the future.

5. Square root you are so learned. The grand rabbis heads of our greatest yeshivot are not aware of all your holy sources, only you are? Yet they and the great sages who preceded them all state in unison to reject the idf beshtei yadayim and beshtei raglayim…

   I am so sorry to break it to you!

6. There you go again Square Root with your Tzeduki and Mizrachi propaganda.

7. SQUARE_ROOT,
   I didn’t even bother going through all your gibberish.
   I guess you’re another one of the מינים that להדיא go against every current גדול הדור.
   HaGaon HaRav Dov Landau, HaGaon HaRav Moshe Hillel Hirsch, HaGaon HaRav Meir Tzvi Bergman, HaGaon HaRav Yitzchak Zilberstein, HaGaon HaRav Baruch Dov Povarsky. They are not enough!! We’re talking about the biggest people of our generation! Not to mention the previous גדולי הדור we lost in the past few decades. Bringing ראיות from the נביא means absolutely nothing at all, as there are many reasons why they don’t apply in the current situation in ארץ ישראל.
   What bothers me so much about you ppl constantly commenting the same garbage, is very simple and straightforward: HOW CAN YOU CALL YOURSELF JEWISH WHEN THE BIGGEST גדולי הדור WHO REPRESENT עם ישראל ALL AGREE פה אחד ON THIS MATTER??? THESE ARE THE MINISTERS OF GOD!
   I now have another person to have in mind when I say למינים ולמלשינים ולאפיקורסים.

8. My son is in that Yeshiva-I heard the direct facts from him and I highly recommend that YWN check their facts before printing false details of stories. Readers please keep in mind that there is always more to the story than what the media tells you.

9. “The yeshivah in question is Itri, which is a Chareidi yeshivah in Jerusalem but is a bit more open and offers secular studies, a yeshivah high school [ישיבה תיכונית] similar to those in the US.”
   This is absolutely WRONG. Itri does NOT offer secular studies. It is a standard Israeli yeshiva gedola (post-high school) with Torah learning only. However, the bochurim who learn there are coming from yeshiva high schools where secular studies are offered.

10. Puzzled: Your report says “The bochurim signed that they would enlist in the IDF within 20 months of ending their limudim in yeshivah gedola in exchange for the removal of personal sanctions.”. So, if the agreement is for AFTER they have completed their planned period of full time learning, why is this any worse than someone applying for a job for when he leaves Yeshiva? The main point of contention seems to be that the bochurim did not take the time to discuss their move with their Rabbonim, which they should have done.

11. SQUARE_ROOT:
    Why bother with all that copy/pasted Zionist nonsense propaganda?

    The Zionists’ army is a shmad. Its express purpose, as stated by its first dear leader, is to convert Jew into Zionist. Regarding your quote of AML? from VN, the “Religious Zionists” willingly shmad themselves in the Zionist army because, as gedolim like Rav Elchonon have stated, “Religious Zionism” is idolatry and religion together.

12. Itri does not and never offered secular studies. It’s just incorrect to say that. The boys however do come from high schools which offered secular studies. The yeshiva promotes hashkafa against studying anything else other than kodesh.

13. @ujm @lbj
    How is this a chutzpa to their roshei yeshiva?
    The agreement clearly states that ONCE the bochrum leave yeshiva, they will enlist in the IDF.
    Therefore, by definition, once the draft takes place, they will no longer be connected in any way to their yeshiva

14. The Pasuk: “Shall your brothers come to war while you remain here?” Is refering to the tribes of Reuven abd Gad who were not Bnei Torah but…..SHEPARDS!!
    The rest of your nonsence can be easily rufuted like the above, but why waste time on a Am Ha’aretz

15. As ujm and ibj correctly wrote; it was a chutzpah to defy the orders of their Roshei Yeshivah and the Gedolim in general; it is even a bigger chutzpah for Square Root שם רשעים ירקב to write and for YWN to publish a long essay against ALL the Gedolim שליט”א!

16. Square root, where are you rosh yeshiva?
    You seem to think you know more than all the gedolim and roshei yeshivos.

17. Square root
    Thanks
    Of course the chareidim should be serving in some capacity.
    The same way most should be working in some capacity.
    Boggles my mind that the community itself cannot see this for themselves

18. a rosh yeshiva is just that, great at learning a gemora and giving a shiur.
    but sometimes boys have to act in accord with their personal interests and needs.
    I think it is a shame they booted these boys. But the RY is afraid other boys with follow their lead.

19. its getting more and more difficult to find common denomonaters between the “Chareidi” way of life and Judaism…

20. So, yeshivos are punishing bnei yeshiva for their future service when they will not be bnei yeshiva? I think this mutual fighting just for the purpose of fighting (aka sinas hinam) should stop. And IDF will quickly correct the procedure and give the funds direcctly to bochurim. Of course, their new cars may stand out on the parking lot.

21. מצוה בכל נפשך!
    They are putting thir lives on the line deserving recognition and financial compensation.

22. Agree with Always_Ask_Questions – at least in the defense of the boys’ actions: How could the Yeshiva be makpid on what the boys will do after they leave? Additionally, if the main issue is pulling boys out of Yeshiva into the army, well once the boy has anyway left Yeshiva, what’s the problem? That’s all in defense of the boys’ behavior. But, from what I’ve heard from a talmid of one of the Gedolim is that the Gedolim have other reasons why they hold chareidim cannot join the army (which can’t be publicized) so that explains why the Yeshiva is being makpid on the boys joining the army even after they are no longer learning full time. In closing, Moshiach, we’re waiting for you to take over! Please come!

23. I feel so sorry for these Bochrim their freedom of choice has been taken away, why cant they study and go to the army if thats what they want. The army need every soldier they can get because, the same soldiers are being called up again and again and some of the soldiers get very little relief from the fighting. Israel is fighting for her existence. I understand from both sides the army and the Yishivas and i understand the people who are upset cause the Yeshivas dont want their students to go to the army. I dont know the solution but a compromise would be good, not to compromise the learning, but a way must be found.

24. Honestly, this seems like sinas chinam. There are many fine bnei Torah in the army and they are moser nafsham, litzaraynu sometimes literally, for us their brothers. We are kidding ourselves if we pretend every bochur in a yeshiva is learning all day or that most, let alone all, bochurim should or can be learning all day full time and closing off all other Torah oriented paths, such as joining the army, can’t lead anywhere positive.

25. Square root you totally missed the boat

26. Every heter to wage war and join an army had to come from the urim vetumim which we don’t have now. If the argument is self protection, the Israelis are liable for October 7th and for every Jewish death.

27. If the founder of the Yeshivah Rabbi Elephant was alive he would make every bochur sign the agreement ! what a shame the current Roshe Yeshivah have strayed from their roots!

28. Personally, I am very torn about this issue. The reality is, even before we get started on whether Yeshiva boys should be exempted, we have to recognize that the IDF is fighting a never-ending battle of their own making. We shouldn’t be putting our soldiers at risk because we’re afraid of killing “innocent civilians” by using more decisive actions, we should have bombed the bejeezes out of them until the screamed uncle. This approach could have saved lives and stopped these ridiculous wars eons ago. The current approach is too dangerous, and has no end in sight. So if they insist on needlessly risking casualties, why should anyone who recognizes their stupidity want to join and possibly become one of those casualties?
    Once we accept the situation as is, where Israel worries about “world opinion” and therefore will forever be fighting and losing holy yidden, then and only then can we begin a discussion about putting our potential Torah scholars into an army whose very mission (besides killing terrorists) is to move their personnel away from a Torah life and a belief in the kochi v’otzem yadi mentality (yes, there are always bandaids for this problem, like Nachal Chareidi, but that doesn’t change the mission, only the outcome on a limited basis). And how do you decide who will become an outstanding talmid chochom and should therefore be exempt, and who not? Do we just tell them all to go to the army and let the Americans be the talmidei chachomim?
    So, as I said, I am torn. The nonsense spouted by many in this thread about the obligations we find in Navi and some Rishonim to fight in these wars is basically irrelevant, as noted by many others here, but the issue is nevertheless real.