British bestselling author and newspaper columnist Douglas Murray was interviewed by TalkTV hostess Julia Hartley-Brewer about the war in Israel and she challenged him about Israel’s “disproportionate” attack on the Gaza Strip.
Although she wryly admits that there has been “little criticism of Egypt” for closing their border to Gazan civilians, Hartely-Brewer presses Murray on whether Israel’s airstrikes on Gaza are a “reasonable, proportionate, and moral response.”
Murray provided a forceful response, saying: “There is some deep perversion in Britain whenever Israel is involved in a conflict and it is the word you just used – ‘proportionate.'”
“Proportionality in conflict rarely exists but if we should decide that we have this fetish about proportionality, then that would mean that in retaliation for what Hamas did in Israel, Israel should try to locate a music festival in Gaza, for instance, and rape precisely the number of women that Hamas terrorists raped, kill precisely the number of young people that Hamas killed. They should find a town of exactly the same size and make sure they go door to door and kill precisely the correct number of babies that Hamas killed and shoot in the head precisely the same number of old-age pensioners.”
“Proportionality in conflict is a joke and it’s a very strange British concept we have that ONLY the Israelis are expected to have precisely a ‘proportionate’ response.”
Douglas added that it “always has to be said that the difference between the Western way of war and the Hamas terrorists’ way of war is that their objective is to kill civilians, the objective of Hamas is to kill innocent people. The objective of conflict in the United States, the UK, Israel, and other civilized democracies is to kill as few innocent people as possible. It cannot be said enough that Israel tries to use the IDF to protect its citizenry. Hamas uses its citizenry to try to protect Hamas.”
It should be noted that Hartley-Brewer tweeted the following statements on Sunday: “I have been struck by the poignant messages I’ve received all week from Jewish friends, neighbours, and even total strangers. But all saying how scared they are and how fearful they are that they are alone here in the UK, that we won’t stand up for them in their hour of need.”
“They are bewildered by the hatred directed at Jews and at Israel despite them being the victims of the horrific massacre of Israelis by Hamas terrorists. One friend said simply: ‘If Israel isn’t safe – the one place we always knew we could escape to – then nowhere is safe.'”
“The pro-Palestine protest in London yesterday has chilled many of our fellow citizens to the bone. Support for Hamas was open and proud on our streets – a terror group that wants to obliterate not just the state of Israel but the Jewish people too.”
“You cannot stay silent in the face of this abomination. You cannot shrug and say ‘it’s nothing to do with me.’ It should matter to *everyone* in this country if some people feel they are unsafe simply because of their race or religion. All decent people must speak out.”
“All decent people must stand side by side with our fellow citizens. Staying silent is not an option anymore. British Jews need to know that they are safe and welcome in their own country. It’s what every citizen of this country should feel.”
(YWN Israel Desk – Jerusalem)
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37 Responses
Israeli hasbarah needs articulate, cool, calm and unflappable spokespeople that sound like Douglas Murray! Thank you for this video.
עשו שונא ליעקב
Honestly this is the most clear and intelligent answer I’ve ever heard.
He nailed it.
Very well said. But why confuse them with the facts.
They clearly are in the UK and have no idea what’s happening in Gaza, Israel has killed many multiples of the amount of babies killed on simchas Torah. Also al pi halach anyin tachas anyin doesn’t mean literal proportionate response. My final point is that Zionism is so clearly against halacha and Zionism is the same thing making yiddin in the UK feel unsafe not people supporting Palestinians
TO the best of my knowledge no other country gives warnings, via the media, phone messages etc. to leave thee buildings before retaliating… Only Israel – and whatever they do to save innocent lives, usually at the expense of endangering their own soldiers and tactics, is never enough…
@Harryyid : Where do you get this “fact” from? How do you know that Israel killed “many multiples of the amount of babies killed on Simchas Torah?” In fact, even Hamas is not making that claim. So just shut your mouth.
I’ve watched the BBC reporting for the “fun” of it last week, simply to discover their style of reporting. Well, okay the BBC reported segment after segment of the destruction and loss in Gaza. One may sit there wondering when the BBC will show at least one (at least ONE!) news segment on the loss of life or injury for an Israeli infant, adult, or senior citizen. Such a news segment never occurred during the 60 minute duration of the show. Ironically, the BBC calls Israel, the United States, Fox News, or right-wing media as a biased platform, while we sit here waiting for ONE (1) presentation on the loss of life of an Israeli/Jew from the BBC. If you would have told Adolf Hitler in the 1930s that German media would have a more favorable outlook on Jews than England, he would have laughed. Unfortunately, that is indeed the case in 2023.
Harryyid13- If you hate Zionism or the IDF so much, there is plenty of affordable real estate in Gaza or South Africa for you to go. Try wearing a yarmulka in either location and let us know the outcome.
Editors, how do you allow such lowlifes as Harryyid13 to post his garbage here?
Since Harryyid13 takes liberties with freedom of speech, I too propose that comments coming from questionable sources like Palestinians hiding behind names like harryyid13 deserve to be edited out.
How do I know how many babies are killed in Gaza? I went and learned how the Gaza health ministries reports deaths during war times as well as prcs (which magen David adom agreed never had their emblem used in war; against idf claims of Hamas using prcs ambulances)
And you know who taught me to be anti-zionist, my yeshiva and my shul, saying that mi shebarach where they claim “raishit gulasanu” was so controversial that it was often a reason stated for not davening at young Israel by other people in my community and only recently has there been open support of Israel in my community but I haven’t forgotten that midinat yisroel has more Christian values than Torah values.
Harryyid13,
Shame on you, you ferd.
See the Rambam in Perek gimmel hilchos teshuva halacha 11. You fit the bill well. You don’t care about the pain of your Jewish brothers and sisters. Instead you use it to promote your stupid ideologies. Even Satmar has had yemei tefila. That is because despite their opposition to the medina, they still understand we’re all one nation. You do not. Maybe the pain has to hit closer to home for you to wake up?
The Vilna Gaon said Zionism is a weighted Mitzvah
Yishuv ha eretz is Zionism
Mods shame on you for allowing sinass chinom
@TGIShabbos I live in America land of the free, especially religious freedom and I can keep all the halachos no problems idk why I would need to seek a place for that?
If the current situation he is explaining wouldn’t have been so tearfully sad, I would have probably have been on the floor laughing at this near imitation of Mr Bean, or rather the most perfect description of an old-time ‘Brit’ as they say.
His very annoyed tone, gestures, head movements and sharp stabs he gives the presenter, but all with a typical British calm and politeness would usually be hilarious.
Harryyid13:
Or, better, the Zionists could stop harassing and impoverishing and shmading our Jewish brethren under their control.
Now would be a good time to recall the Chazon Ish’s statement that one morning we will wake up to discover that there is no more Zionist State (nothing to do with the Jews therein).
TGIShabbos:
Or, better, the Zionists could stop harassing and impoverishing and shmading our Jewish brethren under their control.
Now would be a good time to recall the Chazon Ish’s statement that one morning we will wake up to discover that there is no more Zionist State (nothing to do with the Jews therein).
A number of Lithuanian (non-Hasidic) leaders, like the Chazon Ish (1878–1953), Rav Shach (1898–2001), and Rabbi Yosef Sholom Elyashiv (1910-2012), have expressed strongly anti-Zionist views. Examples of this are found in lectures and letters of Rav Shach. One of the newspapers of the Litvish world, the Yated Neeman, regularly publishes articles strongly criticizing Zionism, naming it a “heretical movement”. The main Litvish community does vote, as per what many say were the instructions of the Chazon Ish. However, some of the Chazon Ish’s disciples dispute this claim. Rabbi Elyashiv would urge his followers to vote for the Degel HaTorah list. Rabbi Shimshon Dovid Pincus, quoted in the book of his speeches about Purim, explains that in each generation, the Yetzer Hara (evil inclination) appears in different forms. Examples he gives are the Enlightenment and communism. He goes on to explain that nowadays, Zionism is a form of the Yetzer Hara.
Rabbi Moshe Feinstein (1895–1986), one of the American leaders of the Lithuanian Jewish world, writes in a responsum to a question whether it is permissible to pray in a synagogue which displays an Israeli flag: “Even though it is improper to bring the flags into shul, and all the more so not to keep them there permanently, and all the more so, not near the Aron Kodesh, and one should try to remove it peacefully. However, to make a fight over this is forbidden.”
Anti-Zionism does not translate to personal antagonism, and Rabbi Chaim Shmuelevitz, the Mirrer rosh yeshiva, openly displayed thanks to soldiers of the Israeli army.
The Soloveitchik dynasty of Lithuanian Haredi Judaism is known as one of the most elite scholastic dynasties in all of Orthodox Judaism. The dynasty split into two groups in the 20th century, as parts of the Soloveitchik Rabbinical family veered away from their anti-Zionist tradition set by Rabbi Chaim Soloveitchik of Brisk, and adopted views aligned with Modern Orthodox Judaism and Religious Zionism. Ironically, the Zionist faction of the Brisker dynasty is centered in the United States, and the anti-Zionist faction was, and continues to be, centered in Israel. Rabbi Meir Soloveitchik and Rabbi Dovid Soloveitchik, who lead two of the Brisker yeshivas in Jerusalem, continue to be outspoken opponents of Zionism.
@Harryyid13:
You are all kinds of messed up.
As far as I am aware, with the exception of the most radical neturei karta types, nearly every rabbinical authority in the world would consider the immediate retaliation and dismantlement of Hamas to be a מלחמת מצוה.
עין תחת עין has nothing whatsoever to do with this.
As it is well known, Hamas uses human shields and hides their weaponry and bunkers among hospitals, apartment buildings, universities, media offices, and humanitarian shelters.
These are all clear violations of the rules of war, and wholly puts the onus of the ensuing civilian deaths squarely on Hamas.
Recently Hamas has gone a step farther and began attacking civilians trying to escape from Gaza city.
So go back to your ayatollah kissing enclave and leave us all alone.
Don’t claim you represent Judaism, Orthodox Jews, Jewish thinking, or any kind of thinking.
@fakenews did you ask the kohen gadol if this is a milchemes mitzvah? Did you consult with the choshen?
@BASESTHER sorry but there are frum yidden out there that don’t believe 75 years of the medinahs proclaimed protection of “Jews” actually makes yidden any safer and in fact has endangered yidden and Palestinians alike which is kneged every value of yiddishkeit. If you need to believe I’m a Palestinian go ahead but it’s clear I know litvish shprach.
The point that the other commentators are trying to make, Harryyid13, (and you are obviously to tone deaf to understand), is that whatever views you hold on the Medinah, now is not the time to engage in the stupid squabbling about Zionism and anti-Zionism. Over 1000 Jews were murdered in cold blood and there are people all over the world who celebrated this attack. All Yidden have gotten together this past week in a show of achdus for their brethren yet you continue you childish commentating. Do you zero empathy?
@Marxist: It’s exactly the time to be having discussions about what caused this attack. I’m pointing the finger at Zionism and saying I feel unsafe and that is the root of why I feel unsafe so I’m going to bring it up. I ask myself why are “people all over the world celebrating this attack”? And they are the ones who answered the question for me, they said it’s the “evil Zionist state” which they equate with Judaism. All this is regardless of the fact that I would like to be a Jew outside of Israel with no intention of ever moving there; hence Zionism has made it unsafe for me to be Jewish in America.
Harry, who I don’t believe is a yid, there is no need to consult a kohen gadol or the choshen. It is a HALACHA PESUKA, without ANY dispute, that this is a milchemes mitzvah, and if you deny that you are an apikores (that is, you would be if you were a yid at all). I will not give the mareh mekomos because it is so easily found that nobody needs them.
And you are ironically right that the Torah does not believe in “proportionate response”. Ayin Tachas Ayin is a red herring. Nobody mentioned it because it’s irrelevant. But the Torah says clearly that we go to war not with individuals but with an entire nation, and we should besiege the city until it falls. That means no food or water allowed in, and we bombard it with catapults that will kill noncombatants. We have to allow noncombatants to escape, but those who remain, whether by their own choice or not, are fair game until the city falls. And when it falls we are COMMANDED to wipe out the ENTIRE ADULT MALE POPULATION, including elderly men and bar-mitzvah boys. And to enslave the women and children. THAT is what the Torah tells us. So spare us your wailing and lies about dead babies. May there be many more such.
Also, you are lying when you claim MDA has “admitted” that the red crescent is not used by terrorists. It has never admitted such a thing, because we all know it’s not true. We have SEEN THE PICT
Oops. We have SEEN THE PICTURES of Red Crescent ambulances used to transport terrorists and weapons. So don’t give us such garbage and expect us to believe it.
Harry, it is a clear and undisputed halacha that one does not need a kohen gadol or a choshen in order to determine that a war is milchemes mitzvah. On the contrary, they are only ever consulted in the case of milchemes reshus. When we have a choice whether to fight or not, that is when we consult the choshen to see whether we will be successful. But a milchemes mitzvah must be fought regardless of our chance of success, so there’s nothing to ask.
For those who babble about “proportionality” and “international law”, see this explanation by some prominent experts, showing that Israel is fully compliant with all relevant laws.
https://legalinsurrection.com/2023/10/video-israel-complies-with-the-law-of-armed-conflict-when-defending-against-terrorists-hiding-among-civilians-2/
Harry, your claim that the Red Crescent ambulances are never used by terrorists is an outright lie, and your claim that MDA has “admitted” this is another outright lie. We have all SEEN the pictures and videos of terrorists and arms being transported by PRC ambulances. We’ve seen them regularly for at least the past 20 years. So don’t try to convince us that we didn’t see what we saw.
HaKatan, was the 3rd Bayis completed yet? Are karbonos being offering in Thr Bais Hamikdash? Until that happens, if there is no zionistic state, then there are no Jews in Eretz Yirsoel.
In 2009 MDA agreed that Hamas had attempted to use a PRCS ambulance but that after interviewing the crew members learned the team was able to escape those attempts, Magen David Adom spokesperson said “there was no use of pcrs ambulances for the transport of weapons or munitions ….and there was no misuse of the emblem by PRCS”
@HarryYid13
People with regular human emotions understand that there is a time and place for criticism and arguing one’s position. Not right after a terrible pogrom of Jews. Wait some time and then you can argue about how the Medinah makes you unsafe if you really feel that way. Doing now makes you come across as callous which you probably are.
harryyid13. There is no requirement for the idf to do more than they do. They inform the residence in advance of the bombings. If they choose not to leave, it’s not their fault. Not in Halacha nor in current society standards. Furthermore you blame the Medinah for this. What involvement did the Medinah have in the Chevron massacre of 1929? There was no Medinah? They were all chareidi bnei torah, following the main stream opinions of shulchan aruch? how about when the Turkish ruled Eretz Yisroel and treated the Yidden there misserably? How about when the world celebrated Nazism and the murder of 6 million Jews? none of it has anything to do with the Medinah, but it all has to do with the Chazal that states, “Halacha B’yaduah Eisav Sonei L’yaakov”. If you disagreeyou are a kofer.
Harry If the Medinah makes you feel unsafe move to harlem. Most people that live in Eretz Yisroel feel safer on a daily basis than American Jews.
Harry Proportionality, if that was used during ww2, to end ww2, would never have happened for the US. The only way the Us saw an out with Japan was the use of Atomic Weapons. Why was that necessary? Because the Japs believed in dyeing for the Emperor. Kamikaze were suicide missions. Very similar to the terrorist method. So according to you if that’s the way to end war, Israel should carpet bomb all Hamas territory, Hezbollah, Iran, Lebanon, Syria and Qatar. I’m sure I missed a few. Accepting Ratzon Hashem is the only way for Yid to look at life. That together with Emunah and bitacjon will help us as we’re mispalel for all those in pain and mourning.
@Marxist,
that is exactly the point:
As the Satmar Rav brings (in the first/second paragraph of the hakdama to Vayoel Moshe) from Harav Yosef Ya’avetz Hasfardi, and from his ancestor the Chava’as Da’as, and more, that in every generation, whenever there befell on Klal Yisrael a tzara, the first thing the did was “חקרו ודרשו מה זה ועל מה זה”, they made a din v’cheshbon which aveiros brought it upon us.
Unfortunately, the zionists have tried (and unfortunately succeeded to much) to turn over Jewish minds.
Many like to argue about the shalosh shevu’os ‘not being halacha lema’aseh’, with various stupid empty arguments for this, BUT ONE THING IS CLEAR, the kiyum of “אמר רבי אלעזר: אמר להם הקב”ה לישראל: אם אתם מקיימין את השבועה – מוטב; ואם לאו – אני מתיר את בשרכם כצבאות וכאילות השדה” has definitely happened….
@Milhouse,
You are obviously very limited in Torah knowledge or maybe just a very young child, because even children in school at a young age know and are taught WHAT IT SAYS IN THE TORAH that milchemes mitzvah has to happen ONLY and once the kohen hagadol has been asked and the choshen.
You are obviously never learned any nach.
Every second perek is about a milchama that klal yisrael held, and beforehand them going to the kohen to ask.
Just open a Shmuel etc and you’ll see it.
Psakim are not made by YWN posts, nor by hamodia articles, sorry.
@shmendrik24,
your ignorance of fact is amazing.
Unless…. Unless, you just are not aware of much outside the mainstream media world, in which case I can’t really blame you.
The fact of the matter is, every year more religious Jews leave Eretz Yisrael than move there.
Every year, more an more families leave/run away from that dangerous and vloatile area of the world.
There has never been a time where our shuls, communities etc are so full of families who have run away/left/moved from the country.
And this is beside the secular public in Israel, where more and more of them move to Germany, and other countries, being secular, not being interested in putting their life in line for a country which it’s excuse is a warped wrenched out so called ‘religious belief’, but infact is just a secular tool to shmad jews.