In the wake of the fall of a Sefer Torah on Shabbos morning in Yeshivas Ponevezh, the Roshei Yeshivah established a day of teshuvah and hissorerus on Thursday as outlined in a letter published in the yeshivah on Tuesday morning.
B’Chadrei Chareidim reported that prior to the publication of the letter, Rosh Yeshivas Ponevezh HaGaon HaRav Gershon Edelstein sent the Nasi of the yeshivah, HaGaon HaRav Eliezer Kahaneman, to the Posek HaGaon HaRav Moshe Shaul Klein, asking about the opinion of the late Posek HaDor, HaGaon Harav Shmuel Wosner, z’tl.
The letter, signed by HaGaon HaRav Edelstein, HaGaon HaRav Baruch Dov Povarsky and HaGaon HaRav Kahaneman, stated that it can’t be said that the bochurim should fast in the wake of the incident due to the bittul Torah it would cause and therefore they scheduled Thursday, the 12th of Teves, as a day of teshuvah and hisorrerus.
“On this day, after tefillas Mincha, the chazzan and all the Bnei Yeshivah will say Perek Kuf Yud Tes in Tehillim. All those who were in the Beis Medrash when the Sefer Torah fell are like those who saw a Sefer Torah falling and therefore on this day they will eat only bread and water without spreading anything on the bread or [eating] other foods – all this until Tzeis Hakochavim – thereby not causing a weakening of limmud.”
“The bochurim will accept upon themselves to be mechazeik in the kavod of the sefarim and therefore each bochur will accept upon himself to return the sefarim he learned from to their place, and at the end of the seder, will try to take another two sefarim that he didn’t learn from and return them to the bookshelf.”
(YWN Israel Desk – Jerusalem)
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32 Responses
reform jews
Kovod zeh lazeh is at least as important
The response to this tragedy is actually than the tragedy itself .
I guess gedolim can override halachos of shulchan oruch that require fasting by those who see a Sefer Torah fall.
Bittul Torah is reason enough for Bittul Halacha.
BTW – sleeping in a sukkah instead of a comfy bed also causes bittul Torah so let’s abolish that!
We already abolished chazoras ha’shatz for mincha for a Reader’s Digest condensed “heicha kedusha” to avoid “wasting time” of repeating the shemona esrei – because bittul Torah overrides shulchan oruch.
But when other communities follow long-established minhagim that we don’t like – THAT’S when we pull out our Shulchan Oruch and shoot first, ask questions later.
I don’t usually find myself in agreement with the Rebbetzin on anything but this its really funny how some Rabbonim seem to be able to find “mitigating factors” to avoid imposing the burdensome requirements under halacha and instead recommend the bochurim “say a kapital tehillim along with a fresh baguette and a bottle of Ein Gedi sparkling water.
Rebbetzin Gold, long-established minhagim which do not have a good foundation. It is one thing to be lenient about a minhag (fasting over the fall of a seifer Torah), and it is a different matter to uproot takonos Chazal — davening shacharis at 11:40. Plus, in some communities bittul Torah is not a shaila, Rachmona liyzlan.
MosheBinyomin, why on a orthadox website do you write your religious affiliation?
Some rabbonim?
You are a sick puppy
Do you know almost every if not every rosh Yeshiva in the chareidi world would agree with the directive of the rish Yeshiva of ponevezh
You keyboard warriors are the clowns with not an ounce of hadracha in your life unless uman is called hadracha
Such spiritual weaklings. This just goes to show that the much-vaunted lomdus of the so-called elite yeshivot is, as my father would say, “אַ פּוסטע זאַך”. When we assume an overintellectual posture, we run the risk of inventing all sorts of twisted ideas that, in the end, take the heart out of Yiddishkeit. Who ever heard of not fasting after witnessing the fall of a sefer Torah? And using “bittul Torah” as an excuse? Shameful!
No Torah-true Yekkie – from Frankfurt to Würzburg to Fuerth – would have ever put up with this. If a sefer Torah had fallen in one of the old-time Yekkish yeshivot, no such shenanigans would have taken place. They would have fasted, mournfully recited Tehillim, and done cheshbon ha-nefesh. In the German yeshivot, where the learning was not lomdish but “on the daf,” no one would have dared to find the easy way out of a din or minhag and give “bittul Torah” as an excuse.
Rebbetzin, there is no such halacha in Shulchan Aruch. It simply doesn’t exist. Search the entire Shulchan Aruch and you won’t find it. You’ll find in hilchos Tefillin that if one drops ones tefillin one must fast, “just as one would for a fallen sefer torah”, but nowhere will you find the rule for the sefer torah itself. It appears that fasting for a fallen sefer torah is NOT a halacha at all, but merely a normal and appropriate emotional response that can be expected on such an occasion. And therefore it is completely appropriate for the roshei yeshiva to direct the bochurim to take an alternative response, in order to minimize the bitul torah.
I hope you people remove your comments. The Chazon ish said about R gershon edelstien things that are unheard about other people. I will not go into detail. Just for your own sake הזהרו בגחלתן.
Very serious things have happened to people who publicly were Mevazeh Gedolei Hador especially on things like Halacha which you probably would not reach their toenails in Yedias Hatorah. For your own sake and sake of your family I advise you remove your comments and if I were you I would even ask apology from the Gedolim. YWN please let this be posted and please be careful of comments posted on this website when it comes to the Kavod of our few Gedolei hdor we have left. Thanks
Bemakom She’ain Ish…
Gedolei Torah, in consultation with leading poskim, paskened on how to respond to a public bizayon HaTorah. The snide attacks on great talmidei chachamim and their decisions is a far greater chillul Hashem and bizayon Hatorah than an accidental fall of a sefer Torah.
I strongly urge the anonymous posters, and perhaps all who agreed with them, to take on a full day fast to atone for their public bizayon HaTorah.
Hametzapeh L’rachamei Shomaim
The ignorance of the commenters is amusing.
Halacha is and always was decided by the poskim of the time. You don’t open up a shulchan aruch and decide the halacha.
Today, chassidishe and litvishe poskim generally look down at fasting as a means of tikkun and advocate for other means of teshuva that substitute fasting.
This already goes back to the Alter Rebbe (baal hatanya v’shulchan aruch) who discusses replacing fasting with tzedaka because of the weakness of the generation. How much more so now, many years later.
Dear commenters: Next time, say:
“תורה היא וללמוד אני צריך. Please, explain us the sources for this heter.”
It seems that the Magen Avraham (Orach Chaim 44:5 that requires fasting) was written for the yoshvei kronos (non-learning people) but not for those that learn in Ponevezh.
Maybe only chassidim need to follow strictly shulchan oruch because they anyway “waste time” learning chassidus! We can attack them when they don’t keep our chumros (based on some shitos) – which we adopt as “halacha”, while we ourselves may pick and choose which halacha we accept or reject.
Is it okay to disregard other halochos (like in kashrus or shabbos) if adherence might cause bittul Torah?
The kosher restaurant is distant from the Yeshiva, and takes longer to get there, while the treif restaurant is closer to the basis hamedresh – eating lunch there prevents bittul Torah?! There is no eruv but if I carry my chidushim to shul I can be marbitz Torah la’rabim?!
It is a slippery slope that open the floodgates for every individual to make his own binyan av and create his own better based on this ruling.
Milhouse, Your comment is misleading (half truths).
I cited the Magen Avraham which you feel “merely” implies that fasting is required when tefillin is dropped “just like a safer Torah”, and Mishne Brura s. 40 ss. 3. Except it adds that a sefer Torah requires fasting even if it fell while covered.
It doesn’t get clearer than that!
Sources that add the reasons for fasting when a Torah falls are Shut Mahari Brunna 127 (- a sign from Heaven that one has done something wrong for which one must repent) and the CHIDA in Chaim Sha’al 1:12 ( – to atone for the lack of care and respect which allowed the holy object to fall).
A detailed list of sources for fasting consisting of the greatest of our Achronim can be found in Sefer Piskei Teshuva, s. 40, ss. 3 at FN19-27.
At FN 26 brings from Shut Divrei Chaim, Avnei Tzedek, Imrei Aish, Aguras HaBoshem the types of fasting required, in detail:
* the communal leaders, shamoshim and gabboyim fast B”HAB;
* the congregation that were present fast one day and read V’yichal;
* others who were not present redeem the fast with tzedakah for hachnosas kallah of orphans of talmidei chachomim,
* women are exempt from actual fasting but should give tzedaka.
Granted that there are SOME opinions that are meikil on the fasting…just as there are opinions that Chodosh (in Chutz La’aretz bizman hazeh) is lechatchilah completely MUTTAR, but the yeshivish oilom has been machmir on this to comply with even the shitos that are stringent…even when it causes “bittul Torah” to investigate the product codes and hunt for yoshon!
There are plenty of opinions that are mattir eating a snack before davening (because we are considered “weak” and without the snack we wouldn’t daven properly and our kavanah will be on the soon to eaten breakfast)…but the yeshivish oilom is stringent to follow the Mishne Brura on this…and ignore the mitigating circumstances listed by many poskim.
There are plenty of opinions that are mattir not sleeping in a sukah these days (due to weather, weakness, comfort etc), but the yeshivish oilom is yeherag v’al ya’avor on this and disparage those that rely on the mattirim.
The yeshivish oilom heeps adding chumras – stringencies that are not mentioned in halacha seforim, EVEN when it causes bittul Torah. You have seen them: super long tzitzis – which hang down past the knees (- the shiyur of a woman’s dress!). The time spent to earn the extra money for these modern chumros comes at a cost of bittul Torah.
Pick and choose all you want, but not everyone marches in your parade. So do not disparage other frum yidden that don’t have your invented chumra or those that follow mainstream poskim and not the da’as yochid that you decided this year to be important.
BTW – if the gedolim (and ketanim) are so so so very concerned about bittul Torah, maybe they should adopt the psak of their own gedolim and poskim that prohibit shaving (including Rav Chaim Kanevsky, Chofetz Chaim and dozens of others). They rely on a hetter (unpublished) from Reb Moshe (from decades ago about older inefficient shavers presumably said to a yochid who might have special circumstances).
Yet, every day bochurim spend time shaving. The accumulated time wasted is tremendous bittul Torah! But alas, bittul Torah is used as an excuse of convenience.
Fasting (a one time act) – bittul Torah!
Shaving (daily) – no issue of bittul Torah!
The commenting shows abnormal gayoh, making out that you are at a possition you can judge our few Gedolim!!!!!!!!!!!! Do Teshuva ASAP. @educated elya is 100% correct. Maybe if you are learning 17 hours a day for over half a century you maybe maybe maybe have a right to comment, if not then…………..
But bittul Torah is used to ignore halacha of chazoras ha’shatz in Mincha, suffice to make a hoycha kedusha, even though the Bais Yossef and practically every posek prohibits such.
Imagine if Chabad would have such a custom – the Litvaks would be hollering at them, they’s scream “how dare you not follow halacha?!” till their throats would become hoarse and sore! (Heck, they do so about other things that Chabad and other communities do).
It’s time to call a spade a spade.
You follow your rabbonim. Other communities will follow their rabbonim. Accept others who follow their poskim and they will accept you when you follow yours.
Kulom kedoshim, v’chulom osem b’eima u’b’yira retzon konom!
Testing again
Milhouse, you know that fasting is not merely a reactionary response but one listed in multiple sifrei halacha. Above I cited sources. Why mislead the readers?!
Rebbetzinn Chabad, don’t you dare being mevaze Talmide Chachomim!!!
Secondly, if you learnt Gemora and Poskim (and not only Tanya and Likutei Torah), you would have known what is chomur and what is less so. You do not compare de’Oraisos (Sukkah, Yoshon) with fasting over the fall of a seifer Torah (I personally would not necessarily pasken not to fast). Etc.
mdd1 – I am not a member of the Chabad chasidus. I am yekka and my husband is of the sefardi-Italian mesorah. But I respect ALL yidden especially those that, like me and my husband, have minhigim and mesoras that are not fully “mainstream” yeshivish-Litvish. If you cannot accept all Yidden that fillow their poskim and mesorah, than YOU are מוציא עצמו מן הכלל( י
mdd1 – I am not a member of the Chabad chasidus. I am yekka and my husband is of the sefardi-Italian mesorah.
But I respect ALL yidden especially those that, like me and my husband, have minhigim and mesoras that are not fully “mainstream” yeshivish-Litvish.
If you cannot accept all Yidden that fillow their poskim and mesorah, than YOU are מוציא עצמו מן הכלל – ישראל as we tell the בן רשע.
Yes, I admire Chabad and Breslov and Sefardim and Teimanim and Telzers and Mirrers and BMG’ers even Ponevetzers – kulom kedoshim, v’chulom osim retzon konom.
But what I am saying here is beyond your abilities. You think anyone that isn’t wearing your type of hat isnpart of klal yisroel. On the contrary.
mdd1 – I am not a member of the Chabad chasidus. I am yekka and my husband is of the sefardi-Italian mesorah.
But I respect ALL yidden especially those that, like me and my husband, have minhogim and mesoras that are not fully “mainstream” yeshivish-Litvish.
If you cannot accept all Yidden that follow their poskim and mesorah, than YOU are מוציא עצמו מן הכלל – ישראל, as we tell the בן רשע.
Yes, I admire Chabad and Breslov and Sefardim and Teimanim and Telzers and Mirrers and BMG’ers and even Ponevetzers – kulom kedoshim, v’chulom osim retzon konom!!
But what I am saying here is way beyond your abilities. You think anyone that isn’t wearing your type of hat isn’t part of klal yisroel. On the contrary!
And of course I admire the tremendous chassidus of the Hungarian, the chesed machines of Satmar, Square and others. And the royal chassidish Poilishe courts, the warmth of Bobov and Vishnetz and Beltz and so many other holy communities! Kulim ahuvim, kulom kedoshim, v’chulom osim b’ahavah v’turah retzon konom!!!
And of course I admire the tremendous chassidus of the Ungarian, the chesed machines of Satmar, Square and others. And the royal chassidish Poilishe courts, the warmth of Bobov and Vishnetz and of course Beltz and so many other holy communities! I love them all! Kulim ahuvim, kulom kedoshim, v’chulom osim b’ahavah v’yearah retzon konom!!!
I invite you to accept them! Admire them! You will be enriched from it. Come, join Klal Yisroel.
mdd1 – although my family custom is to permit the use chodosh in chutz la’aretz, apparently by your name calling of labelling me “Rebettzin Chabad”, you are unaware of the position stated by the Shulchan Aruch HaRav – which Chabad follow.
The Shulxhan Oruch Harav rules in 489:29 after quoting the basic opinion of Chadash being forbidden Midioraita and after considering the leniency of the B”ach, writes in 489:30 that – even for wheat harvested from a non-Jewish field – a “Baal Nefesh” (lit. an “owner of soul”) should be scrupulous and not rely on lenient rabbinic opinions.
Similarly, the author of the Rav Shulchan Oruch notes in a Responsa (as addendum to) vol. 5 of Shulchan Aruch HaRav that in generations prior to his the custom was to take the lenient approach (i.e. rely on B”ach’s leniency) but in his generation many have assumed the stringency of not consuming Chadash.
Also, note that I used as an example the probition of shaving which is d’Oraysa, a לא תעשה (possibly multiple), comparable to sukah…
But call me Chabad, call me Breslov, call me Satmar, call me Bobov, call me Mir, call me Yekka, call me Sefardi, call me whatever floats your boat, if it gives a yid הנאה, I am fine with it.
Not judging anyone but anybody who may have even partialy degraded a talmud chochom should look a gemoro brachot 4b. “one who belittles the words of a talmud chochom is chayav meiseh”. Fasting for a fallen sefer torah is up for debate, degrading talmuei chachomim is not. please do teshuvah to not be subject to the ruling of the quoted gemoro
RebbeClips, you just summarized exactly what has now been created, that: “Fasting for a fallen sefer torah is up for debate”. This was NEVER up for for debate over 2,000 years. It was POSHUT for every Yid that one must fast when seeing a Sefer Torah fall. Now, suddenly it is “up for debate”, a sofek, maybe only a custom kept by those not learning…THAT IS THE CHURBAN!
And look what else was created by this churban:
A presumably frum yid (mdd1) wrote: ” if you learnt Gemora and Poskim (and not only Tanya and Likutei Torah), you would have known what is chomur and what is less so. You do not compare de’Oraisos (Sukkah, Yoshon) with fasting over the fall of a seifer Torah”
Really?! Every frum yid always knew that a sefer Torah that falls to the ground is the UTMOST “chomur”! It is no less than TRAGIC!
If you fell asleep outside a sukkah (as the Gemorah is Sukkah tells us that many yidden did during simchas bais hashoevs – sleeping on each others shoulders – NOT in a sukkah) – is that TRAGIC? Do you fast? How can that more chomur than a sefer Torah on the floor?!
Or if you ate chodosh bizman hazeh and in chutz la’aretz – is that TRAGIC? Is it so chomur that it requires fasting?!
mmd1openly says that sukkah and yishon are far more serious than a sefer Torah dropped on the floor!
A presumably frum yid is screeching that sukah and yoshon are “more chomur”, and a sefer Torah on the floor is not such a big deal!
THIS is the churban caused by these Roshei Yeshevos.
I ask you, one week ago, if ANY rov or chassidic rebbe would tell his kehilah that there is no need to fast after a sefer Torah fell – wouldn’t there be an outcry (from these exact same ones that defend these roshei yeshivos)?!
Hypocricy at it’s finest.
Imagine if this all took place by the Modern Orthodox or Dati Leumi, and their rabbonim had given out this psak – the ENTIRE yeshivish oilom would be up in arms screaming about bizoyon haTorah! Yet when our Roshei Yeshivos give such a psak – they become infallible.
Maybe they are disqualified to pasken for their own yeshivos because they have negiyos!!
No godol or rov or rosh yeshiva is infallible!