Reprinted from Temple Institute:
(Click HERE for photos) Rabbi Moshe Tendler, rabbi of The Community Synagogue of Monsey, senior Rosh Yeshiva at Yeshiva University’s Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary, the Rabbi Isaac and Bella Tendler Professor of Jewish Medical Ethics and Professor of Biology at Yeshiva College, and son-in-law of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, paid a visit to the Temple Mount on Rosh Chodesh Tammuz, 5768, (Thursday, July 3, 2008), in the company of the Temple Institute’s Founder, Rabbi Yisrael Ariel, and Institute Director, Yehudah Glick. Joining them was Rabbi Tendler’s grandson Avraham.
During the course of the visit the group recited prayers, including Kadish, Birkat Kohanim, and Barchu. The group also sat as a Bet Din, (Rabbinical Court) to perform Zecher Lekidush Hachodesh, ( a re-enactment of the Temple era pronouncement of the New Moon by the Sanhedrin).
Rabbi Tendler declared that he intends to encourage his students as well as members of his community to ascend Har Habayit (the Temple Mount).
Join the official YWN WhatsApp status
137 Responses
nebach – what a chilul hashem and a bizayon to the gadol hador rav moshe zatzal that someone from his family should do such an aveira befarhesya – hashem yerachem
Will someone let me know if this is in accordance with Halacha? What is the Daas Torah on this? I have always be told that it is forbidden to go on Har Habais because we are Tomai? Is that correct?
Mazal Tov!
May this be the beginning of the liberation of Har HaBayit from the hands of the enemy!
Obviously he holds thats its mutter for some reason – does anyone know what the reason is? Maybe its not the exact spot –
to #3; no mazel tov yet. this is not the beginning of anything.
to #1 & 2–i dont know about the aveira you are talking about. thare are areas on har habais that are not kodesh. as a matter of fact, about 100 years ago the british had a municipal office there and if you needed a visa you had to go there and all peoples went and no one said it was asur.
never the less, i do think it is a bizayon for the so called RABBI tendler to go there. shame on him.
To 1 and 2
Here is one way of learning the Halach:
There is no halachic authority of the past or present that does not agree that there are permitted areas and forbidden areas of Har Habayit.
There are 4 areas of Har Habayit,
1 The Azara = Karet
2 The Ezrat Nashim = Issur Dirabanan
3. The rest of Har Habayit = 100% Mutar, but one must immerse in a Mikvah and no leather shoes
4 The Tosefet Hordus = No special status
Since Herod more than doubled the size of Har Habayit and we know where the additions are, mainly on the south and north, so we can walk from the editons in to Har Babayit proper, knowing that we just left the editions means that we can not be anywhere near the Makom Hamikdash and if we walk along from the south to the north via the eastern wall of Har Habayit there is still no chance that one will tread even near the Makom Hamikdash.
A map can be seen at
http://www.templeinstitute.org/birds_eye.htm
“To build the Temple, to make repairs and continued maintenance, or to remove something impure all constitute positive reasons for entering the forbidden areas of the Temple.” (Tractate Eruvim 105a, Torat Kohanim Emor 3,11 and the Rambam, Laws of the Temple 7,23, etc.) Also the Rambam wrote: “You are permitted to bring a dead body onto the Temple Mount and there is no need to even mention that a person impure from contact with a dead body can enter.” (Rambam, Laws of the Temple, Chapter 7, Law 15)
If one can bring a dead body onto Har Habayit than certainly anyone else can enter, and if one can even enter the Azara in order to “remove something impure” than certainly we can enter Har Habayit to try to lessen and ultimately remove the sovereignty of the Goyim from the Holy Mountain.
Aside from the commandment of removing the impure elements there is the positive Mitzvah of Morah Mikdash or showing reverence to the place of the Temple. When a Jew walks on the permissible parts of the Temple Mount he is actually fulfilling the positive commandment of Morah Mikdash. The Rambam clearly says that this command applies even when the Temple is not standing, and that we should fulfill it by “entering into the permitted areas” (Hilchot Beit HaBechira Ch. 7, 7).
Rav Moshe Tendler seems to be doing a good job at starting up a Machlokes. What will he think of next?!
I am sure that acc. to everyone there are certain places on har habayis that are mutar m’ikar hadin.
However, i think most poskim would say not to go up at all for fear of going in the wrong places.
#1 could explain what on earth you meant?
we are the biggest enemy to ourselves
so how can we be liberated from ourselves?
HaShem will reveal his annointed one, and the wicked will be destroyed……
well its not so pashut that its assur. obviously daas torah says not to go, just because there is a chiuv carus if you’re not careful.
however, according to halacha the issur to go on har habayis is only if you’re tamei sheretz, keri, etc. BUT NOT IF YOU”RE TAMEI MEIS!! if a person is tamei meis he IS allowed to walk on the Har Habayis up till the soreig.
The Soreig is several dozen feet away from the kosel (i believe its 16 amos away from the kosel).
The people that go on the Har Habayis have studied the Halacha and are very careful with all the dinim i.e. they go to mikva, take off their shoes, and most important they dont walk further then they are Halachicly allowed. (speak to your rov for more clarification)
Maybe we should be dan lchaf zchus. There are people who know where the boundaries of Har Habayis are. So let’s say R Tendler is one of them, still is it wise to anger the arabs, who may use this an an excuse to carry out their deadly plans, Rachmono Litzlon?
ditto #1!! why does he have to continue to publicly fight against Hashem’s Torah!
It’s an issur dioraisa to step on the temple mount.A person that could openly desecrate hashem’s name should not be seen or even mentioned on a frum website!
Baruch Hashem. Things begin to move.
To 1. and 2.:
If Klal Yisroel are allowed to bring korbonos tzibur betum’a, because tuma hutro / dchuyo betzibur, then you are allowed to ascend Har Habayis, isn’t it?
Now, there are places you are not allowed in even betum’a (like the place of the Heichal, the Kodesh Kodoshim, …). Those places are besofek where they are exactly.
But the places being visited nowadays are places where there is no such sofek.
From my point of view, the “gedolim” (wathever significance you stick to that word) have always systematicaly expressed themselves against ascendng Har Habayis for political reasons only.
It is interesting to note that, according to this article, the Jews have been allowed to pray!
Rambam Hilchos bais habechira 7:1-2
(א) מצות עשה ליראה מן המקדש שנאמר ומקדשי תיראו ולא מן המקדש אתה ירא אלא ממי שצוה על יראתו:
(ב) ואי זו היא יראתו לא יכנס אדם להר הבית במקלו או במנעל שברגליו או באפונדתו או באבק שעל רגליו או במעות הצרורין לו בסדינו ואין צ”ל שאסור לרוק בכל הר הבית אלא אם נזדמן לו רוק מבליעו בכסותו ולא יעשה הר הבית דרך שיכנס מפתח זו ויצא מפתח שכנגדה כדי לקצר הדרך אלא יקיפו מבחוץ ולא יכנס לו אלא לדבר מצוה:
As it states, it is assur to enter the har habayis except for a dvar mitzva. Sightseeing is not a dvar mitzvah, proving the secular anti-religious zionists have control over Har habayis is not a mitzvah. Going Davka! to incite the Arabs that they do not have total control over it, is not a mitzvah. But what do you expect from a man that falsely attacks the 3000 year old minhag of metzitzah bipeh claiming 5 factors that are typical of maternally transmitted herpes indicate the mohel is responsible. I have seen the final report on metzitzah an the chutzpah of these people is shocking. In their Hebrew report in Harefuah Febuary 2005, they print the poster that appeared in Jerusalem in 1900 (it is published in S’dei Chemed at the back of mereches hametzitza chalek bais) against changing any aspect of milah, with the most severe consequences, underneath is the caption: “Cherem Rabbanei yerushalayim neged metzitzah bipeh” the exact opposite of what the poster says. Both sdei chemed and harefuah can be found online. YWN usually deletes my post withs links, so I don’t post them.
Comment 2.,
A mais is allowed on har habayis, as is a tamai mais. However a toomah hayotza min hagoof is more stringent and a zav, bal keri, or niddah would need tevilah before going on har habayis. One cannot ascend with shoes or money or his walking stick, as in my previous post citing the Rambam. Entrance to the azarah is still prohibited, but that is all minor it is assur to go onto har habayis without a reason. Political dictates do not surpass halachic prohibitions.
“The group also sat as a Bet Din, (Rabbinical Court) to perform Zecher Lekidush Hachodesh, ( a re-enactment of the Temple era pronouncement of the New Moon by the Sanhedrin).”
I hope they didn’t sit in the azarah where:
a) They are not allowed in the first place.
b) It’s ossur to sit even for someone who’s allowed in the azarah.
c) Do they really know and understand hilchos kiddush hachodesh? It aint so simple.
Question: Did they have witnesses testify also, zeicher l’aidus?
#1 unless you are a godol biyisrael and on a bais din somewhere how dare you speak so disparagingly about a talmud chochom? And even if you are such a person and paskened that R’ Tendler was incorrect perhaps he paskend differently then you do based on his own research and understanding? thanks for keeping moshiach away a little longer
“Rabbi” Tendler seems to be as religious as the Neturei Karta. I hope he is not a member although it would not be surprising.
Clearly he had a Halachic basis for going. It amazes me how people on this site give out psak and dare to judge others. No wonder there is a mosque instead of a Bes HaMikdash on that Holy, Holy site…
Rabbi Moshe Feinstein did write it was possible to ascend the Temple Mount see Igrote Moshe, part 1, O.C. II, Siman 113, words starting with “Umah Shetaratzta”
halachicly it is one hundred percent muttar look in the rambam. Only a baal kerii is assur on the har habayis , so if you go to the mikva(a real koshur m’dioriesa)then a tamie mies is mutter on the har habayis. however, you must be VERY careful(chayuv karies) if you go into the makom Azoru therfore most people don’t go. there is also a big machlokes where excatly you can walk ( without shoes) bec. noone is sure where’s what. However please don’t call anyone a chotai
I do believe that there are those who know the boundries for where we’re actually able go to. So halachikly, Rabbi Tendler is no slouch and he’s more then likely not to have breached it.
On another hand, there’s a hashkafic framework that many of us on the “yeshivish” side adhere too, which is most likely different then Rabbi Tendlers.
So in no way would it be a chillul hashem, but rather a difference in hashkofik opinion.
Who cares. He’s already for the longest time out of our Tzibur. So he added a chiyuv koreis to his other endeavours as a machriv…
why is this not Loshon Hara
ziknei amei haaretz………
The group also sat as a Bet Din, (Rabbinical Court) to perform Zecher Lekidush Hachodesh, ( a re-enactment of the Temple era pronouncement of the New Moon by the Sanhedrin).
I’m confused.
I thought Rabbi Tendlers expertise was biology.
Is he an astronomer par exellance as well ?
A true renaissance man, Torah U Mada exemplified in its highest form, and a credit to the rabbinate.
My compliments!
This is the same Modern Orthodox character who caused untold harm to the Mohalim in New York City when he claimed (falsely) that they were causing herpes in babies by using “MeTziTza BePeh!”
there are certain parts of the har habayis that one can goto with tevillah. Its very complex.
what makes you a [1] POSEK, i would think that you’re being on the Inet would make u yourself doing aveiras befarhesya
and [2]are you sure that there is only 1 shita lhalacha, and that R’ Tendler,etc, dont know halacha, and that there are other shitot
people dont read, it says they sat at a bet din.
as we approach the 3 weeks, we should minimize the sinat chinam, loshon harav, and remove the dan lkaf choiva.
COOL it, u have nothing good, constructive to say, dont.
Even though he is a brilliant man, how could one person take it upon himself to go to the Har Habayis, against every Posek in the world that says it is Assur! It seems to me how a Rov could not only be blind because of his own personal agenda but also cause others to do the same Aveira, all for the sake of publicity.
Can everybody who comments please actually learn the halachos before commenting. ‘I heard this or that’ doesn’t qualify.
Question number one: Is a tamei mes assur on the Har Habayis or only in the Beis Hamikdash? Don’t answer without a source to back you up.
It seems that the “esteemed” Rabbi Tendler is on a pattern of defying the major institutions of Judaism,to augment his “progressive” resume. First Bris milah next this,I shudder to imagine what idea will come to this “great” mind to defame our torah and mesorah.
will someone please tell me why the SON IN LAW of rav moshe feinstein went on the har habayis the holyiest place in judaism for which we we are forbidden to go on.
Kol Hakavod!
this article appeared in Ha’aretz recently:
The ultra-Orthodox rabbinical consensus on banning the entry of Jews to the Temple Mount is showing cracks. This comes in the wake of a decision by religious Zionist rabbis to lift the ban and the increase of religious Zionist visitors to the site.
Rabbi Moshe Tendler, son-in-law of the ultra-Orthodox Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, visited the Temple Mount last Thursday with Temple Institute officials for the first time. Feinstein was one of the greatest Haredi adjudicators in the United States in the previous generation. Tendler, a bioethics expert and Talmud instructor at Yeshiva University, New York, is known mainly for his rulings on transplants and genetics.
Recently several ultra-Orthodox rabbis visited the Temple Mount but unlike Tendler, none would have his name released, due to sensitivity to this issue. Some two years ago, kabbalist Rabbi Dov Kook, who is married to Rabbi Yosef Elyashiv’s granddaughter, also covertly visited the mount.
Advertisement
Both the ultra-Orthodox and religious Zionist rabbis accepted the ban on Jews entering Temple Mount after the Six-Day War. The decision stemmed from the inability to determine the exact location of the temple and sanctuary, which worshippers could only enter after being purified.
The Chief Rabbinate put up a sign warning Jews not to enter Temple Mount, saying the penalty of doing so was divine punishment by untimely death or eternal excommunication. This position has not changed over the years.
However, an increasing number of religious Zionist rabbis have recently permitted Jews to enter Temple Mount. This followed an intensification of the struggle between Jewish and Muslim establishments over the Temple Mount and damage to Jewish areas.
Well-known religious Zionist adjudicators who have changed their approach include Kiryat Shmona Rabbi Zfania Drori, the chairman of the West Bank settlers rabbis committee, Rabbi Dov Lior, head of the hesder yeshiva in Ma’ale Adumim, Rabbi Nahum Rabinovitch and dozens of others.
Some of these rabbis said Jews must be permitted to enter the Temple Mount to liberate it from the Muslim occupation, which is denying any Jewish affiliation – historic, religious and national – to the site and its past.
It is actually a machlokes if one is allowed up there or not. There is up to a certain point that many rabonim say that you are allowed to walk to.
#1, you have no idea what you’re talking about and you’re speaking about someone who, whether everyone agrees with him or not, is far far FAR more advanced in learning than you are. Read up on the actual halacha before saying something like that publicly.
Did I miss something?
Isn’t it assur to up there? Then again, isn’t he the one which made the whole issue with metzitza bepeh?
What do the gedolim hold of him?
This guy sounds fishy to me…
incidentally, I was fairly sure that it was illegal to daven on har habayis because the arabs are basically in charge of it and they banned it. How’d they manage to get away with it?
he started with the mitzva of bris millah and now he is going to har habayis i guess it is “AVEIRAS GORERES AVEIRA”.
BY THE WAY THE TITLE “RABBI” SHOULD BE OMMITED
Mishne in avos mitzvah goreres mitzvah
his privious mitzva was to stop metzitza b’pah so this followes
Even if there might be a place to go on the Har Habayis that one is not Chayev kores for, is he sure that everyone will not go beyond that point? Did he inform everyone to go anywhere there one must tovel in a mikva keshera letevilas noshim? Or are people just going to say if he did then it’s ok.
Judging by the pictures, no aveira was committed. They didn’t go beyond the “chayil” line, which is where Tumas Hameys is ossur. Where they went is only ossur for a Baal Keri, which they took care of beforehand by going to a mikva.
Nevertheless, I’ve never seen any of Gedolei Yisroel ascend to Har Habayis, so evidently they don’t think it’s a good idea. It’s most likely for “political” reasons rather than halachic ones – not to be aligned with the tziyonim.
His problem stems from the fact that he is a professor of Biology at YU.
He’s schizophrenic. He can’t make up his mind whether his first loyalty is to the secular world or the Yeshiva World.
He is not getting karas anytime soon, he is already 85 years old.
to all you naysayers, all I can say is that I am sure the Gedolei Yisroel know the halacha a heck of lot better than you am haaratzim do, so please climb back into your holes and stop spreading so much sinas chinam. Just stop and think – as Tisha B’Av approaches – why the Bais Hamikdash was destroyed. It’s amazing how so called “learned” people can be so narrow minded.
did ANYONE on this forum learn the halachos before posting???
I assume RABBI Tendler did and knows the halacha better than most fools posting on this website
For those who write that
“Rabbi Tendler *is* Daas Torah”
why don’t you take some time and see and hear what he actually says about specific halachos.
see
http://www.dhengah.org/mbp/tendlervstendler.htm
to #18 matzahlocaol101
Your conclusion that the Rambam does not allow entering the permissible areas on H”H is wrong.
We know from the Rambam himself that he prayed on Har Habayis.
It is brought down in the Sefer Chareidim (Mitzvas HaTeshuva ), who quotes a letter that the Rambam wrote. The Rambam even tells us the exact date that he prayed on H”H. It was on Thursday, the sixth day of the month of mar-cheshvan 4,926 (842 years ago).
The chashash to be over issur kareth by going on to Har Habayith is 10%then the chance of over issur kareth by getting married.
maybe we should not get married – Chashash issur kareth!!
We cannot live without marrying we cannot live without Beth Hamikdash
I spoke to Reb Elyashiv personaly about this subject, (about 2 years ago), He told me “Hashem hears you as well on the other side of the wall & there is no need to put yourself into a sofek krisus (as you might step on something tomeh after t’vila & he’rev shemesh)for no reason”
Is not serving in the Isareli Army a direct violation of the Torah Rule “Al Taamod al dam reacha?
Please Stop Bashing a Yid, Rav, Tzaddik And Talmid Chacham. Where is the Ahavas Yisrael? People who write negative things about a fellow Yid Is Just preventing the Moshiach from coming. Pirkei Avos says not to judge people. There are frum people at risk because so many Jews hate each other exactly why the Bais Hamikdash was destroyed. Whatever Rav Tendler does is between him and Hashem. Pirkei Avos says that Hatred takes a person from this world. Derech Eretz Kadma LaTorah. The only way Moshiach will come is if we love all Jews, have Derech Eretz and dont judge our fellow Jews because we are all in it together as Kol Yisrael Arevim Ze LaZe. May the Moshiach come speedily in our days B’mehera Veyamenu Amen!
1) Halachah / da’as Torah are not what remain standing in a game of “inie, meenie, minie, moe.” Even IF there are credible opinions that permit this according to halachah, decisions between conflicting opinions have rules that must be followed.
2) These rules of p’sak include concepts such as mesorah, rov (majority), posek achron, minhag, yachid v’rabim, sofek d’oraysa, etc.
3) Halachah is determined sometimes on the basis of need for gedorim.
4) It is irrefutable that the vast majority of poskim for many generations have strictly forbidden entry to the Har HaBayis under any circumstances. These poskim are all direct links to mesorah and are the very ones Torah Jews “of all colors” turn to when in need (life/death issues, etc.). They are the ones the Jewish and non-Jewish media quote as being the “leaders” of the Torah world.
5) Even IF going there would be permitted, is it right to show there is pirud among our ranks. His going up shows the entire Arab and non-Arab world that our claims to the absolute holiness of this spot are untrue. What has he gained? What has he accomplished for Klall Yisroel?
6) If you believe, like many do, that this will anger many of those that would like to see us wiped off the map entirely, then what has he gained?
7) Every time we don’t understand something our Gedolim say or do, we seem to say it is for political reasons. Maybe they are smarter than we are.
8) It is well known what our Gedolim hold of this individual.
Tendler is a strong proponent of zecher l’yiddishkeit.
#1 What aveira? All he had to do was toivel to go on Har Habayis…You and your ilk had better learn halacha or klal Yisroel is in trouble. And to anyone who desparaged Rabbi Tendler, you might want to ask michila. Because according to Rashi on the gemara (Hamivazeh talmidei Chachomim – kiddushin??) youre an apikoiress. Rabbi Tendler can wipe the floor with (most of) you (yeshiva boys) in learning.
Please Stop Bashing a Yid, Rav, Tzaddik And Talmid Chacham. Where is the Ahavas Yisrael? People who write negative things about a fellow Yid Is Just preventing the Moshiach from coming. Pirkei Avos says not to judge people. There are frum people at risk because so many Jews hate each other exactly why the Bais Hamikdash was destroyed. Whatever Rav Tendler does is between him and Hashem. Pirkei Avos says that Hatred takes a person from this world. Derech Eretz Kadma LaTorah. The only way Moshiach will come is if we love all Jews, have Derech Eretz and dont judge our fellow Jews because we are all in it together Kol Yisrael Arevim Ze LaZe. May the Moshiach come speedily in our days B’mehera Veyamenu Amen!
I doubt the editor will even let this through but I’ll give it a try.
I love YWN and check in on regular basis, you guys do a great job. But this news clip is a total embarrassment to this website and whoever the editor is. Very cheesy, very, classless, 100% slander.Poor judgement. There was no “Y” “W” from the YWN in this post. The only reason this is “news” is because this is Rabbi Tendler. Numerous frum individuals make this same trip to Har Habais every day. And I am not here to say that getting so close is right or wrong- I am not das torah. I could not care less about R. Tendler and I have no connection to him in any way- neither do all of you but this sure makes good gossip!! We all heard about what he allegedly did but YWN did u need to go this far? If there was an article in the NYP about an average frum guy who allegedly did any immoral crime YWN would not post it on the site. And rightfully so. We have enough problems in the frumma world already do we really need to start with some “nobody” getting a little too close to har habais? YWN all you did was stir up negativity. You should think about R Tendlers family. Nothing positive came out of your post.
I did not read all the comments. All I can say is this:
I was in Eretz Yisroel recently and when I went to Har Hazeisim and looked out at the Makom Hamikdash now populated by our worst enemies, I became very emotional and all I could do thruogh my tears was recite the Perek Tehillim “Elo-kim bau Goyim Nachalosecha…” I did not even desire to go on to htis Makim Kadosh — the matzav is too heartbreaking. May the Geulah arrive soon when we will all be eloowed to acsend to the Bais Hamikdosh with out any shaylos or machlokes.
before anyone judges rabbi moshe tendler you should realize that he knows more torah then most if not all of the people who post on this site. i feel that it is very unlikely that rav moshe feinstein would have chosen any of you to be is his son-in-law. there are also many issues of loshan harah and mevazeh of a big talmed chacham.
if we want to rebuild the beis hamikdash on har habayis, so all those who are posting these horrible comments about rabbi tendler can actually go onto har habayis i think we should start working on ourselves before judging others actions. we should all be zoche to see binyan beis hamikdash bekarov
Bubulah:
I was thinking the same thing. According to the Chafetz Chaim it’s assur (many issurei deoraisa) if you know that the conversation that you start will lead to lashon hara.
I am also a big fan of YWN and think they do a tremendous service for klal yisorel. I think that certain posts need to be given a second thought. e.g. Rabbi Tendler a more modern Rav from YU on a website with more yeshivish readers with another controversial stories.
And to all those who have made disparaging remarks, even if your conclusions are correct, I hope your statements are l’shem Shamayim and not to vent your own anger.
P.S. Those who have criticized should be aware of other possible ways to learn the sugya.
Would everyone please calm down!
There are very great Gedolim on both sides of the issue, those who go up should give Kavod to those who refrain and those who do not not go up should give Kavod to those that do ascend.
The Machloket must be Lishma! If you want to argue that is good, but please bring your mikorot and do not G-d forbid denigrate another Jew, especially a Talmid Chachum like Rav Tendler.
Thank you,
Yosef
“i feel that it is very unlikely that rav moshe feinstein would have chosen any of you to be is his son-in-law.”
Comment by yosefn — July 9, 2008 @ 12:26 pm
Reb Moshe didn’t choose him either…..
Its amazing how any Rabbi who deals with modern issues (not including how many hechshers should be on a chicken) is disrespected. Where were the “Yeshiva” Rabbis when holy land was given to arabs? Where are the “Yeshiva Bochurs” when the Israeli Army is so overstrched that women needto be drafted? Which Yeshiva Rabbis have been involved in getting the three hostage soldiers back? Its easy to put someone down when you sit on the sidlines like Iyov did.
#69, You write:
“that it is very unlikely that rav moshe feinstein would have chosen any of you to be is his son-in-law.”
I got news for you, That R’ Mosher Tendler will admit if you just ask him.
R’ Moshe Feinstein Z”L never actually chose R’ Tendler……
ask him …..
You are a real idiot for not listening to me, and you will have to answer for this.
Do people ever learn?
Just because you disagree with someone doesnt mean you can insult them. No “yeshivash” Rov would EVER do that, You can have a machlokes with kavod
If R’ Feinstein ZT”L (EVERYONES rosh yeshivah) considered R’ Tendler a Rov, who are any of us to say he is not.
It is well known that R’ Moshe ZT”L consulted his son-in-law when deciding issues of halacha and science.
metzitza bepeh causes herpes, it is a proven scientific fact. Does that mean we should change how we do is an appropriate Torah discussion.
But no one should ever talk about a Rov in such away. Reading this collumn it is clear why we will soon observe Tisha B’Av again
#51 – that might be the most brilliant comment I’ve ever read on YWN. Shoiteh.
#1 – I’m pretty sure the comment you made is a lot worse than what R’ Tendler did. Now, tzadik, are you going to ask mechila?
What is going on here? It’s permissible, it’s not permissible? I trust that Rabbi Moshe Tendler would have looked into the situation and above that had others he conferred with and concluded what they did and in the way it was done, was permissible.
he is enraging the natiions . thousands of jews have died since churban bayis shainy because the were suspected of revolt by taking the bayis back . shortly before the chevron massacaer rabbi kook made his “demostration” at the “kotel” and helped enrage the arabs and caused the death on dozens of jews . r’l . if someone dies g-d forbid,he too will have blood on his hands .
All the Gedolim of the past generations new that tere are areas of Har Habayis which might be permitted. Nobody, though, dared to go up there either because of the great Keushah or because of fear of Ch”V transgressing a sin
the biggest shame is that most people simply miss the point. why is it that controversial people must always do something that draws attention to themselves.is everything always about mutar and asur or does common sense and proper hashkofo ever play a role? when will people truly worry about kovod hatora and kvod shomayim and stop acting for their own aggrandizement? May hashem take pity and help us erase all the chillulei hashem made by this family and others like him
To Fromyu #76 . It is well known that Rabbi Feinstein ZT”L consulted Rabbi Tendler on issues of Science. The rulings were ultimately issued by Rabbi Feinstein.
to #73 who wrote:“Yeshiva” Rabbis when holy land was given to arabs? Where are the “Yeshiva Bochurs” when the Israeli Army is so overstrched that women needto be drafted? Which Yeshiva Rabbis have been involved in getting the three hostage soldiers back?
THE”YESHIVA RABBIS” were here during the worst times, learn your history about the yishuv hayoshan and how the chardim toughed it out through thick and thin not to leave the holy city.
the army reasons for drafting woemn have nothing to do with overstreached! learn your history! Do you live in Eretz Yisrael. As to the third issue you raise about pidyonshvuim, it is something that bothers me very much, where is the chardei community? people that I was weird for adding the solders names to my tehlim list! I am very chasdic and not zionistic, but I care about my fellow jew, even if he don’t got payeos and a beard! Last week when I went to kever Rachel, I asked the chaylim who were on duty what there names where so I could daven for them. They were shocked that someone who looks like me even spoke to them, and were really touched that I offered to daven for them, there response was “rock yehudim, aiyn kmo achim” (only jews, there is nothing like brothers) Sorry to change to topic but since MarcGreen brought it up. . . .
Woah- some ppl really have nothing better to do then point out how so and so is not as frum as they are. I bet most ppl do things more terrible then going to the temple mount on a daily basis, it’s just easier to say “what he did is worse” so that you don’t have to take a good look at your (yes- I’m sure you too have d’oraysah) transgressions.
Rav Tendler is a renowned posek, there are others to rely on, if he desires to go to places that are allowed on the temple mt, go for it.
Can someone please clarify for me when it is mutar to talk lashon hrah about rabbonim and when it is not. It seems from reading the different posts on Yeshiva World that when someone from outside of the “charedi” camp does something that some may not agree with it is muttar to talk and post lashon harah and rechilus about that person, as is what is going on on this thread. However, should someone in the charedi camp do something controversial it is always kosher and with the blessing of “daas torah” and we are not permitted to comment on it. Double standard?
Absolutely amazing. Most of you have no idea who Rav Moshe Tendler is, what he stands for, what kind of a rav he is etc. This article was on the Temple Institute website not the Jerusalem Post, NY Times or even the Yated. Clearly it was not for publicity as some ‘people’ here have tried to say. Rav Tendler is one of the most learned of rabbonim and an individual who does not follow the pack, simply because its easier. Halachah follows the TORAH, not “das torah” whatever that is today. He is a Rav who actually works, not just in the Torah world as a ROSH YESHIVA in RIETS (for those who don’t know: RIETS stands for the Rabbi Isaac Elchonon Theological Seminary) but also as a tenured professor of biology at Yeshiva University. I know for most of you, if its not Touro, that kodesh kdoshim of higher education, its not kosher, but thats another sad discussion. The world of science and the world of Torah ARE together and only a fool would think otherwise.
Its about a month to Tisha B’av and I hope that the gedolim on this web site, who are so quick to say such terrible things about a Rav, who has lived a life of Torah for himself and his shul, remember why another year will and must go by without all of us being able to walk on the entire Har Habyit.
#88 “…What would you say if I claim that six million Jews died because the Gedolim of that era were guilty in keeping them in Europe? And, in doing so, they caused them to die in their millions?
I would never say that because we are only mortals and no one knows the future…”
I just read a fascinating article which disputes your assetion. It was not the Gedolim that kept the Religious Yidden out of Israel, it was the secular zionists that worked with the british to not give clearance to the Religious community to go to Israel. (either Mishpocha of Hamodia magazine – I can’t remember). so… therefor you can’t say not for the reason that you mention, rather becase it is not true!
#88- “And, lest anyone make any comment about the author of this hetter, he was a talmid muvhok of R’ Akiva Eiger!” Check your facts. R’ Akiva Eiger disagreed with him, as did the Chasam Sofer. He was not a talmid muvhok, he wanted to get his approbation for his shittah- and was denied!
mdlevine — The attack on the Gedolim is merely a libel that has zero basis in any reality. It is used to “enfer” why the zionists collaborated with the Nazis ym’s (i.e. Rudolf Kastner ym’s — who’s famous trains was not intended by him to save anyone but his family and his zionist crony friends who constituted 95% of the passengers, that he traded with Adolf Eichmann ym’s in exchange for Kastner giving up the lives of all of Hungarian Jewry — by not revealing what he already knew that the Nazis were shipping Jews to the gas chambers) and the zionists blocking the “trucks for Jewish lives” deal that the Vaad tried (and almost was successful) to negotiate, so that enough Jews should be murdered that the zionist would receive sufficient international sympathy to establish their State.
> He was not a talmid muvhok, he wanted to get his approbation for his shittah- and was denied!
Actually R’ Zvi Hirsh Kalisher WAS a talmid muvhak. Rabbi Akiva Eiger did NOT disagree with him (the Aruch laNer did) – he defered the question to the Hatam Sofer.
The Hatam sofer paskened that he does not agree regarding most korbanot but he does agree that it is possible to bring a korban pesach baZman haZeh.
Please learn a bit about the subject before you write about it.
Chardal613
Interesting. I would like to look that one up. Can you give me the Marah Mikoma in S/T Chasam Sofer. Thanks.
I was just wondering who, of the comments that have been so critical of rabbi tendler, can name one thing they know about his shittos besides for metzitzah b’peh and this har habayis post? anybody?
Yerovom ben Nevot was also a Talmid Chochom who could ‘wipe the floor’ with most of his generation.
SO to Do’eg ho’Adomi.
And let us not forget the wily old man – Achitofel
(these people who were all the sharpest minds and biggest scholars of the generation have no chelek in Olam haBo, an honor most people of much lower stature, can never even dream of earning)
The shulchan Oruch says that a Talmid CHcohom who does not exhibit yiras Shomayim – does not have a din Talmid CHchom.
All of this might not apply to R’ Tendler. Maybe he is indeed a Yorei SHomayim.
But his scholarship would be irrelevant if he just uses it like a weighty axe. ANd all of commentators who only look at his ‘scholarship’ are terribly mistaken in their general Yiddishkeit. You know Saul Lieberman was a ‘talmid chohcom’ too.
It is a big condemnation many of the commenters here is that all they care about is how ‘smart’ and scholarly an individual is.
Can anyone vouch for his Yiras Shomayim? WHy have you not? ( I do not mean too insinuate that he is not and that is why you did not say it – but shame on you for ignoring that which makes or break a person from being bichlal an emese talmid chochom,who deserves that which Halocho accords a Talmid CHohom.
The bottom line is what he did did here, seems on the face of it, seems to be a cheap political stunt and as such it is something that needs to be responded to.
I do not think someone with Yiras SHomayim would purposely put themselves into a situation of sofek Koreis. or violate an ban that has beeen effect for many years (even if one has done his super scholarly research and come to a conclusion that there is room to ignore the ban- there is no pressing issue here except cheap politics and name making)
From the pictures this seems to be a guided pleasure trip, everone seems to be very at ease and at home, a poritz in G-ts Gortin, if one is not capable of feeling or at least acting in accordance with the Kedushas haMakom lichoira one should not enter.
The people condemning R’ TEndler are generally justified.
While attacking him personally is indeed most probably out of place, condeming actions that are poretz geder are helpful as they fortify the breaches he had made in our perception of Kedushas haMikdosh. THis is not simply ‘sinas chinam’ This is a healthy Jewish heart reacting to witnessing a chilul of kedushah.
Of course if YWN would not have publicized this stunt our perceptions would not have been puncutred and shame on YWN for doing this, but once it is out in the open one must react by condemning strongly and vocally to the pritzas geder.
Rabbi of Berlin,
The diyyu about Korban Pesach is irrelevant to the discussion since the whole heter is based on tuma hutra b’tzibbur. that which is not relevant accept by a korban tzibbur.
rabbig,
R’ Moshe in OC 2 113is not matir going up to Har Habais. He is just correctting R’ Greenblatt that it is not true that a Tomei Mais cannot go up to Har haHabyis, only beyond the Chayl – after tevila and/or 7 days if chashash ziva exists.
But R’ Moshe concludes there that indeed the reason Shlukhan Arukh omits dinim of Har Habayis might be because of the sofek of where the Chayl beings. so as R’ Elyoshiv pointed out, the whole makom Har haBayis is a sofek issur kores. Hence the Shulkan Oruch does not need to tell how to act there since we PRACTICALLY cannot be there anyway. Even if in theory it is mutar.
WADR, R’ Tendler indeed knows more Torah than me, but that does not mean anything. There are many schoalrs who could wipe the floor with him in the Yeshiva world (and in YU as well) who would not dare do what he did. R’ Hershel Shechter, Shlitas, has publicly condemned him in the past for other things.
The fact remains he is not a big enough person to permit such a thing and to do so is trmendous chutzpa. Maybe he is as big in Torah as some of my Rebbeim in Yeshiva or the Rov of my community.
But a Maggid Shiur or a Community Rabbi/Posek should also knw his place and know when to shut up and let the real Giants speak.
E.G. R’ Moshe Heinemann is a gigantic Talmid CHochom, but he too when all is said and done is a community Rov and Posek. Not a Godol haDor (he himself doesn’t consider himself a Posek as he claims he just follws and applies what he sees in other seforim i.e. he is not a mechadesh in his psak and if something requires going beyond what is ‘mefurush’ in poskim he will ask someone bigger than him.)
How some poeple jump to call everyone who knwos more Torah than they do ( especially if they are famous) a ‘Godol’ is quite troubling.
Let us have a sense of proportion.
The poinnt that I make of couse in post #95 is that it would be interesting to know how much if anything you people know about a person (aside from metzitza b’peh) before you write such harsh, and perhaps slanderous, things about someone. Putting issurim aside for the sake of this point, wouldn’t it be simply unintelligent to post things about someone with such conviction, when you cant even name a few shittos or even know anything about the man aside from an article or two in a newspaper?
#59
Wow! In my life I don’t think I ever heard something so remarkably stupid!!! and yes if in your marriage you think you’ll be over issur kares even 10% then yes you should not get married! that’s what you have rabbanim for. space in!!
I have not read all the comments, and this may have been said already, but going up on the outlying parts of har habayis is mutar as it really is not har habayis(it is herod’s extention). I am almost positive that a tamey mais may go on the har habayis(as it is considdered machaneh leviah) so if Rav Tendler went to the mikvah(for any tzaras, zav, keri, etc.) and had Haerev shemash it should be mutar.
The only issue remaining is which parts are Har Habayis and which parts are also part of the Azarah. Certianly the edges of the original(i.e. not the herodian extention)mountian were not part of the azarah.
Normally I do not post messages on blogs, since they are a waste of time and they seem to attract the lowest elements of our society. However, Rabbi Moshe Tendler is both a great man and my Rebbe, and I will not be guilty of allowing him to be degraded by vulgar people without protesting.
And, unlike the vast majority of you bitter fools, I have no problem signing my real name to my comments and standing by my words.
Shame on you.
The self-proclaimed “Yeshiva world” blows a lot of steam about respect for Talmidei Chachamim and following “Da’as Torah”. Of course, only certain yeshivos merit to be part of this exclusive “Yeshiva world”; other yeshivos are smugly looked down upon as not being “real” yeshivos or part of this world.
Da’as Torah is code for the right to have an opinion about anything, and no one outside their narrow circles is so privileged. Yet, there are really no opinions in the world, only a party line. If the greatest of their Gedolim decided that studying science, working for a living, asking a girl out on a date, etc. is perfectly okay, he would be summarily stripped of his Da’as Torah. The same man who is assumed to be infallible and impossible to comprehend today would be thrown out like garbage tomorrow if he went against the party line. Da’as Torah comes and goes according to the pre-determined whims of an intellectual mob, who reserve the right to ridicule and abuse those they disagree with.
The rabbinic leaders of this exclusive world are supposed to be universally revered without question, and any implication that they are less than perfect, let alone far less than that, is met with a violent response. Of course, rabbinic leaders who do not subscribe to the narrow-as-a-pin ideology of the “Yeshiva world” are not considered to be rabbis altogether, let alone leaders who should be respected. At most the “Yeshiva world” will derisively refer to such rabbis as leaders of Modern Orthodoxy, which is a clever way of feigning respect for them while simultaneously dismissing them as irrelevant to the “frum community”. Yet, again, THEIR leaders are supposed to relevant to everyone, and pity the one who suggests otherwise.
The “Yeshiva world” and its anonymous henchmen get to decide who has “Da’as Torah” and who doesn’t. A clear formula has never been provided for us. We’re just supposed to follow the crowd and cower before whoever yells the loudest.
This is not a new phenomenon. I only wonder how this Olam Ha’sheker has gained such dominance and how those of us who know better have meekly allowed this to happen.
Notice how Rabbi Moshe Tendler, a true Talmid Chacham and one of the finest people I have been privileged to encounter, is referred to in the most vulgar and degrading of terms by Chelmites who aren’t worthy to shine his shoes. Notice how they presume superior knowledge, while presuming that Rabbi Tendler needs permission from their perverse “Da’as Torah” to make a decision.
These same monkeys would throw a fit if anyone suggested Rabbi Elyashiv, or Rabbi Kanievsky, or some such figure were less than perfect, yet a Talmid Chacham outside their immediate comfort zone is fair game for the most disgusting of attacks.
Did THEY consult their vaunted “Da’as Torah” before posting this “expose” on a great man who needs approval from no one, least of all anonymous fools? For that matter, didn’t their “Da’as Torah” forbid the Internet?
People, wake up. Our Judaism and our Torah have been hijacked by people who resort to intimidation and intellectual suppression to insure that their community speaks with one voice. They have created a perverse religion of “Da’as Torah” that continues to drift farther and farther away from the Torah, even as their proclamations in the name of Torah become louder and more shrill.
No one from this community will stand up and defend Rabbi Tendler for the sake of Kavod HaTorah. Let our community, whose membership is diverse, contemplative, intelligent, educated, worldly, and self-supporting stand up for itself. Let us no longer allow others to proclaim themselves exclusive title-holders to a “yeshiva world”, or “Da’as Torah”, or frumkeit, or in charge of who is a Gadol and who is not even a rabbi.
Who are these people anyway, and what gives them any influence if not our own cowardice?
Well, YOUR cowardice, perhaps. They don’t frighten me. But you do — if you will continue to stay silent.
Signed as always,
(Rabbi) Chananya Weissman, privileged to be a talmid of Rabbi Moshe Tendler
Mr. Weissman:
YOU are a KOIFER. I do not use that word lightly. I do not use that word often. I don’t believe I’ve used that on anyone previously on a blog. And I do not call Rabbi Tendler that. I do not know of him well enough. You, from your writings, I do. And you are an unbridled pure koifer. YOU attack Rabbonim, Talmidei Chachomim, Gedolei HaTorah, etc. constantly in your hate-filled demagogic writings. And YOU have the chutzpah to berate ANYONE for attacking YOUR Rabbi?
It is YOU who represents the “lowest elements of our society.” It is YOU who attacks anything the Torah deems holy, in your spiteful writings. Get rid of your hate and return to the fold of the Torah, which is always open to you despite your history of spitting on it.
tendler is a biology teacher – not a rav
Weissman is a clown who attacks all things Jewish. Read his past rantings. He has a problem with just about every minhug, chumra, and anything MidiRabonon.
He insinuates and not so subtly attacks all Rabbonim who don’t agree with his “reforms.” He is of the “Yeshiva” Chavevei Torah mold. He would prefer a Bishop to a Rabbi.
93- “Please learn a bit about the subject before you write about it”. I actually did. Just because someone thinks that he is a Talmid Muvhak, does not make that the reality. (Ironic, isn’t it, that on THIS post we should happen upon this issue!). The Drishas Tziyon misquoted the Chassam Sofer’s letter back to him. Look at the original letter, and you will clearly see what both he and R’ Akiva Eiger hold about this issue.
Well said, Rabbi Chananya Weissman.
Finally a breath of fresh air on this disturbing thread!
Way to go Rabbi weissmann We need to stay together whst else is new any gadol they do not sgrecwith gets attacked Rav herzog ztl the Ravztl Rav ahronztl Rav kookztl his son Rav tzviztl rav shaoiraztl the list goes on and on Rav Tendler shilta is a rosh yeshivs and a posek HE IS ONE OF OUR GEDOLOYIM AND HE CAN MAKE UP HIS OWN MIND WITH OUT RUNNING IT WITH YOUR LEADERS
RAV Schachter shlita DOES BELIVE YOU COULD GO EXACTLY WHERE RAV TENDLER WENT AND BTHW RHS IS A GADOL AND POSEK AND CAN OUT LEARN ANY ONE OF YOURS
HE DOES NOT NEED THE PREMMISION OF YOUR CAMP
PLEASE JOSEPH FROM SATMAR STOP GIVING US HISTORY LESSONS WE ALL KNOW THAT THE YESHIVA WORLD AND THE SATMAR WORLS DOES NOT BELIEVE IN TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT HISTORY WE CATCH YOU ALL THE TIME LYING ABOUT HISTORY (ARTSCROLL) LEARNING THE HISTOERY OF ZIONISM FROM A STAMAR IS LIKE LEARNING THE HISTORY OF THE REFORM MOVEMENT FROM TEMPLE EMMUNAEL. YESHIVA PEOPLE KNOW YOU MIGHT BE IN THE MAJORITY BUT YOUR KIDS ARE LEAVING LIKE FKYS AND THE YU BEIS MIDRASH IS FULL EVERY NIGHT TWENTY FOUR HOURS BTHW ANY ROSH YESHIVA AT YU OR MERKZ OR GUSH CAN OUTLEARN ANY OF YOU WITH YOUR HATRED AND CHUMARS AND YOUR DISRESPECT FOR A RAV YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH LETS ASK THE FAMILY OF RAV NISSON ALPERTZTL
Dear Rav Chananya Weissman,
Thank you so much for saying what should have been said long ago!
You know CHananya,
The COnservative Jews (maybe even Reform) can write the exact same letter you have and claim how unfair the Modern Othodox world is.
After all who is to say that their Rabbis are wrong? THey do have Teshuvos and scholars etc. you know.
WADR, R. Tendler knows more TOrah thna the average Jew but that does not make him a Godol b’Torah and on an issue such this – where you are brekaing hundreds of years of precedent – and NO OTHER Gedolei torah have dared to do so even though evry one knwos that Tumas meis is mutar until the chayl, just we do not know for certain where that is today so the entire place has ban off limits.
To play games – well I know for sure this part is OK – flys in the face of a Mesorah of Hundreds of years which says – the area bichlal is a sofek kores – best not touch it. But Yes, MO people do not give a hoot about respecting Mesora for its own sake. We know better cuz we are more learned etc. ad nauseam. the poskim who lived before the Modern Era of critical scholarship that exists at YU were cute but hopelessly unsphisticated. SO goes YU hashkofa thinking.
See Ramban – this is exactly why the Torah Does not give Reason for the Mitzvos – because Yokels like the nudniks at YU who think they are smarter than G-d will come to bad conclusions based on thier “KNOWLEDGE”. A la Shlomo haMelech.
The Torah is above our ability to percive it. It is G-dly knowlege – something that YU hashkofa does not accept. Like the Ramban curses Aristotle – he only accepts that which he can see and master.
For R. Tendler to go w/o approval from a Godol B’Yisroel which he is clearly not, (again NOT EVERY RABBI is a Godol b’Torah even if he knows more than the avergae joe) is very chutzpadig and a tremendous pritzas geder.
If He cared about Kovod haTOrah he would not have stepped there in the first place.
WHat about the Kovod haTorah of the hunderds of years of Rabboinim who did not step on Har HaBayis? DId they not have a sufficent yearning for kedushas mokom hamikdosh?
There is an article From R’ Mayer Twerski (from YU mind you so you see that B”H yes Tzadikkim b’Sdom and of course there are many others and naturally they are not the apple of the administrations eye. R’ Hershel Scechter has to this day not gotten his BA since he refused to take courses which are assur) where he says that there are poskim and there are poskim. Some issues – e.g. that are nogea to Klal Yisroel as a whole – and ascending Har haHaBayis is certianly such an issue – are reserved for only the Tzameret of Poskim. WADR, R. Tendler is not there and therefor for him to place himself in such a position is a chutzpa nora.
You claim he is one of the finest people you have ever meant – that is very nice but this statement is worthless unless we assume that your edus is that of somone whose defintin of ‘fine person’ means someone who strives only to serve Hashem. Of course if your definition of a fine person is some MOdern Othodox mumbo jumbo – like be a Jew inside and a goy on the street. Be Educated. Be Self-Supporting (do not forget that working is a klolo, it is not something to be glorified. Ta’avas momon is not a good thing. of course some poeple need to work and there is nothing wrong with that, that is where Hashem put them and there is a Avoda there to – but even there the working is just a means for a different form of Avoda than being in Kodesh a whole day long – not an ends in and of itself – and anyone who thinks otherwise is unfortunately trading an Eternal World and Eternal Truth for Zevel Zevalim, a fleeting cloud, dust in the wind, guz cheesh v’no’oofa, i.e. even someone who works – the only valuable thing (that is not meant to a put dpwn, I hope you get my point) he is doing all day is the Amida b’Nisayon and all the Mitzvos and Ma’asim Tovim he can accomplish in his particular circumstance. Having a title – Dr. or President JD etc. in oilam ha’Emes is more degrading than cleaning horse stables here in this world. If you have it – just cuz you need it so nu, someone who cleans horse stables also serves the kiyyun haOlam – but he is not attached to his title – so too a person who ‘happens’ to have such a title but makes nothign of it – it is no big deal – but to switch that in the olam ha’Emes speak pile of manure with real Gold of simply doing Torah And Mitvos – IS there any Sichlus greater than that? )
See Rashi in this weeks Parsha where Bolok ridicules Bilaam for not being birshus atzmo. This is the Difference between a goy and a Yid and unfortunately the MO world has swalloed it up.
We will MAKE A NAME FOR OURSELVES. I WILL CREATE MYSELF, Thank YOu.
If Al Sharpton would tell me that R. Tendler was one of the finest people it would not really help either. SO thank you very much for your opionion but , so what? YOu obviously went to YU and might very well have their krum, secular Humanist hashkofo (albeit with a Torah dressing AKA gilui Ponim b’Torah)
The fact remains that the actions done b’Rabbim are a tremendous prituz geder and indicate very bad things.
This might have been a lapse of sorts and from this one incident one should not judge RT, of course, one should never jusge a Yid negatively at all but the act is cetrtainly one to condemned and be misrachek from. (and the people who perpetrate these acts – while one needs to love as Jews – this does not contrdict the need to be misrachek from Reshoim who flaunt our Mesorah)
Same thing with YU people – as you can see their shitos are to be condemned for what they are but that does not translate into a personal condemnation. Even they nedd to be nisrachek from.
If you cannot understand how this is possbile see the follwing words from Gedolei haChassidus:
“Even if you see one is a Rosho Gomur – still be Dan him l’Chaf Zchus”
This does not say – pretend he is not a Rosho. Be an idiot. It does not say be mischaber with him. We are talking only about Danning. (extenuationg circumstances as we find even by goyishe courts etc.)
But if one loses perspective of what is right and wrong than one has no Yddishkeit and the same Godol haChassidus writes elsewhere:
“A person who justifies a ROsho is a Rosho himself”
And Now CHanaya, for your other point.
About anonimity.
You see there is story that goes as a s following – a bochurel was skippig seder on Malchei Yisroel where he was stam battling. He saw his ROsh Yeshiva coming down the block. He continued walking with his head held up high – not embarassed at all – his ROsh Yeshiva said – a za a chutzpa – meila you skip seder – maybe you needed a break or whatever – but to pretend everything is OK. This is not b’seder.
One of the traits of being a Jew is a Bayshon.
Now I am embaraasedd to be bichlal writing this stuff and getting invloved in this shtuss which most prpbably is a total waste of time from I should be doing in life. Nu I have a Yetzer Hora and he is winnign right now. (getting the news sent to email and checking it every now and then is onr thing but certianly all of this blogging is mamesh sreifas hazman.) WHat can I tell you – this garbage is moishech, hopefully this will be my last post. (until YWN posts another immflammatory thing someone else does.)
But I know and most people here know this is a really embarrasing thing to be doing. It is most certainly beneath me.
(You do not need to be embarrased on this level since really you have nver written and you are just writing to defend someone you hold dear, of course why are you reading all this nonsense in the first place, but oh well, join the club)
Now on another level – when I write here my thoughts and most writers for sure are totally off the cuff and I do not know if when I read it a week from now if I will thoroughly embarassed from the etzem things I write.
You see even in your for the most part dignified post you stoop to levels lower than what you accuse your Rebbe’s detractors.
You could have maintained a dignified tone and been much more effective.
But throwing around gratuitous insults “vulgar people” and “monkey” makes you just as much a part of the “dumb uneducated masses” as anyone else. Now the truth is this should not be done with or w/o a name but having your name attached to crass behavior is that much worse. or just embarassing.
The following entire sentecnce is totally inaproriate and not called for: “These same monkeys would throw a fit if anyone suggested Rabbi Elyashiv, or Rabbi Kanievsky, or some such figure were less than perfect, yet a Talmid Chacham outside their immediate comfort zone is fair game for the most disgusting of attacks.”
This is what we try to avoid by leaving our names out. SO you can go a head and quote inappropriate sentences from my posts – but B”H my name is not there.
to clarify the last poiont – it is not that we write inapproriate things l’chatchila. (like you probably did not intend to either)
but he nature of the beast called internet posting about religious political issues is for sure something that brings peoples dark sides even if the motivation is partially kinas Hashem Tzivokos. The line between rigthtoues and stam anger is very very very very thin (as yo yourself have demonstrated). It is because of this ever present danger – best to at least not let my name appear here.
Of course best to not post altogether, but this is a batlle we are waging with the Yetzer.
Feif Un, bloomy, chananya_weissman, rabbiofberlin, GingerKale, Frum Yid, bubalah, ploniebenplonie, yuchid verabim, and the rest of the Tendler defenders.
I will clarify some of my previous statements. I apologize for posting the Rambam in the original Hebrew, (comment 18) as it seems many of you have a problem with the language. The Rambam says that part of the mitzvah of “fearing the mikdash” is that is only permissible to enter for a dvar mitzva. As outlined in my post political reasons or inciting the Arabs can hardly be considered a dvar mitzva. Assuming that he went to the mikvah, took off his shoes, left his wallet with someone, and did not go into prohibited areas, it is still ossur according to the Rambam because har habayis is not a tourist site.
Reb Moshe z”l did NOT pick Tendler as a son in law as Tendler himself states in the “end the madness lecture available on YUTORAH.ORG.
As far as consulting on Igros Moshe, other gedoilim have consulted with goyishe doctors, engineers, and chemists, when necessary to determine certain facts. So what?
Regarding metzitzah: comment 56- satmer101 posted a link to 6 pages of Moshe Dovid Tendler’s lies in his own words and his voice on the issue of metzitzah bipeh. If you would like to know more on metzitzah and herpes, go to pubmed.gov and review the last 40 years of neonatal herpes research by Nahamias, Whitley, Kimberlin, Arvin, Yeager, Corey, Prober, Stanberry, Zane Brown, Elizabeth Brown, Wald, Ashley, Josey, Roizman, and others, and you will find the 22 authors including Tendler that produced 4 papers associating neonatal herpes with metzitzah
1)Have never written about neonatal herpes, most haven’t even written on herpes.
2)Two of the papers making this association don’t cite a single reference on neonatal herpes.
3) the 5 factors that they cite as “circumstantial evidence” are textbook maternally transmitted herpes.
4) Dr. Lorry Rubin, the author of the first paper appearing in March 2000 PIDJ, cites several references on neonatal herpes and then writes the exact opposite of what they state.
5) despite the fact that herpes and subsequently neonatal herpes vary greatly based on demographics and region, asst NYC health comm. Dr. Julia Schillinger, herself a co-author of three papers on the demographics (seroprevalence) of herpes, is oblivious (as are the so called “expert” authors) that the second and third paper about herpes cases in Israel and Canada use the same 1980 United States statistics cited by Lorry Rubin in the first paper, that have no bearing whatsoever on cases in Israel. The Canadian (Kropp et al, 2006) and Israeli (Samra et al, 2003) statistics clearly implicate the mother.
6) Every standard avenue of testing to determine the source of infection was avoided. DNA testing, used to trace HSV epidemics since 1976 was not used in 4 cases of one mohel accused of infecting more than one baby. Even if the mohel refuses to be tested, match the virus of the babies. If the mohel is the only common link and the virus matches, that’s a pretty strong statement.
7) The articles themselves, knowing that they avoided all standard testing methods base their claim on “circumstantial evidence”, May have, might have, has the potential, etc. There is no proven link only an assumed one. That not withstanding Tendler et al, in the fourth paper in Hebrew in Harefuah (Feb 2005) misquote their previous paper saying “A recent study relates to eight infants who became infected with herpes virus as a result of the procedure.” something the article does not say. it merely suggests a link. Their article in Pediatrics Aug 2004 also says that the Chasam Sofer who died in 1839, being influenced by Ignacz Semmelweis 1847 discovery of disease transmission “after a baby got tuberculosis from an infected mohel” (This is a lie. As per his book cited by the authors, Semmelweis discovered disease transmission in an obstetrics ward. He never mentions circumcision) Was matir instrumental suction eventhough the instrument, the tube, wasn’t invented until 1887 as per their Hebrew article in Harefuah. I have seen the final report on metzitzah and it will be released in the coming weeks. The attack on the 3000 year old minhag of metzitzah is lie from beginning to end. It is an unfounded attack on chareidim by a group of modern orthodox doctors including Tendler that seek to raise the banner of MO as more capable in these matters then the chareidim. The facts will reveal why they no right to that position. In questions of medicine halacha mandates consulting with the best objective Doctors available. That is why four Chareidi askanim went to meet with Drs. Richard Whitley and David Kimberlin, the foremost neonatal HSV researchers in the country, at the university of Alabama in 2005 when the controversy arouse. The Drs. were unconcerned about the procedure as it matches all the textbook maternal risk factors, which all the articles (in their ignorance) fail to address. Being that Tendler has attacked a 3000 year old minhag yisroel based on hot air, and minhag yisroel is Torah, then he lied about it despite the fact that his first comments were recorded, and the Chasam Sofer says one who makes light of a minhag yisroel (“Tzarich bedika achorov”) (shu”t Orech Chayim 51) here we are dealing with a man that attacked a 3000 year old minhag in a goyishe medical publication. One would think that had he had legitimate concerns he would have consulted with gedolei yisroel or published in a Jewish forum. His broadside attack on the chareidishe community is unfounded and unprecedented. I feel no need to apologize and in fact a need to protest that such an oker yisrael is afforded any honor. I do not wish to be included in the catagory of “kol mi she’yesh b’yado limchos vi’aino mocha nitfas bioiso oven. (shabbos 54:, Sukkah 29:, avodah zara 18.) In any Frum kehilla in Europe this Doktor Rabbiner would have long ago been driven out with rocks and sticks. Had the Chofetz Chaim been there he also would have been holding a stick.
matzahlocal01,
You can quote from your satmar propoganda pages all day but it will change nothing. I really do not want to get into a metzitz b’peh discussion here though. Rabbi Tendler held this position long before you read about it in the Yated, and nobody said a word–as there have many reputable poskim in the past who have held the same thing. This whole issue–which seems to be the only thing you know about the man, was never about him anyway. But I am not going to go any further because I would like YWN to allow this post.
History has a way of repeating itself. And you my friend are cut from the same cloth as the goons who used to put up posters and MUCH worse to Rav Moshe zatzal over some of his piskei halacha—all of course, claiming it in the name of some kind of milchemes Hashem.
What it is in reality is pure hatred cloaked in self righteousness.
I do not agree with some of the things Chananya weissman wrote, nor do I remotely agree with some of his causes.
However, he touched on an important point. When, in the history of yiddishkeit, has there never been an allowance of chilukei daos in halacha. Until recently you were able to have a difference of opinion in Psak and not feel the need to wipe the other side off the face of earth.
Was there ever a problem if Rav Shlomo Zalmen held something is Chillul Shabbos Midoaraisa, and Rav Moishe held vadai muttar?
Did the Satmar Rav ever issue a personal attack or criticism of Rav Moshe on their chilukei daos? Of course not.
BUT–there were some thugs out there claiming to be followers of his who harassed, threatened, and spread vicious rumors about the Poseik Hador at that time.
And I’m not saying Rabbi Tendler is Rav Moshe–nobody is. But you are that same goon and thug.
Rabbi Tendler is a poseik and a massive talmid chochom–whether you like it or not. Nobody asked you to follow his psakim, and I can assure you he can care less whether or not you do either.
Why people like you feel the need to personally attack him and try to delligitamize him is somewhat beyond me. Have a disagreement in Halacha, attacking the other opinion personally doesnt add weight to your shitta. All it is, is a frustrated person who doesnt know enought to answer anything in substance. It has no place in yiddishkeit, and it certainly exhibits signs of someone who really is very uncomfortable in his own skin.
I will refer you to my previous posts which you mentioned but did not answer. Rabbi Tendler was a rabbi and a poseik long before you read anout metzitza b’peh. Can you name we one psak/shitta of his aside from it though? And if not, wouldn’t you agree that it seems a bit silly to say such things about a man whom you hardly know a thing about?
matzahlocaol101 (and Joseph) – I didn’t actually come out and defend R’ Tendler, because I don’t know enough on the subject to talk about it (unlike many others on this thread who just start blabbing away).
What I do know, and what I was trying to clarify before, was that just because he did something that is wrong in YOUR OPINION doesn’t give you or anyone else a right to publicly bad-mouth him and call him all sorts of disgusting names. The problem is some of you super-yeshivish people think that your opinions are fact, and that you have a right to rip apart another frum yid who holds differently (in this case, a very learned man, whether you like it or not). All of a sudden you’re not so worried about loshon hora. What ever happened to derech eretz? Is it okay to make these smart-mouth comments such as “I apologize for posting the Rambam in the original Hebrew, (comment 18) as it seems many of you have a problem with the language.”? (Oh, and by the way, you write “it is assur ACCORDING to the Rambam.” Would that imply that maybe there is someone of a different opinion?) YOU are the ones causing hatred in klal yisroel. Tell me, does not everyone who has called R’ Tendler a name must ask for mechila? Just because he’s not a rav by your standards means he’s not a jew? Where do you get the nerve to speak this way about another yid? Can’t you voice your opinion with RESPECT? We’re constantly trying to fix the problems within klal yisroel, why don’t we start with Sinaas Chinam. Hitler ym”s didn’t discriminate between Chasidish, Litvish, MO, Lubavitch, etc., but yet we do. How very sad.
bloomy — What you say is all fine. And Rabbi Tendler doesn’t hold of Metzita b’peh. Fine. But why did Rabbi Tendler attempt to interfere with OTHERS continuing to use Metzita b’peh? Why did he try to stop OTHERS from continuing THEIR minhugim? (With his statements and actions with government officials and calling for an end of Metzita b’peh by OTHERS.)
This is the same taaine you are making.
Hmmm, and then we want to know why Moshiach doesn’t come. Why even bother fasting on Tisha B’av? Seems no-one here really cares either way. How sad “frumkeit” has become.
matzahlocal01,
Again you are wrong! The Rambam states explicitly that there is a mitzvah to send a Yisrael who is Tamei into the Kodesh Kadashim in a open manner (not in a box) to remove a piece of Tuma! He says this clearly in Hilchot Beit Habichira, Perek 7, Halacha 23. If we enter to remove a piece of tuma then for sure we enter to remove the occupation of the goyim!
There is no Mitzvah for the Jewish People to tremble before the goyim! The opposite to fear the goyim and allow them to walk all over us is a great avara! It causes a massive chilul Hashem! We see this clearly from Parshat Matot, Hashem gives a command to Moshe to tell Am Yisrael,” Nimkom Nikmat Bnei Yisrael M’et Hamidyanim”, but Moshe turns to Am Yisrael and says, “Latet Nikmat Hashem Bamidyan”.
Why did Moshe change the command? To teach us that the honor of Hashem and the honor of the Am is one! When we are down he avenges us! When the Goyim try to strike at Him then we avenge his honor!
Now that the Goyim desecrate the Har Hashem everyday, we have an obligation to act!
Yosef Rabin
Therefore it is a mitzvah upon every Jews to go up to Har Habayit bizmanenu! “Lhotzi misham et Hatuma”
matzahlocaol101 I couldnt find on r tendlers speech to end the madness about r moshe not picking. What part of the speech is it.
bloomy: How could R’ M Tendler report a Mohel to the authorities? Isn’t that maasering? Even if true. Why did R’ M. Tendler try to stop Jews from practicing the custom during Bris Mila? No one is forcing him to do it. But why stop others from doing their ancient Jewish customs?
Chananya, What kind of hypocrite! You make it your modus operedi to attack Rabbis right and left, and when it comes to your favorite Rabbi you get all bent out of shape when someone does what you do on a wholesale basis to MANY Rabbis in all of your pretentious writings.
Fein Uf, where did Hashem call you to tell you who his favorite is?
bloomy, What is this “Satmar propoganda” you refer to? I see nothing of it in the commenter you respond to. He makes points irrelevant to Satmar or anyone. Obviously you have your own leftist leanings that cloud your mind.
rtBerliner, as always you are replacing the facts with your biases. I am of Jewish Hungarian survivor heritage. Kastner ym’s sold Hungarian Jewry to Adolf Eichmann for his train. His train was about 95% constituted of his family and zionist cronies. The Satmar Rebbe’s being on it (from the other 5% of passengers) was NOT of Kastner’s doing. Kastner received a report from 2 death camp escapees detailing what the Nazis were doing to the Yidden (i.e. murdering them in cold blood.) Hungarian Jewry was NOT aware of this. (Which is why the went like sheep to the slaughter, rather than fight/escape.) Kastner kept this report hidden in order not to derail his sweetheart deal for his family and friends train from Adolf Eichmann.
Kastners treason against his fellow Jew was so obvious, his fellow zionist court in the State of Israel CONVICTED him of collaboration with Eichmann. Afterwards a holocaust survivor killed Kastner because of his selling Hungarian Jewish lives to Adolf Eichmann. Then another zionist court, trying to contain the damage that came out in the first zionist court trial, post-humously vacated PART of the original judgement against Kastner.
The trucks for Jewish lives deal was hijacked by zionists in PAlestine rt
The name of the report I refer to above (in #127) is the Vrba-Wetzler report. Hungarian Jewry were led to believe they were being “resettled” rather than being shipped to death camps. Rudolf Vrba and Alfréd Wetzler, two Slovakian Jews who had escaped from Auschwitz issued in the form of a report details of what the Nazis ym’s were doing to the Jews. It was typed up by Dr. Oscar Krasniansky, who personally delivered a copy of it to Kastner, who refused to make it public for the reasons I outlined above.
At the conclusion of the war, SS Officer Kurt Becher (one of Kastners Nazi friends he paid off) was put on trial at Nuremberg as a war criminal. Kastner testified in this Nazis defense, stating that “[Becher is] cut from a different wood than the professional mass murderers of the political SS”. This defense of an SS officer further angered the Hungarian Jewish community, even more so than the original collaboration had with Eichmann. In all, Kastner testified on behalf of Becher and other SS/Nazi officials involved in his ransom efforts five separate times between 1946 and 1948.
Feif Un, Who is your Rosh Yeshiva?
BTW, that description would fit most yidden. And that would include critics of Rabbi Tendler’s actions (i.e. Metitza).
Joseph #119,
You are right, that is the same tainne–but your facts are just wrong. What EVIDENCE can you quote me that would show that Rabbi Tendler interfered with others performing metzitza b’peh? (and the Yated is not a source, just because they claim something as fact–without backing it up–does not make it true).
Zalman #125,
1st of all, same response as to Joseph. Secondly, can you tell me of any proof that you have that rabbi tendler reported the mohel? So how exactly did he stop anybody anyway?
And Doc #126, I was referring to matzalocal101’s quoting from a website that was satmar propaganda.
So no, i dont think anything about what I said is “obviously” having leftist leanings that cloud my mind as you say. When does being against satmar propoganda make you a leftist anyway?
Oh, and one more thing:
None of you chachumim have taken me up on my challenge: can any of you name one thing about rabbi tendler aside from metzitz b’peh? and if not, isn’t it a bit silly to harbor such strong feelings about someone who you hardly know a thing about??
bloomy –
Its been widely discussed, and I haven’t seen any denials by Rabbi Tendler, that Rabbi Tendler publicly stated (and I see there is a link in comment #56 above with an audio of Rabbi Tendler stating as such) that he contacted the government and that the government would hence become involved in the issue.
If you notice above, nowhere have I attacked Rabbi Tendler. I do though strongly question his action in the Metzitza B’peh issue. Even if this is the only issue, this is a BIG issue with what he did a few years ago.
bloomy, I just reread matzlocoho101’s comment and still fail to see anything particularly Satmar about his arguments. They are run of the mill positions held by various people. Which point is “Satmar” as opposed to a viewpoint that anyone else might have? Also, what is wrong with a Satmar position, and what is the meaning of “Satmar propoganda”? Is there a “YU propoganda”? A Torah V’daas propoganda”? Or do you harbor such suspicions exclusively of Satmar?
Here is what Adolf Eichmann told Life magazine in 1960:
“As a matter of fact, there was a very strong similarity between our attitudes in the SS and the viewpoint of these immensely idealistic Zionist leaders who were fighting what might by their last battle. As I told Kastner: ‘We, too, are idealists and we, too, had to sacrifice our own blood before we came to power.’ I believe that Kastner would have sacrificed a thousand or a hundred thousand of his blood to achieve his political goal. He was not interested in old Jews or those who had become assimilated into Hungarian society. But he was incredibly persistent in trying to save biologically valuable Jewish blood—that is, human material that was capable of reproduction and hard work. ‘You can have the others,’ he would say, ‘but let me have this group here.’ And because Kastner rendered us a great service by helping keep the deportation camps peaceful, I would let his groups escape. After all, I was not concerned with small groups of a thousand or so Jews.”
—A. Eichmann, “Eichmann Tells His Own Damning Story”, Life Magazine, Volume 49, Number 22, (28 November 1960), pp. 19-25, 101-112; and “Eichmann’s Own Story: Part II”, Life Magazine, (5 December 1960), pp. 146-161; at 146.
Here is some more about Kastner from the devils own mouth (his friend A. Eichmann ym’s):
I resolved to show how well a job could be done when the commander stands 100% behind it. By shipping the Jews off in a lightning operation, I wanted to set an example for future campaigns elsewhere . . .
In obedience to Himmler’s directive I now concentrated on negotiations with the Jewish political officials in Budapest . . . Among them Dr. Rudolph Kastner, authorized representative of the Zionist Movement. This Dr. Kastner was a young man about my age, an ice-cold lawyer and a fanatical Zionist. He agreed to help keep the Jews from resisting deportation – and even keep order in the collection camps – if I could close my eyes and let a few hundred or a few thousand young Jews emigrate illegally to Palestine. It was a good bargain. For keeping order in the camps, the price . . . was not too high for me . . . We trusted each other perfectly. When he was with me, Kastner smoked cigarettes as though he was in a coffeehouse. While we talked he would smoke one aromatic cigarette after another, taking them from a silver case and lighting them with a silver lighter. With his great polish and reserve he would have made an ideal Gestapo officer himself. Dr. Kastner’s main concern was to make it possible for a select group of Hungarian Jews to emigrate to Israel . . .
As a matter of fact, there was a very strong similarity between our attitudes in the S.S. and the viewpoint of these immensely idealistic Zionist leaders . . . I believe that Kastner would have sacrificed a thousand or a hundred thousand of his blood to achieve his political goal . . . ‘You can have the others’, he would say, ‘but let me have this group here’. And because Kastner rendered us a great service by helping keep the deportation camps peaceful, I would let his groups escape. After all, I was not concerned with small groups of a thousand or so Jews . . . That was the ‘gentleman’s agreement’ I had with Kastner
—
Only Heinrich Himmler could turn off the liquidation machine. It was in 1944, the year of the assassination attempt on Hitler, when Reichsführer Himmler took over as commander of the Reserve Army, that he authorized me to propose an exchange: one million Jews for 10,000 winterized trucks with trailers. The World Jewish Organization could decide for itself what Jews it wanted to choose. We asked only that they get us 10,000 trucks. Thanks to Himmler’s directive, I could assure them, on my word of honor, that these trucks would be used only on the Eastern front. As I said at the time, “When the 10,000 winterized trucks with trailers are here, then the liquidation machine in Auschwitz will be stopped.
In obedience to Himmler’s directive I now concentrated on negotiations with the Jewish political officials in Budapest. One man stood out among them, Dr. Rudolf Kastner, authorized representative of the Zionist movement. This Dr. Kastner was a young man about my age, an ice-cold lawyer and a fanatical Zionist. He agreed to help keep the Jews from resisting deportation and even keep order in the collection camps if I would close my eyes and let a few hundred or a few thousand young Jews emigrate illegally to Palestine. It was a good bargain. For keeping order in the camps, the price of 15,000 to 20,000 Jews – in the end there may have been more – was not too high for me.
Except perhaps for the first few sessions, Kastner never came to me fearful of the Gestapo strong man. We negotiated entirely as equals. People forget that. We were political opponents trying to arrive at a settlement, and we trusted each other perfectly. When he was with me, Kastner smoked cigarettes as though he were in a coffeehouse. While we talked he would smoke one aromatic cigarette after another, taking them from a silver case and lighting them with a little silver lighter. With his great polish and reserve he would have made an ideal Gestapo officer himself.
Dr. Kastner’s main concern was to make it possible for a select group of Hungarian Jews to emigrate to Israel. But the Arrow Cross, the Hungarian fascist party, had grown strong and stubborn. Its inspectors permitted no exceptions to the mass deportations. So the Jewish officials turned to the German occupation authorities. They realized that we were specialists who had learned about Jewish affairs through years of practice.
As a matter of fact, there was a very strong similarity between our attitudes in the SS and the viewpoint of these immensely idealistic Zionist leaders who were fighting what might be their last battle. As I told Kastner: “We, too, are idealists and we, too, had to sacrifice our own blood before we came to power.”
I believe that Kastner would have sacrificed a thousand or a hundred- thousand of his blood to achieve his political goal. He was not interested in old Jews or those who had become assimilated into Hungarian society. But he was incredibly persistent in trying to save biologically valuable Jewish blood, that is, human material that was capable of reproduction and hard work. “You can have the others,” he would say, “but let me have this group here.” And because Kastner rendered us a great service by helping keep the deportation camps peaceful, I would let his groups escape. After all, I was not concerned with small groups of a thousand or so Jews.
At the same time Kastner was bargaining with another SS of official a Colonel Kurt Becker. Becher was bartering Jews for foreign exchange and goods on direct orders from Himmler. A crafty operator, Becher had come to Hungary originally to salvage a stud farm which the SS wanted. He soon wormed his way into dealings with the Jews. In a way, Reichsführer Himmler was Becher’s captive. Becher showed me once a gold necklace he was taking to our chief. There were other agencies, German and Hungarian, which tapped Kastner for foreign exchange in return for Jews, but I held aloof from money affairs and left the material transactions to Becher.
Men under Becher’s command guarded a special group of 700 Jews whom Kastner had requested from a list. They were mostly young people, although the group also included Kastner’s entire family. I did not care if Kastner took his relatives along. he could take them wherever he wanted to.
Life, Vol. 49, No. 23, December 5, 1960, p. 146
Doc #133–Do me a favor–reread it agin. He quotes comment #56’s quoting information from a SATMAR WEBSITE. Secondly if you put my “satmar propganda” back i nto the context of my whole comment (way of history repeating itself) you may see what I was getting at.
Joseph #132,
I do not mean to nitpick here and I also understand where you are coming from. You, like most people, believed all the things that were said about rabbi tendler’s involvement here. However, just because rabbi tendler didnt publicly deny it–something you claim but I do not believe is factually correct–that is not an admission. The recording you quote has him saying “I HAVE to report him”. To put that into context with his whole discussion for you–rabbi tendler had just said that he was consulted about metzitza b’peh by the nyc health dept. And due to the fact that he knew as a fact that the mohel had an order against him from performing metzitza b’peh BEFORE this bris, and that by doing it he had violated that order, r’ tendler had an obligation–under law–to say something.
That does not actually mean that he DID report. In fact, he did not.
Anybody who really knows anything about rabbi tendler–whether or not they agree with him on thing–but actually know his shittos, know his strong shittos on mesira.
bloomy —
It seems to me that it is you who is nitpicking. You, in #137, concede that Rabbi Tendler has publicly stated that he has to report the mohel to the government authorities — an act that would constitute mesira, and thus prohibited by halacha despite secular law. So the obvious question becomes, WHY did Rabbi Tendler feel it necessary to publicly pronounce his legal obligation to his students (unless he intended to fulfill that legal obligation despite it being against halacha — which you say did not occur)?
In any event, some of the public pronouncements and government interaction by Rabbi Tendler certainly give the strong impression he would like to interfere with other practicing this custom. If it was only intended for his audience — and he is perfectly happy to allow other continue practicing Metzitza unimpeded — why all the vitriol against the practice of Metzitza?
(i.e. the interfering with others [from above site]:
Rabbi Tendler:
“I now have a difficult situation, a Mohel in our
town, in Monsey, has now been identified as a source of infection with 2 children… I have to call him in and tell him either he stops making Mezizah B’peh or we’ll have to announce that he cannot be used as a Mohel.”
Milah 1 Shiur January 1, 2004 by Rabbi Tendler in Yeshiva University)
#139:
I am merely following the wise advise of my fellow commenter Itzik_s, who on the other thread requested that I re-post this information anywhere I (to quote Itzik_s) “see people trying to rehabilitate Kasztner OLBM. Lately, some Shoah revisionist has come out with a book vindicating him, and the Jewish left, including some who claim to be shomer Shabbos, are swallowing it hook, line and sinker. This shows who Kasztner OLBM really was, in the words of the Soton himself.”
If you notice above, there is a persistent fellow who is trying to rehab this Kastner killer. Hence my post as a vital reminder.
So my dear sammygol, I am simply trying to be responsive to the requests of my friends.
P.S. You keep alternating whether you “respect” me or not. Please make a consistent choice. Either way. Its not that I need your respect. But it gets a bit annoying when is see-saws back and forth between respecting me (as you sometimes indicated) and not (as you other times indicated.) If its related to whether you like what I am saying or not, perhaps that is not a wise barometer?
Joseph–
You seem to be trying to be intellectually honest so I’m going to try to be more clear.
First off, I did not acuse you of nitpicking. Putting that aside, I am having trouble understanding your conclusions that you make in some of your sentences. Firstly, to “publicly” say something to your shiur I believe is a contradiction. I never thought of shiur as a public setting. On the contrary, its a private setting where a rebbe should be able to speak candidly to his talmiddim. Which sort of highlights what I have said earlier. Rabbi Tendler was speaking to his TALMIDIM. He did not make a public anouncement. Honestly Joseph, how many of us search through YU’s taped shiurim? If it weren’t for the Yated writing about this can you honestly say that this would have accelerated into what it did?
That being said, I am having trouble understanding how speaking candidly and privately to some talmidim causes you to conclude that that must mean he intended to actually report the mohel. True, you might have a point if he announced this to a newspaper or something, but he did not. He said this in a private setting that as far as he was concerned, was going to remain private. And it would have been had it not been for others.
As far as your other point is concerned (ie. your quoting from the YU shiur in regards to rabbi tendler calling in the mohel) I honestly do not see how that proves what you claim it proves. If anything, it does not show anything at all about Rabbi Tendler wanting the public AT LARGE to stop metzitza b’peh, rather, all it says is that since the mohel has been identified to have infected two children, HE (ie. that specific mohel)should stop doing metzitza b’peh. That is very specific, not an attempt to stop the public. How does saying one specific mohel, because he is under an administrative order by the nyc health dept to stop from doing metzitz b’peh until he submits to testing, should stop doing metzitza b’peh out of fear of infecting babies, mean that ALL mohelim should be called in and told to stop?
In conclusion, all I can read from Rabbi Tendler’s statements are the following: 1) His personal shitta is that metzitza b’peh should not be done as he (a trained scientist with a doctorate in microbiology, besides being the massive talmid chachum that he is) believes it constitutes a health risk to the baby. And 2) that if a mohel is actually under and order to cease from doing metzitza b’peh pending an investigation and submitting himself to testing, then he should not be going around doing metzitz b’peh. Doesn’t that sound reasonable to you?
So this whole maaseh was less about metzitza b’peh, than it was about this specific mohel doing it. Correct?
bloomy —
I should add to Rabbi Tendler’s quote in #138, that in fact the Mohel was NOT identified as a source of infection with 2 children, as Rabbi Tendler said.
Joseph,
To once again put it into context, my understanding was that he was referring to being identified by the health dept as the mohel for the babies that had been infected–In other words, the common link between all the cases, which is why there was an order against him to stop from doing metzitza b’peh until he submits for testing.
To be perfectly fair, that may have been an unclear way of speaking–although if I were a betting man I’d say that if we were actually sitting at this shiur (which you and I were not) what I’m saying would’ve been clear. Again, this was not a public statement. It was a candid talk between a rebbe and talmidim. It was not intended for the consumtion of you or I or even editors of newspapers.
Joseph–
Just to add to me response to your #142 post: The reason the mohel was not actually positively identified was because he never actually did submit to testing so he was never confirmed to be or cleared as the source of the infection.
bloomy (143/144) —
Its unfortunate that it wasn’t clear, because the simple meaning of what he said was an indictment by him of the mohel for something the mohel wasn’t guilty of (or as you said, he was never tested demonstrating any guilt). That is the black and white reading of his words. Perhaps you are correct and it was not his intent. But saying that, in that manner (even with admitting it was said in a Yeshiva to talmidim — he must be aware YU publicizes his shiurim on their website), is sure to raise alarms in the Jewish community about why Rabbi Tendler is saying something that just isn’t so. And that will cause anger (as it did) towards Rabbi Tendler’s actions.
And add to that Rabbi Tendlers other unclear statement about him (“having to”) contacting government officials regarding the mohels actions, and Rabbi Tendler further saying that the government will involve itself in this religious activity, and you have a combustible firestorm.
bloomy —
One other point worthwhile mentioning, is Rabbi Tendler’s resorting to publishing academic studies of Metzitza in general (i.e. non-Jewish) medical journals is sure to cause interference with the minhug by non-Jews (government, academia, and every anti-semite out there looking to interfere with Jewish practices — as they try to do with shechita already) and use Rabbi Tendler’s articles as “proof” that they need to stop Jews from practicing this “barbaric” practice. It gives them a stepladder to initiate their broadsides against Klal Yisroel.
to joseph..why dont you qoute to these guys from “min hamaytzar” by hagoen hatzaddik michoel ber weismandel ? . buy the way kastner did not include the satmar rebbe out of the goodness of his heart..had to do something with his mother commanded him…
Joseph–
This goes back to something I touched on earlier. The publication you are referring to cam out way before this whole maaseh with this mohel. Nobody in the velt either knew about it or said anything. So your saying that it caused a firestorm is somewhat inaccurate. As I said, this only caused a stir because the yated published these things, taking what was an issue between one mohel and the health dept, and making it into a worldwide metzitza b’peh issue.
And in terms of his comments being an indictment–the only reason anybody ever heard these quotes is because the yated published them, trying to fan the flames against rabbi tendler. Whether or not r’ tendler knew it was going to show up on YU’s site (i do not know that he did or how often his shiurim are posted where he may have predicted that or even if he knew that he was being recorded–i simply do not know, and I would guess neither do you) is not any indictment of any substance because, who would have heard it anyway?
As far as referring to gov. intervention, that was referring to the mohel’s refusal to comply with the order against him and the health dept.’s investigation. If anything, any gov. intervention resulting from this would have been a direct cause of the mohel’s refusal to cooporate with the health dept–not anything on rabbi tendler’s part.
We must be honest here and realize that had the yated and others not make this into such a public issue (something that the moetzes strongly criticized in a statement printed in the Jewish Observer at around that time) most people would have never even known that it existed. Events involving mohelim had happened in the past without anybody knowing. And the reason none of us would have ever heard about it is because it would have never deteriorated into such a big issue, as it was only a specific problem between ONE mohel and the nyc dept. of health. The frum press decided to blow this into a global issue, a “milchemes Hashem”,by pitting the frum velt against rabbi tendler by claiming he did things that he NEVER did all the while never giving any real proof to back up what they claimed (ie. that he reprted the mohel)–WHEN REALLY, this had nothing to do with rabbi tendler OR metzitza b’peh as a whole–it was about this mohel–something that you and I probably would have never found out about had it not been for the yated and other publication’s self-serving agenda.
Underscoring the point is that nobody even knew about this academic publication–or at least was never a topic of converstaion–befor this specific maaseh. If rabbi tendler in fact was advocating a ban on metzitza b’peh, how come he didnt do anything in that regard between the time that article was published and when we all read about it a few years later?
#149 – We heard that you are a “man of your word” and trust that you will keep to your promise in this comment.
bloomy —
I hear your position, although I can’t say I agree with it. 🙂
Truth be told, I am sure I am not privy with all the nitty gritty details involved in this back and forth issue (as I am sure neither are you or the vast majority of the populace). From my perspective, it does seem from what did transpire that the (internal Jewish) debate and (external) exposure could’ve been handled with better care.
to #149 rabbi of berlin…dont it take personaly ..plenty of my posts didnt go on either. thats why we stopped. takes to much time then dont see it ,cant blame moderator. he cant post everyones. also this is not like goyishe site jihad watch, LGF etc. that he can just post them without edit (dirty words,3+1 letter words,real vulgar language, way out of torah haskafe post etc…)so takes time for moderator. we’re sure there are plenty who use them (way out and anti torah haskafa ,unbecoming language) so cant let through …so for me if it just 2-3 lines will maybe post but long pshetel bl’n will not..anyway so its not because of you personaly
Joseph,
I would agree with that last sentence. What I would add though is that a very fine talmid chacham’s name was dragged through the mud for no other reason than that there were people who decided to smear rabbi tendler and incite people against him by publicizing lies and inaccuracies JUST to shift attention from and help out this mohel by crafting this into something much bigger and different from what it actually was.
This, in my opinion and I hope you would concede, is a terrible abuse and misuse of the press. Newspapers have a responsibility to be accurate and impartial. When a newspaper is used to heat up and incite the public against someone based on lies and mistruths, there is something very wrong.
What we could learn from this is two things:
1) The klal should not give so much credence to the printed word just because it has been printed.
2) Perhaps it would be a good idea that newspapers that cater to the frum velt suchas the Yated should be subject to the review that they used to be. In the old days as far as I remember R’ Elya Svei had to give approval to what was printed. Now its a free for all. If we went back to how things were before, ie. there was some form of approval from godolim as to what is printed and conveyed as fact to the klal, I think we would be a lot better off and this would stop a lot of lashon hara and motzei shem ra from being disseminated to so many people.
joseph – the “rabbi”ofberlin will still be reading and still posting, just under a different name.
he is upset because he creates stories to make the secular zionists look like the great saviors of Yidden and to make the Gedolim of Europe look like (Chas V’Shalom) know nothings and his tirades do not get posted. he is still reading and seething.
so “rabbi”ofberlin the trick to getting posted here, is to keep your comments truthful and respectful.
anyone with any understanding of the secular zionist mentality (yes the mentality that came up with “we will know that we are like all other nations when one Jew is in jail for killing another Jew” – how is that for a stretch objective!) knows clearly that they blocked the religious communties from coming into E’Y in order to keep their politcal footings and power(money).
there is documented evidence of various Gedolim (Rebbis and Rosh Yeshivas) who went or tried to go themsleves or sent or tried to send their Chassidim / Talmidim to E’Y. many road blocks were set by the secularists. many lives (generations) were lost because of these road-blocks.
to #149 you forgot to use “bl’n”
Gevalt! mdlevine (#155) is correct! Take a look at this YW thread:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/21167/Muslims+Stand+Up+To+Neturei+Karta.html#comments
The “rabbiner”‘s promise in #149 lasted all of 24 hours and 20 minutes to be broken!
Is that a record or what?
to #157,# 155… excuse dont mean to be gaivehdik, but me thinks he changed his mind because…see post #153…problem only he didnt say “b’ln”..but if yiddishe tochter is no problem to ride in patrol car with male all day week in week out with serious issues involved (called it “nonsense” in that article, see link below) ,ladies can wear pants mit de alle “nit hetairim ” hetairim,so not to say “bli nader” is take shoin “nonsense” see his postings in following link #47 #60 #86 http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/20663/Ramapo+Gets+First+Jewish+Orthodox+Female+Cop.html#comments..