13 Responses

1. this is about trying to tear down the beautiful life the chareidim enjoy a meaningful life this is what the chilonim hate and that is why vayokotzoo mipnei bnei yisroel. this is not sharing the burden this is to playcate the eyesore the chilonim see every time they see a beautiful torahdik family passing by they them they hate th growth of the torah community this has nothing to do with sharing the urder ha’raya the arabs. this is about breaking the chareidim and it will not work like pharoah said pen yirbah and hakb”h said kein yirbah

2. couldn’t have said it better than #1. Kein yirbah people who think like you and not like the self hating Jews who sometimes post here.

3. Well see how worthy of praise they are when they get to heaven

4. I think it is time to stop being paranoid. There are those that want to secularize us. However the majority just want us to have a proper economy so when we have the majority of the country we will be able to run it efficiently.

5. To 1. lbj

   You are being too simplistic.
   I know it’s hard, but try to imagine yourself as chalila a Tinok Shenishba growing up without Torah.
   What would you think every time you saw a “beautiful Torahdik family passing by”?
   Would you say “Wow, I wish I were like them…. wearing all those extra clothes. Not having a TV. Never studying Biology or Algebra, ensconced in Shuls and Batei Medrash and never serving our country.”
   Their point of view – even if it is full of hatred to us – must be understood. They are the majority of this country. Most of them hardly even heard of Moshe Rabbenu. Their ignorance is appalling. No wonder they are repelled by us.
   They don’t see a “beautiful Torahdik family”. They see what they consider primitive Neanderthals who utterly reject their way of life and the entire Western culture of the 21st century that they see themselves as part of.

6. On one hand, Secular Israel is very adroit at creating amazing institutions — the military, intelligence services, agricultural enterprises, transportation grid, technology and science sectors, banking and financial industries, etc. But what they are NOT competent at creating is: sustainable ideology. Historically, they wanted to create a safe haven for Jews where we could be free to live as Jews, however we saw fit. To this end they formulated various ideological streams of Zionism (right wing, left wing, religious, and post-). Zionism as a calling no longer captures the imagination of a Jewish nationalist spirit. The kibbutzim are on the decline, the WZO, Jewish Agency, and others, while generally helpful, are no longer a significant center of gravity within the Jewish People. The “Peace” movement and far left have had a deleterious effect on a “Land of Israel”-centric ideology. As has the far right in emphasizing the primacy of the Land over all else.
   One of the last halcyons of Secular Israel is the concept of “shared military burden.” Whether the “Shared Burden” crowd means ill for Haredi Israel is debatable. I’m sure many do, but there are probably as many, if not more, that just want to see everyone getting the basic training, learning a military skill, and getting with the program of contributing to the temporal existence of the State.
   What they don’t understand, and what we have been ineffective in propounding, is the idea that “Shared Burden” applies equally, if not more so, to the burden of ameilus b’Torah. Sometimes the “Shared Burden” crowd tries to lecture us on the mitzvah aspect of protecting the land and people. Which is kind of true. But we seem to be mute in responding that military service is one mitzvah of many, limited to (a) Jewish males between the ages of 20 – 60; (b) according to the needs of the defense establishment as articulated by the Manpower Commander; and (c) for those Jews who are holy, yirei shomayim. Military service is not kneged kol haTorah kulo. Rather, Talmud Torah keneged kulam. It is not WE who are shirking our duties to share the burden incumbent upon all the Jewish People. Rather it is THEY who are mevatel Torah umitzvos, who disgrace the rabbis and bnei Torah.
   We need to articulate this point, and the ideology of being ovdei HaShem b’simcha, of being moser nefesh for the Torah. Our ideals of being an Am Kadosh, of Toraso Umnaso, of being baalei nefesh in our avodas HaShem — these ideals are timeless, unshakeable, and ultimately our salvation.
   The chilonim can create a beautiful state, a defense establishment that we can be proud of, technology and science sectors that lead the industrial world. All of this is worthy of our admiration and pride. But that is not the root of our Jewish identity and ideology. We have that, and we need to be vociferous in articulating it.

7. Holymoe,

   Reb elyashiv says in a tshuva, that Torah and the chareidi position( which is based on Torah) spread so much in Israel, that there is no tin ok shenishba in Israel. If they wanted to understand a comunity that makes up a significant percent of israeli society, they could do so easily. Yet they choose not to.hence anybody downplaying the importance of Torah or loomed I Torah on anyone living their lives based on Torah, is guilty.andcwill have to give a din v’cheshbon if they did anything to harm the Torah, or its values.

8. Details please?

9. They could still find a compromise without changing the law. One option would be to decide to allow conscientious objection (which probably could be done without a statute) – which would cover anyone who can truthfully state a preference to having Eretz Yisrael under Islamic rule rather than a zionist state that persecutes Torah Jews. Another would be for the IDF, as part of the conscription process, to decide that individuals are psychologically unfit for duty (a profile that hurts in finding employment at the sorts of companies that generally avoid hiring hareidim anyways).

   Or they can plan on mass arrests, soldiers who will be mutiny prone, and having the zionist movement thorougly undermined both domestically and internationally.

10. to Simbin

    Rav Elyashiv is referring to a Halachic Tinok SheNishba (and most poskim disagree with him even on that) I refer to a conceptual Tinok SheNishba. Why should the average secular be interested in trying to understand a minority that seems so out of step with not only his Israeli secular world but with the whole “civilized enlightened western culture” that billions around the world are dancing to the tune of.

    You, simbin, seem pretty convinced that the seculars will give “Din VeCheshbon”. I am not. They will just tell the BesDin shel Maalo “Is it fair that my neshomo was sent into a Guf that was born to Yidden that didn’t know about Torah? So I wasn’t curious enough to study Chareidim.”
    ”
    “And what about sinbin? What did he and other Torah Jews do to reach out to us? To invite us for a Shabbos. To even smile at us and tell us ‘Good Morning’. To join Partners for Torah. To generously support Arachim or Lev Lachim that introduce us to Yiddishkeit but are grossly underfunded.”

    I wonder who should be more concerned about “Din VeCheshbon”.

11. Oh please, I’ve seen the “beautiful” secular Israeli schools. Drugs is not the worst thing there. And the army too, mixed crowd…as per the desire to make the chareidim run the country – it’s the biggest dread of a chiloni that the country will be overtaken by chareidim, just think about it. And if the goverment simply wants to integrate chareidim – just cut the $ and there will be no choice. What does the army have to do with that. Have you had a conversation with a pro-Israeli chiloni that is angry at chareidim? I had. It’s clear if you want to open your eyes. Most people live the “myth” that the Israeli media is feeding them, even though not every chiloni is as into it.

12. To #1 and Rabbi Porush
    Am I missing something? Why on earth would you want Israeli Arabs serving in the Israeli army?? Do they want ticking time bombs walking around Jews?

13. #12 – Most Israeli Arabs have long since made a conscious choice to live as second class citizens in a zionist state, rather than move to an Arabic Islamic state where they are liable to be persecuted for being either non-Muslim or being considered heretics for being too western and too secular by Islamic standards. In many ways, if Israel were to become an Islamic state, they have more to lose than hareidim who would be quite content to be an autonomous minority group.