The avreich in question ate a meat meal in a restaurant, prompting him to ask his Rav if he may eat his wife’s dairy meal without waiting, citing Shalom Bayis as a justifiable reason. However, HaGaon HaRav Yitzchak Zilberstein found a different response for shalom bayis.
Rav Zilberstein, Mora D’asra of the Ramat Elchanan neighborhood of Bnei Brak, told over the incident to participants at his shiur in Beit Knesset Divrei Shiur.
The rav quoted the avreich explaining his wife does everything very slowly, “five times slower than other women”, and when he gets back from Kollel, he has to wait a long time for lunch. At times, the hunger is quite intense, and on this particular day, he was so hungry, that he went to a restaurant, simply unable to wait to eat.
The rav quoted the avreich added, “On that day davka, my wife says to me, “dear husband, I made a surprise for you’ and on the table was a plate of cheese blintzes, which I love.” The rav said the avreich added he was not supposed to eat in a restaurant – and not eating the blintzes would lead to his wife being upset for a month, asking for a heter for shalom bayis, to eat the dairy blintzes.
The rav responded, “I did not permit him. Why? For shalom bayis I said he could tell her that he ate at a Pidyon HaBen, meat, even though there was no Pidyon HaBen. However, to permit dairy after meat, out of the question. He was given permission to lie for ‘darchei shalom’ but not to transgress other prohibitions”.
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46 Responses
The answer seems so obvious after hearing it, but in the heat of the moment it is easy to not think of it.
Why is lying to your wife less severe than eating milk after meat?
I think he was simply afraid to tell her that he ate in a restaurant over his wifes food. Nothing more nothing less
Yankelle you have a very good question, but this is the fact. The gemara states so very clearly that Hashem kivayachol lied to Avrohom Avinu by the rebuke for her laughter, because of shalom bayis, concluding that therefore we see it is sometimes permitted to lie for shalom bayis. Why that is so? That’s a good question, but not any better then the question of why is it that fish with fins and scales are permitted by Hashem while fish without fins and scales are not permitted…………..
Yankel:
Because there is a clear heter in the Gemara that one (a Talmud Chacham) is permitted to lie m’Pnei darchei shalom’ .
UJM:
it is not that simple; assuming if he ate chicken and it is over an hour or two, many poskim (Marshal etc) permit it, so perhaps there is a Heter shas hadchak..
@Yankelle: the question was not if this is ideal and if you should admire his actions… If he had a truly honest an open relationship, he wouldn’t have to hide the fact that he ate… He was already deceptive when he ate out, the question now was, how to go about it. Lying is not much worse than the initial deception, and Chaza”l says it is permitted sometimes Mipnei Darchei Shalom – eating dairy after meat is a real Issur D’rabonon that is not permitted Mipnei Darchei Shalom.
@yankelle lying to your wife is not a specific issue (although in general a very stupid thing to do ) the issue is lying which is specially permitted in cases of darchei shalom. We don’t find this heter for other issurim
And as to why there is a heter for lying – that is probaly because truth is subjective when it comes to lying
Yankelle: Specifically what aveira do you think there is about lying and where do you find this aveira recorded anywhere in Halacha?
@Yankelle Rashi says that Hashem lied to Avraham regarding what Sarah said about him in order to preserve Sholom bayis.
For more sources:
See Yevamos 65b where the statement of the other shvatim to Yosef is under discussion.
See also Magen Avraham in siman 156 in the name of seffer chassidim #426. And look in Rabbi Margolios’ footnotes there for more maareh mikomos.
While the heter to (sometimes) lie for sholom bayis is well known, curious as to why it was better to lie which could be de’oraisa (midvar sheker tirchak) instead of the d’rabbanan of milk after meat.
Yankelle, Look in Bava Metzia 87a. Lying is permitted for Shalom bayis.
Here’s another bright idea for the individual…
1. Eat dairy and parve food items through the week. There are many stories of Gedolim sustaining eating minimally during the week (outside of Shabbos and Yomtov). 2. Offer to assist in the kitchen (will do wonders for Shalom Bayis), thereby attaining the meal quicker.
Follow the Remo and his Pesak to be able to consume meat 1 hour after meat, but Chas veSholom to transgress Torah prohibition of lying, and when there is readily available Pesak from the Remo.
“His wife being upset for a month”
There are clearly bigger issues at stake over here. Something is not %100. They should seek guidance. I wish them well.
Yankelle:
From “Halacipedia” laws of Lying
For peace
One is allowed to lie for the sake of peace.[49] A proof to this is the fact that Hashem told Avraham a different story than actually took place between Hashem and Sarah.[50] Based on this one is allowed to lie to bring peace between husband and wife. [51]
There is a discussion in the seforim if one is allowed to say a real lie for the sake of peace, or only to say something which can be interpreted as the truth as well.[52]
There are poskim that are of the opinion that lying is only permitted for the sake of peace on something which already happened, but for an occurrence which did not yet happen one is not permitted to lie even if it is for peace.[53] However, the custom is to be lenient.[54]
One should not be accustomed to lie for peace.[55]
One is permitted to say the food is good even if it is not to prevent the host from cooking a different food if you told the truth about the food.[56]
If children are fighting, and lying will bring peace between them it is permitted to do so.[57]
It is important to point out that when it is permitted to lie for peace one should not take it lightly and think that all cases are permitted one should really think if peace will be avoided by telling the truth.[58]
One is permitted to tell friend he has no money to lend if he knows his friend will not pay back.[59] In addition, one can say to a collector I do not have money if he really does have since he means he does not have money for this collector.[60]
One who is asked if he has a cigarette and he does not want to give one for whatever reason can say he does not have. The intention is that although he has but for this person he does not have.[61]
When a woman goes to the mikvah it is not proper that anyone other than her husband know.[62] Therefore if a woman is asked where she is going and she is going to the mikvah she may say she is going to this and this place.[63]
There is an opinion in the poskim who says if one is sleeping and someone wants to reach him, it can be said he is not home. The reason is because when one sleeps it is as if he is not present in the house.[64]
Yankelle,
Possibly because meshanin mipnei hasholom
“Why is lying to your wife less severe than eating milk after meat?”
Perhaps because Chazel tell us clearly by Avrohum and Sarah that you are allowed to be “m’shana” lie for shalom bayis.
But, there is no source to allow the changing of the minhag, presumably.
@ujm – Yankelle: Specifically what aveira do you think there is about lying and where do you find this aveira recorded anywhere in Halacha?
מדבר שקר תרחק
@adocs – curious as to why it was better to lie which could be de’oraisa (midvar sheker tirchak) instead of the d’rabbanan of milk after meat.
It is better because for shalom there is no issur. The Chazon Ish once asked a group of bochrim – in the course of a bechinah on Elilu Metzi’os – “who learned the Perek?”. They, of course, all raised their hands. The Gaon replied that none of them learned it, for it say of the three things about which one may be m’shaneh diburo, one of them is Masechta. The Chazon Ish apparently held that if CHaZa”L say one may lie about something, there is a chiyuv to do so.
@147 – Follow the Remo and his Pesak. . .
Wow. I think you should contact Rav Zilberstein directly and immediately. He obviously forgot this RaM”A. Oy. And to think so many people rely on his psakim.
Unless he didn’t forget the RaM”A and we’re missing something here. . . Like. 50 – 60 years of hasmadah, chazarah, shimush, etc. A possibility, I presume.
To everyone that harps about אברהם & שרה
The case was ה׳ “lied” and since He doesn’t lie it must be מותר and why? Because of שלום
Who says one is allowed to lie to make it that his wife shouldn’t get angry at him (besides r zilberstien)
Although I understand the rationale for lying in order to maintain Shalom Bayis, I don’t see the practicality in claiming that he went to a Pidyon Haben. The wife will want to know who made the Pidyon Haben and where the Pidyon Haben took place. It is inevitable that his lie will be discovered; resulting in a much bigger Shalom Bayis issue as the wife will no longer trust her husband.
147/shuali,
While I agree that Rav Zilberstein psak is no doubt final, but as I have pointed out earlier, I assume that was part of the Sheilah as well: if one can rely on the Marshal for the sake of Shalom, but the psak was, being that is the final minhag, there is no heter.
According to many, a Minhag that is accepted as a “chumrah” no one has the power to override it, and is an issur of Neder as well..(see Pri Chadash Hil Yom Tov 492?)
@coffee addict – “Who says one is allowed to lie to make it that his wife shouldn’t get angry at him (besides r zilberstien)”
CHaZa”L learn it from HKB”H. Ill go with them, if you don’t mind.
Shauli,
Either I wasn’t clear or you’re not getting what I’m saying
הקב״ה “lied”not אברהם, how do you know the spouse is allowed to lie )הקב״ה is a 3rd party)
For example if I know that ראובן went to a fleishig restaurant I can lie to his wife if she asks me where he is but how do you know ראובן could
Having never been IN LEARNING
So just asking
When Leah had her 1st
baby Rashi said something
to the affect that it will create sholom bayis
(if there is a broken vase
the wife can blame it on a the child)
Is this a more down to earth proof that one can
be frugal with the truth for the sake of peace at home
ONLY ASKING
My wife can see thru a lie in my face so I trained her to accept the truth.
It took a few years to get there(not recommended for newly weds) but once you get there just go with the Emes.
Old story.
such wisdom. They will “tell over” this story for generations
While not condoning The man’s actions I will say that he pointed out that he only ate in the restaurant for “shalom bayis purposes,” too. Assuming this is true, (and halachically there is no reason to doubt him,) then his lying would be for darchei shalom and be allowed, according to Rav Zilberstei’s psak. But, if the man had grabbed a bite to eat knowing that there is (almost) always a fleishig lunch ready, just he wanted something more or better, then this would be a different situation. Because his own, wrong actions were the cause he would therefore not be allowed to lie as this would be to save himself from a wrong action and in such a scenario the proper action would have been to never eat there in the first place.
I heard this story years ago in the name of a different posek.
I have to agree (Solomon the Wise) that it seems like a stupid way to lie and bound to be discovered. And also agree (TGIShabbos) why, if he had to eat, did he have to eat meat? One can’t conclude anything definitive from this story.
So- the husband sits and learns in Kollel while his wife slaves away at home for him. It takes her 5x more time to prepare food for him- something that really bothers him to the extent he has to go out to a restaurant to get food quicker…
Prioritizing torah study without proper “derech eretz” which can be transposed with “shalom bayis”- Derech Eretz KODMA latorah.
If his wife has so much trouble in the home, HE should be helping her.
If it takes her 5x the time to get a meal prepared, let him come home 30 minutes early and help her prepare. That way they spend time together (which will make her happy) and he will get his food earlier (making him happy)
The question seems so Geiva’dic its embarrassing. The RAV’s answer was bde’eved.
L’chatchila he needs to learn to respect his wife and her wishes and realize that a spouse is an equal and not a slave.
ikar chosur min hasefer. how long after eating fleishig??? if more than one hour, there would be an additional tzad to allow milchig in a case of shalom bayis that does not involve a de’oraysah
@Yankelle: One may not lie and one may not each milk after meat. However, one is also not allowed to hurt another’s feelings or cause conflict. Jewish law has rules as to what takes precedence over what in various situations. As you have seen from many other posters, the rule is that one may bend the truth in order to preserve peace, but should try to minimize the lie whenever possible. Preserving peace doesn’t mean that if I did something wrong I may lie to avoid the flak! But it does mean that the other person will be offended if I tell the out-and-out truth, so I may be tactful and avoid hurting someone’s feelings.
@coffee addict: Did you read all the posts with the sources re telling a lie to preserve peace?! This man being sensitive to his wife’s feelings and trying to prevent hurt and anger is certainly called preserving peace. I don’t get your question!
@Solomon the Wise: It depends on how smart or stupid the husband is. He can say that he passed by such and such shul or hall and the baby’s father, a stranger, told him to please take a bite because it’s a big zechus as much as 84 taaneisim, etc. etc. and he just couldn’t resist the opportunity. Of course, had he known that she was working so hard to make his favorite dish he wouldn’t have done it, but he so much appreciates her going out of her way to prepare his favorite food. He can’t wait for them to enjoy it together for supper (after the 6 hours). But if he has no seichel, then you have a point.
@TGISHabbos: Yes, he surely should offer to help her rather than complain about how slow she is – unless he’d do it rolling his eyes and she’d take it as criticism of her slowness. Here, too, he would need seichel and good middos to do that right.
It certainly does sound like things are a bit ‘off’ in that house. If they had a healthy relationship, he wouldn’t ask such a shaila. He’d just tell her, “Oy vey – I can’t believe it! I just tasted something fleishig and now can’t eat these delicious blintzes for the next 6 hours. And after all your hard work!” But with underlying issues, it’s another story. That’s when being sho’el eitza with a talmid chochom is a good idea.
For all going into the technical parts; I guess you never heard Rav Zilberstein, many of his great shiurim are kind of hypothetical , the main objective point is to demonstrate the halacha from diff angles.
Coffee Addict, why should the spouse themselves be any different than an outsider?
Our brother and sisters in Eretz Yisroel are fleeing from rocket attacks every night from a sworn enaemy which lurks just a few miles away and this bloody nonsense is the top story?
Lad,
“Yes, he surely should offer to help her rather than complain about how slow she is ”
Asides that the very Shaileh is for Halchik demonstrative purposes only, who said he didn’t offer?. Perhaps the wife takes pride in doing it herself?
On the same note, I remember hearing from Rav Avigdor Miller ZL , one of the tips to Shalom Bayis that if one is hungry leaving work, he should stop and eat a snack, so he should come home in a better mode etc. The only problem here was that he ate Fleishigs..
the question is not so simple, since the waiting between fleisch and dairy is a minhag (which also varies according to community, in Ashkenaz being either 1, 3 or 6 hours). The d”oraita part is only eating it together. However, the answer of lying for darchei shalom is a good solution, although it is not perfect either, as we don’t know if she could find out the truth later.
From reading the comments I can only conclude, this why we ask our questions to rabbanim with daas torah and not to hamon am.
Dy,
Because he’s doing it “so he won’t get in trouble”
Going behind your spouse’s back and doing something they don’t like and then lying about it smells of immaturity
I am reminded about the story of the avereich who went to the Steipler to speak about the major problem in his house as it was never ready on time for Shabbos. The Steipler replied “GRAB A BROOM!”
An avreich is taking my donation dollars to eat out? Really? Does that show an achrayus to supporters?
Why the eitzah as to have him help his wife in the kitchen when he comes home is beyond me. You cannot tell me he is such a bumbler as tobe unable to set the table, chop vegetables, etc
This whole story sounds a bit more like a bubba meisa. If this avreich is so hungry when he gets home from the beis medrash, why doesn’t he grab a (parve) snack from the frig (some fruit, a salad, etc.) while his wife his busy making her blinztes or whatever Sounds “fishy” that he felt obligated to stop off and eat a fleishig meal in the middle of the day. And then he goes home, finds th blinztes on the table and runs back to the beis medrash while his blintzes get cold asking his rebbe for a heter to go back home and eat the blintzes?? Seems like he made up this whole story about lyong to his wife for shalom bayis.
Obviously, the Rav was asked after the fact. The story was that the tachshit was confronted with a plate of cheese blintzes, so a decision had to be made on the spot. So what did the guy do? the story doesn’t include that priceless information.
Conclusion: The Rav made the story up and taught it as an exercise in psak. That’s his style.
P.S. Someone on this site recently doubted Rav Zilberstein’s reputation as a legitimate posek. He obviously is, and a major one at that. So to that person, please do your homework before you ridicule a widely known Torah figure.
Rational….I don’t think anyone is challenging the Rav’s integrity or legitimacy…..its the way some of these articles present the stories as factual rather than hypotheticals based on a composite of some prior events which may or may not have actually occurred.