16 Responses

1. Without Torah,this is just a waste of time,energy and lives!!
   V’lYerusholayim Ircha b’Rachamim Toshuv….. Es Tzemach Dovid Avd’cho M’HEIRO …..

2. No one, absolutely no one has commented on this! Gevalt! My son is now learning in a yeshiva in Yerushalayim Ir HaKodesh and is scheduled to return to the U.S.A. for Rosh Chodesh Nisan. Who knows if his yeshiva will exist in another year! And we have nothing better to do than talk about the latest politics in the yeshiva world. Rachmona Litzlan! Will this mean back to the “good old days” of the Jordanian occupation!

3. Instead of it being Yerushalayim on the chopping block, they should put Tzipi’s head on it (pictured in this article.)

4. #4
   Yes it goes both ways
   of course we want to have access and control of all of Eretz Yisroel
   but lets not forget we are in galus
   As far as I understand
   HaRav Shach Zatz”l said: we have to do what’s best for our security!

   Also HaRav Elyashiv Shlit”a said a few times in the last few months, for security we should not give back any of Jerusalem, I will move out of Jerusalem if they give back part to E.Y. I remember my daughter killed by bombs of the Arabs. [in ‘48]. end quote

   Any body with any brains, looking at history of the last fifty years, will know there will never be piece with the Arabs till Mashich comes
   All they want is our land and our blood, not our piece.

   So to give back Jerusalem to them, would according to the Gedolim, be Asuur.
   but the Reshaim don’t listen to the Gedolim, they are just doing what ever they fell like.

   It sure makes sense, what many have begged for : Shas should bring down the government now. Ever extra second of this government is a big sacanah.

   Hashem Yishmor

5. Pashuteh Yid, I commend you on your sanity and level-headedness. You have hit the nail on the head. If we are truly anti-Zionist and faithful to the hashkafa of the Torah and our gedolim, we should indeed be celebrating this news. The problem is that people today are very confused and inconsistent on this issue due to the powerful influence of newspapers like the Yated.

6. “If we are truly anti-Zionist and faithful to the hashkafa of the Torah and our gedolim, we should indeed be celebrating this news”.
   THE QUESTION IS: Why isnt Rav Elyashiv and Rav Steinman celebrating this awesome news????

7. I have always been confused:-

   1) On the one hand the Gedolim are very opposed to returning any land, but on the other hand we don’t support the IDF nor send boys to the army? (Everyone shouted mad when Gaza was returned but who wants their little boy patrolling out there looking after those Behamos?)

   2) We all go to the Kosel on Shaboss/Yom Tov and yet have to be protected by young Jewish boys who are Mechalel Shabbos to ensure our safety?

8. Pashuteh,

   While our leaders were opposed to the formation of the anti-Torah state, no one said it should be handed over to the “palestinians” (or Arabs, for that matter).

   For the Government to decide to GIVE it to the Arabs may be wrong for more than one reason, but it is flat out stupid and definitely wrong according to all from a safety perspective.

9. My understanding of the correct Torah hashkafa vis-a-vis Israel and giving back land is this (and I believe it is 100% consistent):

   The majority of the gedolim in the mid 20th Century (and earlier) correctly warned that Israel’s creation was very problematic from a religious point of view, and would also, from a practical point of view, be a tremendous problem and danger to Jews and, therefore, did not want the State to come into existence. The “religious Zionists” disagreed. Of course, those who know the true history are aware what a fiasco and massive tragedy Zionism has been to the Jewish people and how extremely unlikely it is that the Torah would sanction or condone such a State.

   However, now that the Zionists already have Yerushalayim in their control AND have inflamed the Arabs to hate Jews to the degree that they do, the seemingly-only practicak question remaining vis-a-vis Zionism is how to ensure the safety of the Jews in Eretz Yisrael.

   Since, at this point, if Israel hands over to the Arabs more land, in the framework of this “peace process”, Jews might, G-d forbid, be in greater danger than the Zionism had previously put them in. That being the case, no Jew can be happy about Yerushalayim being given back, regardless of their individual coherence on the evils of Zionism.

   Thus, unlike Zionism, which placed the need to create their State ABOVE the need to preserve Jewish lives, lihavdil, however, bein Tamei liTahor, the Torah places the need to preserve life above (almost) all else, and certainly places pikuach nefesh far above (anti-Torah) political aspirations like that if acquiring political capital to form the State of Israel.

   So the anti-Zionist shita seems quite consistent in their overriding concern for human life above all else including, ironically, the incorrectness of Zionist control over Yerushalayim (and the rest, of course).

10. There is no connection between not holding of the state and automatically believing that the land should be given to the Arabs. While many gedolim held that one can’t have anything to do with the state the chazon Ish held that one must still work with the state in order to accomplish what’s best for yidden. Recognising that giving land to the Arabs leads to sakans nefashos it is definitely not permissibile according to any gedolim to give land to the Arabs. This in no way requires one to celebrate any zionist holiday as we thank hakadosh boruch hu every day and in no way can we be machzik yidei ovrei Aveira by celebrating their holidays.

11. HaKatan – Yahser Koach for your pshat.

12. #16 – You know, Reb Shalom, for someone to use the words “just another place…” and “…no more significance…” when referring to Eretz Yisrael may show a Miraglim-based indifference to The Land. May I remind you that because of such comments the “Dor-deah” was not allowed into Eretz Yisrael.

13. Pashuteh,

    Here is a post I recalled seeing here a year ago on a freedman article.

    “The fact that Zionism increased the hatred [of Yishmoel towards us] is already written in the Ramak commentary on the Zohar P’ Lech Lecho. When the Zohar states that Yishmael will make trouble at the end of the Golus, the Ramak says “because they made a state”. And Rav Hutner Ztza”l has a fascinating explanation why Edom and Yishmael “switch” their levels of hatred when a jewish state is created.
    …”

    Comment by MDshweks — January 16, 2007 @ 1:16 am

14. #19, I am not an historian and I cannot claim to have seen original documents; I know only what I have seen and heard from others.

    First, a basic point: Esav Sonei LiYaakov applies to Yishmael, too, from what I have seen, and Osama Bin Laden is certainly not, by any means, a fine individual. But that is almost irrelevant to the issue of Zionism.

    Regarding Israel being a terrible tragedy, etc.:

    I have heard and seen much on the topic, but I don’t want to elaborate more than I already have in other posts since the Internet is the place for everything (though it is all out there – Google is your friend, as there are literally volumes on the subjects).

    In brief, Zionism has had its roles (plural) it actively and passively played during WW II and the resultant effect it had on Ashkenzim, and the Zionists have persecuted the Sefardim enormously, physically and spiritually, during and after the founding of the State.

    That’s all verifiable history, whose ramifications are still being played out today. In addition, by now, the Zionists have mostly managed to convince the world that they represent Jews. This is problematic for a number of reasons, one of which is that Jews are mistakenly associated with every stupid and anti-Torah act that the Zionists continue to commit against the Arabs, the world, or themselves.

    In any event, had the Zionists not done their many dirty deeds, Eretz Yisrael would likely be a non-Jewish secular member of the British commonwealth, like Australia or Canada. Thus there is no reason why Jews would not be able to (eventually) daven at the kosel nor learn in Yerushalayim. This is all biderech heTeva; Moshiach could have come long ago, too. Of course we can only speculate since Zionism has been in existence from long before 1948, but we certainly have no proof, nor even any logical reason to assume, that tefilla and torah in Eretz Yisrael were only made possible with Israel’s founding.

    As for the “refuge” bit, look at Israel now. Israel has never known a day of peace in the best of times; if G-d forbid the situation were to worsen, would Israel be a refuge or a trap? I dare not write my suspicions on that question, though I sincerely hope Moshiach comes to redeem us soon and that my question above will remain purely academic, as the global economy is not good at the moment and that doesn’t do us any good.

    So, in the final analysis, Zionism has hurt many Jews, Ashkenaz and Sefard, in many ways and has not ever been and is not “safe” even now, so there is no guarantee it will be a refuge for anybody at any time nor for how long it will last, if at all.

    In addition, and somewhat ironically, Zionism has as a goal the eradication of our religion, so is it really such a great idea to go from the frying pan into the fire, so to speak?

    Regarding your theoretical proposition that Israel do teshuva and give the entire land to the Arabs and Islam’s hate toward the Jews and the West:

    Since the Arabs, within their makeup of Pereh Adam, believe that we corrupted their Qur’an, and that they have the real thing (unlike the Christians who believe we got the “Old Testament” as we have it whereas they, who “believe” received the “New Testament” which, they believe, supersedes it), the religious among them cannot, therefore, be too comfortable with us to begin with.

    But according to their ideology, we are people of the book, and are to be treated as inferior second class citizens. This is in contrast with the false deicide charges and consequential punishments brought against us throughout history by Christians.

    That is, I believe, the extent of their “inborn hate”; some Muslims may be more fanatical than others and actively hate non-Muslims including al-chitab, people of the book, while others may denigrate Jews but not harm them, and others may treat Jews like, lihavdil, “Eved Ivri” while still others simply do not care. The verses later in the Koran regarding the hatred of Jews are what they are, but the earlier verses I quoted remain in contradiction to those and must be accounted for.

    However it is the Pereh Adam that the Zionists brought out in them, which we see so clearly today.

    As I mentioned above, the Mufti, whom you mentioned, had a cordial relationship with Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld, Zatzal. And he told Rav Yosef Chaim that if you Jews want to live here, fine. But if you try to take over, it will not be good. That’s certainly what it seems like happened. By the way, the Zionists reached out to Hitler YM”SH, too, so the Mufti is not alone in that regard.

    Their other world disputes prove this Pereh Adam nature as well. Therefore, I do not believe that the Muslim hate is so easily reversible, at this point. Remember, too, that we are not dealing with the am hanivchar and concepts like mechila and lo sikom vilositor of a basis of bayshanim rachmanim and gomlei chasadim.

    At the same time, let’s not forget that many Jews built up Israel into what it is today, and whatever claims the Arabs may have, they are, in reality, nowhere near what they claim them to be. Much of Israel was built-up in the last 60 years and the Arabs did go to war against the Jews so one could argue that Egypt and Jordan should resettle the “Palestinians”. But facts are not important to the Arab mind; subjectivity is far greater than objectivity.

    Of course, the logistics of evacuating the country of every last Jew before allowing the Arabs to run rampant and destroy its infrastructure like they did in Gaza, are obviously overwhelming to impossible.

    So I believe that the Muslim hate is a mix of both factors, but is overwhelmingly the result of the “land dispute” issue and background, as brought out by their pereh adam nature. Again, though, now that events are where they are, the safety of the Jews in Israel is more important than (almost) any religious ideology, and giving them Yerushalayim would be catastrophic.

    So since both ways are problematic, I assume the shev viAl Taaseh approach of don’t give land to them is preferable to the kum vaAseh alternative of destroying the State of Israel and endangering, G-d forbid, its citizens. Even NK doesn’t advocate actively destroying Israel, do they?

    As for Chevron, as I mentioned, the Sefardim in Chevron were not touched because the Arabs knew that they were not Zionists. What the Arabs did not know was that the Ashkenazi students in Chevron were also not Zionists. The Arabs thought they were Zionists and attacked because they were told (mistakenly, perhaps) that Al Aqsa was in danger after a certain Zionist Rabbi proclaimed “Shema Yisrael HaKotel Shelanu HaKotel Echad”. Again we see how Jewish lives were needlessly and senselessly taken because of Zionist provocation.

    Bin Ladin is a fanatical religious Muslim who obviously believes in his Kuran that Muslims must rule the world and kill and/or subjugate all non-believers; Israel is merely an excuse, as he is still a politician and does need to garner up support for his platform.

    Did I miss anything?

15. HaKatan: Well said (once again.)

16. Joseph: Baruch tihye, from before – thanks, and further thanks for your second compliment. (In my haste to finish gathering my thoughts to make my point, I neglected to thank you earlier and I apologize for that.)

    Pasuteh Yid: I respect your point of view, and I like your mashal. But yours is not the mashal I would have chosen.

    If you asked me to frame the point in baseball terms, I might put the mashal this way: My position is more like trying to convince a former die-hard Red Sox fan that, upon moving to NY, he should root for the Mets – because, while he could never bring himself to root for the Yankees, the Mets, however, are in a different league than the Red Sox.

    In other words, as I said, we root for the safety of our fellow Jews, not the destruction of Israel on one hand nor the establishment of a Greater Israel on the other. Safety of Jews is paramount; it is above (almost) all else, Zionism included.

    As you said, we are obviously happy to be able to daven at the kosel and, lichaora, owe our gratitude to Hashem and also to the Israeli police and IDF if we do. But that’s irrelevant to the discussion.

    And what makes Israel the home team? That they’re Jews in Eretz Yisrael? So what? And if they advocate Gilui Arayos (which they essentially do) would you still root for them?

    And what is there to be proud of? Military victory? Arabs are not exactly the world’s greatest fighters, and, more importantly, fighting is not our department. HaKol…Kol Yaakov – that is our pride and strength, and not military victories, **even necessary ones**, as justified as they may be.

    Take the story of Chanukah. What is the true simcha of Chanukah – that Yehuda HaMaccabi won the battle or that we were able to observe the Torah and not be banned from making Bris Milos and shemiras Shabbos? I hope you’d say the latter.

    Or should we be proud that we are in control of the Kosel (we’re not really in control, but let’s say we are, just for argument’s sake) even though Hashem sent us to Galus? Doesn’t seem like much to be proud of.

    Yes, it’s nice to have the Kosel. But, so what? And, as I said above, who said we wouldn’t be able to worship there had the Zionists not come around?

    And look what the Zionists did to Kever Yosef haTzadik. Not only did they abandon it and allow it to be desecrated, but they also left a non-Jewish soldier to bleed to death there. Are you proud of that, too?

    And look at how Israel lets the Muslims destroy so many priceless archeological finds from Bayis Rishon on Har HaBayis, of all places. With guardians like those…

    Besides, if at the end of the day (until Mashiach) it will all be given to the Arabs (and that is the way the political winds have been heading for a long time now), wouldn’t it have been better to have the Christians rule it and permit everyone access and not have gone through all those wars and suicide bombings et al?

    But I would even grant you that with all the tzaar that came with Zionism, that maybe, as a chesed Hashem allow us to go to our mekomos hakedoshim. But that does not make the founding of the State of Israel correct; it only shows Hashem’s chesed even in the darkness of Zionism.

    Also, that Israel or anything else was created through nissim is irrelevant to us and is a spiritually dangerous argument to make that the nes legitimizes it (Ki Yakum…Navi…Vinasan eilecha…Os…oh Mofeis. Uva HaOs…asher diber…leimor…neilicha naavda (avoda zarah) elohim acheirim….Lo Sishma…harog tahargenu…KI MINASEH…HASHEM ESCHEM…LADAAS HAYISHCHEM…OHAVIM…ES HASHEM…IM LO).

    Yeshu also did nissim. So, by extension of your emotional argument, he would also have been right.

    Again, I respect your emotional argument for what it is and I am sure it holds sway over many others, too. But when dealing with our hashkafa, one is presumably best off with decisions based on our Torah as learned from a trusted rebbi (or at least one’s best logic) and not on one’s emotions or pride.

    As far as other gedolim holding Israel’s founding is correct, I certainly have no place in even debating, much less arguing with them. But it is worth noting that the majority of the gedolim were against creating the State (and, lichaora, Acharei Rabbim Lihatos).

    May Hashem bring shalom to His people with the geulah shileimah bimheirah viyameinu, Amein.