Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Monday that the 11 Jewish victims of the Shabbos morning massacre in Pittsburgh were killed in a “synagogue,” taking a veiled swipe at the country’s ultra-Orthodox chief rabbis, who had refused to designate the Conservative Jewish congregation as such.
The exchange exposed some of the recent strains between Israel and the more liberal Jewish Diaspora, even in the wake of the deadliest anti-Semitic attack against Jews in U.S. history.
The shooting has drawn fierce condemnations and calls for unity among Jews in Israel and around the world. Several ultra-Orthodox Israeli newspapers, however, refrained from calling Pittsburgh’s Tree of Life Synagogue a Jewish place of worship since they don’t recognize non-Orthodox denominations, instead mostly referring to it as a “Jewish center.”
Similarly, Chief Rabbi David Lau told a local newspaper that the shooting attack was “unforgivable” but also referred to the Conservative synagogue merely as “a place with a profound Jewish flavor.”
In a tweet, Netanyahu seemed to rebuff him.
“Jews were killed in a synagogue. They were killed because they are Jews. The location was chosen because it is a synagogue. We must never forget that. We are one,” he wrote.
Jews were killed in a synagogue. They were killed because they are Jews. The location was chosen because it is a synagogue. We must never forget that. We are one
— Benjamin Netanyahu (@netanyahu) October 29, 2018
יהודים נרצחו בבית כנסת. הם נרצחו על היותם יהודים. המיקום נבחר מפני שהוא בית כנסת. לעולם אין לשכוח זאת. אנו עם אחד
— Benjamin Netanyahu (@netanyahu) October 29, 2018
Israel’s ultra-Orthodox often question the faith and practices of the more liberal Reform and Conservative streams of Judaism, to which most American Jews unfortunately belong.
Netanyahu’s coalition government relies on the support of Chareidi parties and he has often had to capitulate to their demands on matters of religion and state. The Chareidi establishment views other strains of Judaism as too lax in many issues – such as Geirus and marriages, while American Jews have increasingly felt that they haven’t been valued in Israel as equals despite their ardent backing and identification.
A government decision to scrap plans for a mixed-gender prayer area at the Kosel, and insults hurled at those pushing for it, has led American Jewish leaders to warn that it could undermine their long-standing political, financial and emotional support for Israel.
The recent passing of a controversial law enshrining the state’s Jewish character, which critics at home and abroad say has undercut Israel’s traditional democratic values, has also irked American Jews, who increasingly find themselves at odds with the government’s nationalist, religious and pro-settlement bent.
Media personality Judy Nir Mozes published a tweet in which she criticized the Chief Rabbis of Israel, Rishon L’Tzion HaGaon HaRav Yitzchak Yosef and Chief Ashkenazi Rabbi HaGaon HaRav Dovid Lau, following an article in which they refrained from referring to the Tree of Life Shul in Pittsburgh as a “synagogue” because it is affiliated with the Conservative Movement.
Nir Moses shared the article and called the chief rabbis “miserable. “People were murdered in the synagogue only because they are Jews, and you, you wretched ones, cannot even honor them with their death?”
אנשים נרצחו בבית הכנסת רק כי הם יהודים ואתם,עלובים שכמתותכם לא מסוגלים אפילו לכבד אותם במותם?האלהים שאני מאמינה בו,מכבד כל יהודי גם אם הוא קונסרבטיבי או רפורמי.אני משוכנעת שלו היה יכול היה מתנער מצוות צרי מח שאתם.
לאוו ג׳וניור,אבא שלך לא היה מתבטא ככה.חבל שהתפוח נפל רחוק מהעץ… pic.twitter.com/Gh1pUMYmEA— Judy Mozes (@JudyMozes) October 29, 2018
Nir Moses added: “The God I believe in respects every Jew, even if he is a Conservative or a Reform Jew. Nir-Mozes turned to Rabbi Lau in a dismissive way and wrote: “Lau Junior, your father would not express himself like that, it’s a shame that the apple fell far from the tree.”
Yair Lapid, head of the centrist opposition Yesh Atid party, said the tragic shooting should serve as a reminder to “those who claim the Reform and the Conservative are not real Jews.” He called on the government to restore the mixed-gender prayer site and to recognize the conversions of all strains.
“The state of Israel bows its heads for their deaths, but this is not enough,” he said in parliament. “Not only in their deaths are they Jews like us, but in their lives. Not only in their deaths should the government respect them, but also in their lives.”
(AP / YWN Israel Desk – Jerusalem)
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82 Responses
It’s a synagogue. It’s not a place I would daven in, but Nazis really don’t discriminate if you keep kosher or not, chalav Yisrael or not, halachic shabbos or not.
Nir Mozes,
Your father would have not have expressed himself like that
would have more respect for a chief rabbi
The rabbis are, of course, correct that the Conservative Temple isn’t a synagogue. The irreligious Netanyahu and those MKs are amaratzim. But even calling the Conservative House of Heresy ““a place with a profound Jewish flavor” is more than is permitted to be said. Reform/Conservative worship houses have no Jewish flavor and are entirely unrelated to Judaism.
The rabbis are right. YWN is making it controversial.
The shooter does not know the differences between Orhtodoxy and Conservative and just wanted a place where there were Jews to kill and even if the people that were attacked werent even halachic jews, that was just a mistake by the shooter, he wanted to kill anyone he thought was a jew
What a terrible חילול השם. While there are certainly appropriate times to have this discussion about what is or is not recognized from an Orthodox or Frum perspective, this is not the time. Calling the Tree of Life a synagogue in the context of this horrific act is wholly appropriate. The chief rabbis were wrong to dismiss that and to bring negativite attention in the wake of the outpouring of support. Calling it a synagogue does not recognize anything, quite frankly it shows a lack of savvy on how this would be taken.
In English- a “synagogue” is the perfect word. It is usually used to describe reform and conservative temples. Most orthodox shuls do not use the word synagogue – a term which is derived from the Greek language.. any native english speaker understands this.
The Bal Habbos knows better than the Talmidei Chachomim, what a chillul Hashem!
Truthteller doesn’t like the truth. Who are you to tell rabbonim what to write?
Amazing this crop of Rabbonim of today. Zero seichel. They all live in a bubble. How else can I explain this lapse of judgement? Hope he apologizes.
ytvalumni:
So you are ok with “temple”? For your information, temple is the word used in English to describe the Botei Mikdash.
And since you are a self-styled expert on such matters, would a Young Israel be a synagogue? How do you draw the line? What do you know anything about the conservative movement. It is much closer to MO than to reform.
Life is fun in your ivory tower mocking everyone down below.
TGIShabbos:
How do you know they are mechalelai shabbos? Many individuals are. But many are not. Show us where in the conservative literature it says that chilul shabbos is ok.
I have a conservative friend, in Pittsburgh no less, who may well keep shabbos better than you.
I’m wondering what this ” baby naming ” was. Was it a bris? Why were there no children there? No baby there?
Stuartw,
Pagans have temples too
Temples definition is place to worship God (however He is defined)
There is no controversy here. The opinion of amei ha’aretz and kofrim does not stand up to that of Talmidei Chachomim. They are not barei plugta of the Chief Rabbis. This is not to demean the death of innocent Yidden (assuming they really were such). What the Nazis would have or wouldn’t have done is patently irrelevant. The killer is a vicious monster, but the Shechina is not present in a non-halachic “house of worship.” The non-Torah viewpoint ought not be validated by calling it an “opinion.”
From Miriam Webster dictionary:
synagogue noun
syn·a·gogue | \ˈsi-nə-ˌgäg \
variants: or less commonly synagog
Definition of synagogue
1 : a Jewish congregation
2 : the house of worship and communal center of a Jewish congregation
How is it not both 1 and 2.
The rabbis are wrong.
Hitler gassed millions of reform, conservative, modern orthodox, ultra orthodox and any other branch under the sun.
A Jew is a Jew is a Jew. Until we all realize that we will see more tumult and less of A chance of moshiach coming.
Oy mah Haya lanu!
Stuart,
The conservative movement officially sanctions driving to their houses of worship on Shabbos
Shlomor:
Oy G-ttenyu THIS is what is important to you now? No baby was hurt. That’s all you need to know.
Bunch of idiot bloggers. How dare you criticize the chief rabbi’s. Do you know any Halacha? Evidentially they feel there is a problem giving their place of worship the title shul. Some of these bloggers would probably criticize the shulchan aruch for many of our halochos they feel uncomfortable with. Halacha DOESN”T change because of a tragic incident. I would advise those criticizing the chief rabbis to write them an apology letter.
@shlomor
3 synagogues were low in membership and combined into one building which houses all 3 synagogues.
The bris was in a different minyan and I heard the baby wasn’t in the building yet.
mylogic37 and you have zero seichel for making such a disgusting comment about gedolai torah.
To 1
Everyone know that Chief Rabbi is a political position and certainly not people that are infallible. This was in my opinion, of which I am entitled, a serious lapse in judgement and a חילול השם. Almost every other Frum organization that commented called it a synagogue or at the very least a house of worship. To bring attention to this at this time was not the appropriate time. From Satmar to Lakewood comments that seemed more appropriate were made.
We are on a boat.
And if somebody desires to drill a whole
only in his private room, a nice person !
They are dangerous people no matter how nice they are.
Its The tree of poison.
The enemy started in Germany where the Reform moved away from the the real Tree of Life.
We are on a boat.
And if somebody desires to drill a hole
only in his private room, a nice person !
They are dangerous people no matter how nice they are.
Its The tree of poison.
The enemy started in Germany where the Reform moved away from the the real Tree of Life.
another nail in the coffin of the institutionalized Israeli Rabbinate; hopefully they will soon be a memory. if gedolim of the past could call conservative rabbis, rabbis, what has changed that these two individuals need a new source of antagonism among our people.
Stuart, you created such a nasty dialogue, but I’ll respond since you asked questions. I know at least a few of the congregants are mechalel shabbos because when watching CNN today they interviewed the chef and kitchen staff at Pamela’s P and G diner in Pittsburgh, and the staff were explaining how some of the members who were killed liked to order a certain dish before shabbos services on Saturday mornings. Regarding mechalel shabbos, please read the principals of Solomon Schechter regarding driving to Shul on shabbos and a microphone in the Shul. According to orthodox practices, those are forbidden and I will not break shabbos to drive to Shul or sit with women in the Shul. Regarding your conservative friend keeping shabbos better than me, it’s an insult and a threat as you don’t know me, I don’t know your friend, but I know what the foundations and principals of conservative Judaism teach, and if that’s he case I don’t see how your friend maintains the 39 laws of shabbos better than I.im sure your friend is a fine person, but if he were serious about Torah Halacha, and a congregation that honors ALL shabbos halachos he would be a member of an Orthodox Shul. I’ve taught at Sunday schools for conservative shuls, wonderful people- shabbos observant they are not!
This conversation is just sick 11 people were killed for one reason only because they were Jewish leave it alone
Cousin Sue: you are absolutely incorrect. The ‘United Synagogue’ of the United Kingdom is the well known official English name for the largest group of orthodox shulls in the U.K. The place where reformers ‘do their thing’ is always referred to as a ‘temple’.
Nir Moses: Nice to know you are now spokesperson for G-d, and can tell us all whom G-d ‘respects’.
To everyone else: To refer to a conservative prayer center as a ‘synagogue’ is a legitimization of their false religion as Judaism, because in the Jewish religion- prayer is conducted in a ‘synagogue’. Why should anyone give conservative Judaism legitimacy for one second?
The fact that these people who died- who may even be kedoshim (because they died because they were Jewish), were Jewish, has nothing to do with the fact that conservative Judaism is oxymoronic tripe.
StuartW: If there are two servants of the king: Reuven does 45% of the kings commandments, and Shimon does 99.9% of the king’s commandments, you would think that Shimon is more loyal to the king than Reuven -right? However if the reason behind this is because Reuven accepts upon himself all of the king’s commandments- but he just doesn’t manage to live up to it, and Shimon only accepts upon himself 99.9% of the king’s commandments, then we can clearly see that it is in fact Reuven who is the loyal servant.
The fact that your conservative friend keeps shabbos 100% but refuses to accept all the rabbinical decrees, means he is a mumar ledavar echad and an apikores. Not rocket science.
It is not a synogogue, period. I fail to see how frum people can say it is. Unless you are not frum either and you consider goyim to be Yidden because their father’s father was a Jew. Whatever you people say doesn’t matter, halacha and Rabbonim are the ones who have the final say on who is a Jew and who is not and whether this was a synogogue or not.
This issue does not take away from the fact that these murders were a terrible tragedy, irrelevant to the fact of whether the victims were Jewish or not.
TGI and Sammy,
A common refrain though it is, it is not accurate.
The Nazis accepted the karaites on their word that they weren’t Jews and did not round them up [although prior to arrival the Nazi they claimed they were Jews]
Many chabad also prefer driving to shul on shabbos rather than not go to shul at all. The dedicated among the conservative dont drive.
The kickback I got was expected from you guys though.
Truth teller, it isn’t a shul. They are right. Whether it’s institutional or not, they have more daas torah than you.
DrYidd,[sic]
so Chief Rabbinate
originally a Mizrahi invention should now be obsolete cuz it’s too inconvenient politically for you guys ?
StuartW,
Had the movement stopped with Shabbos desecration ,Your justification might be understandable At this sad moment of time.
we both know however that they keep and will keep pushing the envelope further and further AND
who you umbrella with is of utmost importance
Let’s be very clear. Everyone agrees this was a tragedy and our brothers were killed because they were Jews.
But let’s say this happened in a “Messianic Temple” to people born Jewish. It would be a tragedy and they would’ve been killed for being Jews. But do you think it would be proper to call it a synagogue or a Jewish Place of Worship?
I’m not saying that the case is equal, I’m not qualified to say. But you see that there is a line to be drawn on what can be called a legitimate Jewish place of worship.
Do a little research on both the reform and conservative (of today) movements and you will have your answer.
I applaud the Chief Rabbis for having the courage to be true to the Torah. It would have been far easier and popular to have used the word “synagogue”.
Truthteller’s commnt maks the real point. When acting in a political capacity as government appointees, the tzibur has a legitimate expectation that the “chief rabbis” will function in a unifying and healing role in times of tragedy. To diminish the scope of these tragedy because they were davening in non-orthodox venue was incredibly tone deaf and disrespectful. This was the same point made by Netanyahu when he criticized these rabbonim.
Gadolhadora,
Who is “diminishing the tragedy”?
More than being Government appointees they are Rabbis whose first allegiance is to truth and G-d.
Trumpkopf Jr. (aka VP Pence), who has become the lap dog of the Trumpkopf in Chief, invited a Messianic “Jewish” Rabbi (aka Yidden for Jesus) to offer blessing at an event today in Michigan. In his focus on the victims of the Pittsburgh massacre. Pence introduced “Rav” Loren Jacobs, from the Messianic synagogue Shema Yisrael. who managed to invoke te name of XXXX the Messiah to honor the memory of the victims. Apparently, there are no “real” rabbonim in the State of Michigan.
If daas Torah runs counter to your sensibilities, that doesn’t make daas Torah wrong. It just means your sensibilities are not aligned with daas Torah. If you spend as much time learning Torah as these two rabbonim then and only then can you argue with them about daas Torah. If you want a politically correct opinion go to the Prime Minister.
Its time for the truth, yes the institution does not attract gedolai israel like RSG ztl or ROY ztl , etc. we now have second-rate apparatchiks and due to RSYE ztl a felon to boot. zei helfen vie a toiten bankes.
Temple is ok but Synagogue is not? Where is it written that synagogue implies orthodox? You are all Greek experts now? You are arguing over a Greek word
TGIShabbos:
Sorry I offended you. I was speaking hypothetically: he MAY observe shabbos better than you. It was not intended as a commentary on you.
I should have used ploni as an example person, and not you.
I am glad you made me aware so I got a chance to ask mechila.
Reform & Conservative are working very hard to gain legitimacy in E”Y and it is the job of the Chief Rabbis to do everything in their power to minimise this legitimacy and associated power to draw people to join their misguided anti Halocho movements.
This includes not using words that can later be used by these movements to support their claim that they are legitimate rabbis, communities or congregations.
Although this shooting was a terrible event, which should be condemned, carried out by someone who does not discriminate or care about the type of jew he was killing… this does not mean that the Chief Rabbis should change their longstanding and clear position, including how they use semantics, which could otherwise later be misquoted and used as support..
We should learn from the Chief Rabbis to not let out emotions override our longstanding principles put in place to protect Klal Yisroel.
In my opinion the most controversial thing about this article was the title and this ‘non news’ should never have even been reported here..
Of course the Chief Rabbis were correct by not calling it whatever it was in Hebrew that they didn’t call it. IT’S NOT THAT SO DON’T FLUFF IT UP TO THAT NAME.
The proud father and father mishkav zocherniks of this “bris kid” must be thrilled with their free publicity.
I find it horrifying that rather than expressing mourning and outrage, rabbanim choose to parse the specific religious affiliation of Tree of Life. Rav Yoshe Ber, zt’l, stated that Jews have two internal covenants: a covenant of faith and a covenant of fate. The latter, shared by all of us, does not check our tzitzis to determine how we daven and with which stream we affiliate.
Just as the Nazis did not differentiate among us: a Jew was a Jew and deserved to die, so it was with the evil Pittsburgh shooter. Our reaction must not be fractured and must not highlight our internal differences. Rather, we must present a unified response in support of our co-religionists, whose only sin was to go to daven on a Shabbos morning.
Dryidd, you said “f gedolim of the past could call conservative rabbis, rabbis…” R Moshe in all of his teshuvos about conservative never once called these people by ״רב״. Always using the term ״רעבאי״, obviously it was meant to be derogatory. I don’t think if the Chief Rabbis would have used the term ״סעינעגאוג״ it would have looked really well.
To everyone else, there are major shailos of חנופה involved when you make public statements about people desecrating torah. Everyone here is just saying their opinion of what “feelsl right”, but nobody here has made one halachic argument.
Stuart, you insulted and threatened me and I respectfully answered your questions with eye witnesses and conservative rabbinic sources as proof. Please consider permanently leaving this forum if you continue to lie and provide insults towards orthodox sect. No one here means to insult conservative Judaism, many are defining it as it is~ not fully Shomer shabbos or Shomer kosher. No one here is the ultimate judge and determines reward or punishment. Lastly, Chabad absolutely doesn’t encourage members to specially drive to services on shabbos. Many members happen to drive to the Chabad house, but are certainly not explicitly encouraged to do so. Halacha dictates that it’s better to daven alone than to drive to a minyan on shabbos. Again, I respect with love that you are a conservative Jew (because you are a fellow Jew) the question is do you respect or love me as an Orthodox Jew?
Why the debate? Just call it a conservative synagogue. That is enough for us to know it is not a legitamite house of worship.
Any movement which designates a place of worship for serving the One Above in a manner contrary to our sacred
שלחן ערוך is exactly what the Satan wants. Destroy Yiddishkeit slowly but surely from within.
Anyone who does not denounce such movements are שותפיׁם.
Nobody denouncing the MOVEMENT is denouncing the INDIVIDUALS who were mercilessly killed.
The latter, having been killed BECAUSE they were Jews, are described as no less then קדושים, by חז”ל
YWN uses the word “Controversy” in this article.
Isn’t that word used in regard to equals?
Are seculars equipped to have a controversy with our Rabbanut?
The latter are trying to stop the terrible poison gripping the USA spreading to Eretz Hakoidesh.
Let us applaud them and give them every support in protecting our Torah and the insult to Hashems רצון.
Yes, the Rabbanut is paid by the seculars. All the more they deserve our admiration.
Rav Lau spoke in Hebrew not English. Here is what he said according to Kikar HaShabbat:
בתגובה לשיח בנוגע ליהדות הקונסרבטיבית אליה השתייכו הנרצחים, הגיב הרב לאו: “מה הקשר?! אין מה לערב פה את הנושא. מדובר על יהודים שנרצחו בגלל היותם יהודים. מה השאלה בכלל?! אני לא שומע ומבין איזה שיח יכול להיות על שאלה כזאת. הם נרצחו בעקבות היותם יהודים. זה משנה באיזה בית כנסת או נוסח הם מתפללים?!”.
“אני חוזר ואומר: מדובר ביהודים וצריך לא לנצל רגעים מיותרים. לא להפוך את הדברים הכואבים לנושא. זה לא הנושא בכלל. יש לי מחלוקת אידאולוגית קשה עמם בנושא יהדות, לגבי עברו וממנה השלכה לגבי עתידו של העם היהודי לדורותיו. אז מה?! אבל בגלל זה הם לא יהודיים?!”.
“יהודים נרצחו במקום שעבור הרוצח נחשב מקום עם סממן יהודי בולט. מקום עם ספרי תורה, יהודים עם טליתות, יש שם סידורים, יש שם אנשים שהגיעו לשם לצורך קרבת אלוקים. היות שכך הרוצח הגיע דווקא לשם לרצוח ולא במקום אחר. על זה הכאב והכעס”.
Politicians are always looking to get their names in the press. Sometimes rivals even get together to create a confrontation for that purpose. Netanyahu has toed the middle by calling it a synagogue without referencing Rav Lau. Now it is the turn of some Chareidi politician to blast both.
The Rabbis were not trying to bring disunity. The conservative movement is trying to bring havoc to Israel by trying to have the government recognize their group which denies the tenets of Judaism. They are going to use this tragedy to their own ends of trying to legitimize their heresy.
Jews are Jews, period.
98% of non orthodox Jews today are tinoke shenishba, and it is not a frum Jews job to criticize their religeous practices or choices. That will certainly not change them to become Torah observant.
As for those Torah Jews who think that they have a chiyuv” miDor Dor”to deligitamize and reject non orthodox Jews where ever they may be found, I say: Stop fighting the war of 1812. Its over. They are here to stay, and instead of rejoicing in their dwindling numbers due to intermarriage, try opening you cleanched fist and treating them like brothers.
This was an assault on all of us.
When five holy yidden were snatched from us at shul in Har Nof in 2014, no non orthodox Jew asked what denomiation they were from, or implied that they didnt relate to the venue as a house of worship because it had a mechitza. They cried with us.
This total war has accomplished very little in the last thirty years. I have never heard of a conservative Jew returning to Torah observance because of orthodox rejection. I have never heard of or seen orthodox Jews drawn closer to spiritual elevation because they strove to bash and discredit reform. In fact, the opposite has been noted.
The chief rabbis are entitled to make mistakes. But more importantly, they are obligated to represent the Jewish people to the world. By choosing to put a family argument, a disagreement of hashkafa on display at a time when fellow Jews are being slaughtered in their house of worship, their spiritual sanctuary, they have squandered an obligation to lead in favor of perpetuating a failed war of deligitimization.
Stuart, I am seeing your comment after YWN approved all the new comments. I appreciate your apology, means a lot to me. I humbly forgive you.
https://forward.com/life/faith/413035/israel-chief-rabbi-didnt-dismiss-conservative-synagogues-stop-twisting/?fbclid=IwAR2YYxwu1H7HtfEM-Sdj579Ur1Yc0R05164OqC-WRKOehC0R0pI06yZaBAQ
No one is criticising any individuals.
It’s the movement.
Anyone who feels it’s wrong to do so, even in these circumstances, does not feel the pain of the One Above.
HIS Project is being slaughtered EVERY Shabbat.
Only the Shomrei Shabbat care.
Let’s strengthen our keeping it, כהלכה.
There could be no better way to mourn the deaths of these poor victims and help benefit them where they now are.
searchin345, RMF ztl was not the only gadol; many others referred to conservative rabbis respectfully. in any case RMF did not have the more frequent contact that gedolim living outside the LES had. and even RMF called them rabbis.
TGIShabbos:
I apologised above for saying something that could appear insulting. Did you see it? I don’t know why you keep going on and on about this.
You are indeed knowledgeable and intelligent have made valid points, which is great. Your temper though is obvious and not good, especially for you. You are slow to forgive.
I don’t know where you get the idea that I am a conservative jew. I am not consumed with what other people think of me, though.
As for asking me to leave the forum: This forum is owned by a private company and is moderated. If you want me kicked out, take it up with the moderators.
As for loving jews irrespective of their take on Judaism, including you, yes i do.
I won’t be responding to your comments anymore. You have a temper and it is frankly too draining.
TGIShabbos:
Thank you
Everyone else: sorry you had to witness the misunderstanding between me and TGI.
First of the funerals today. Though the kedoshim didn’t respect all of orthodox rabbinic judaism, nobody has the right to trivialize them, especially at a time like this. Who are we to judge? What do we know of their nisyonos? Marginalizing others is a manifestation of gaavah. Think about it.
As for the chief rabbis of Israel, the previous ashkenazi chief rabbi is a crook and is in prison. Don’t judge a man by his title.
If you truly believe the words of the Torah, given at Mt Sinai to Moshe, were the words of HaShem who among Jews or anyone can alter or delete those words. The words are Holy, unchangeable and not subject to human revision.
A goy,
Gerry Mullen
Suggest all Jews do MTT, MD and MC.
listen philosopher is a shul a shul if ” orthodox jews” are involved with medicaid fraud of course i is otherwise there would not be a shul left in lakewood
Didn’t read most of the comments: no names.
PM Netanyahu is no leader. His Ego is too large.
Is he expert, and moral enough to know what a synogogue is, or isn’t?
I shall quote the words which I heard directly from the Godol haDor in person:- Rav Meir Kahane HY’D was killed “because he is a Jew”, & for this reason alone, he is heading straight to Gan Eden. These 11 fellows HY’D also were killed “because they are Jews”, and for this reason alone, based on what I heard directly from HoRav Avigdor Miller ZTKLLH’H, they are heading straight to Gan Eden.
147,
Oh the irony of what you are saying based on whom you are quoting
doubtful he of all people would say that over here
The former indeed was killed because he was unabashed Jew putting aside his militant nationalist predilections was a strong promoter of Judaism And it’s mores
Kahane was designated by the U.S. government as a domestic terrorist in relation to bombing attempts at U.N. offices etc.. If he was fast-tracked to Gan Eden, who knows who else one might encounter.
This Should be a NON Issue, as Isreali
government officials Only have a say when it comes to the country not Judaism. Netanyahu is the leader of Israel he is not the leader or the representative of the Jewish people the Torah or Halacha.
Therefore our religious leaders should not take issue with his opinion or definition concerning Jews as he is not my rabbi or a Jewish leader the leader of the state of Israel.
Regardless on your personal views of him the cabinet members or other government officials it does not matter all the definition.
If definition may or may not I’ve been minutes has there ever been a community has interpreted and regardless it should not matter they should not take offense whether or not you will like him or not.
If a Layman or a religious person has an issue or question as to his use of the word synagogue then his obligation would be to speak to his rabbi for their opinion which is fine but not disseminate the reasons why he use the word synagogue as opposed to congregation.
Please note that I am not either agreeing or vilifying with his words I’m just indicating that as jews or Israelis what words he used as a definition should not be taken as a offense one way or another.
Many people have their own definition of what a Jew is or what Halachaic Jew is.
I personally go with the more stricter View and I am not offended by his definition since he is not qualified to make that type of a decision and he’s intention has nothing to do with making a that definition one way or another.
In the end we are all Jews and should Always, without Exception Stand UP and be United in Defense of fellow Jews when the are attacked or Victomised for the Second Reason of being JEW. Weather the Jew be Religious Conservative or Non Observant to the Extreme. We Have to be ONE Voice. On the Eyes of the Outside World (Meaning To the Non Jews). Keep Our internal Differences to ourselves. Remember. The Natzi Did not Care if you were Religious or Not. Or even if you Converted or Not, they ises OUR own definition as to who was a Jew and therefore treated the same as all.Jews were to them.
Incredible the way people speak about Rabbis on this website. SHUT YOUR MOUTH! You don’t come up to there toes in there knowledge of Torah. So keep your trap shut!
Ike Hazan, I believe the core of the discussion does not surround Netanyahu, but rather the Chief Rabbis, the article notwithstanding. To your point, I don’t think any readers attribute any authority to Netenyahu’s halachic opinions.
It has been called a synagogue for decades, and nobody discussed it. The chidush, I believe, is the Chief rabbis’ quotes, highlighted by Netenyahu’s apparent rebuke.
No Rabbi or anyone else is saying if the victims are or are not going to Gan Eden. We are not Hashem and we don’t make cheshbonos. Neither do we know if they were Jews or not, I’m assuming thay most of the victims are Jews because of their age, mostly the younger generation is intermarried and have non-Jewish children.
Nobody is diminishing the tragedy of innocent lives lost, whether they were Jewish or not.
BUT just because they were killed because the murderer wanted to kill Jews and just because the building was called a “synogogue” does not make the victims Jewish nor the institution a synogogue. This is the terrible results of Reform and Conservative movements which have corrupted the clear understanding of what Jews are and Judaism is.
chareidi amiti, I just noticed your comment. Every word resonated with me. Imho you are living up to”chareid amiti”. The essence of yiddishkeit is conveyed in your post.
Bears reading again from time to time.
Why are we still in golus? This thread shows us the reason why. Eleven Jews were slaughtered simply because they were Jews, and we have this kind of discussion?
For those who question the “Jewishness” of these Jews, they were all older, from a generation in which there was little intermarriage, and those who intermarried didn’t teach their children to go to shul. And how can you guarantee that your mother’s mother’s mother’s…..were all Jews? It’s the same as the controversy about which kohanim are kosher. The only people who know for sure they are Jews are kosher converts. The rest of us rely on tradition – hopefully correct.
As an aspect of chasdei HaShem even in this horrible event, the services for children hadn’t started yet. Another hour and the building would have been filled with children.
Terminology? As I learned it, in the US a temple is Reform, a synagogue is Conservative, and a shul is Orthodox.
This thread makes me want to cry – literally. Walt Kelly had his editorial-cartoon character named Pogo say, “We have met the enemy and he is us.” Some of the above reactions to this tragedy prove it.
arib, kindly use periods when writing comments.
Now, you are making sweeping assumptions. You have no proof of others financial situations, certainly not all people on Medicaid living in Lakewood and even more so, all people davening in shuls in Lakewood.
The fact that many people do have to fudge a little is due to the government’s gazillion regulations that force insurance rates to be so high so that many people can’t afford it even if the goverment decided that they can. And these people certainly can’t pay for medical care out of pocket. That’s why many people need to fudge the numbers a bit to aquire medicaid. There’s a lot the government can do to lower insurance rates but they ignore all of it and continue to keep millions of people in a rut. I will not go into what the government can do so that insurance and medical care can be affordable, but one thing I can say, if it continues this way, more and more people will have to rely on Medicaid.
Regardless of what I wrote above, you have no excuse for sweeping accusations without any proof whatsover. Even if you know of 2 or 3 individual cases, it doesn’t mean the entire Lakewood community are frauds.
Yesodyosef613:
Rabbis are human. Their knowledge does not make them superhuman. We are mandated to choose which rabbis to follow.
oh philosopher so the shul in pittsburgh is not a shul because they dont keep all the mitzvot but in lakewood if you rationalize theft from the government and steal a little then it is a shul . i have a good name for your next shul congregation moreh heter
Arib, they used to joke of a shteebel –that shall remain nameless — in my neighborhood growing up in Montreal, that more trades were made bein gavra l’gavra on shabbos than at the stock exchange during the week
No one asked the Chief Rabbi in Israel if the place of worship could be publicized as a synagogue. We all have to think before we speak. When 11 people were killed, just because they were Jews, no one has the right to judge their legitimacy.
Midwest2:
Tree of Life calls refers to itself as a synagogue on its website. Older members refer to it as a shul.
Anyhow, shul is a German word, and I don’t see the great honour in being called a shul.
Chazal did not refer to “shul”.
One thing is for certain. The yetzer hara got us to argue.
arib, yes condoning gayism, gender “conversion, triefos, Shabbos desecration, marriage with non-Jews , etc. as congregations or entire movements is WORSE than a SOME misppallelim fudging numbers trying to get by.
And are you so naive to think that ALL Reform and Conservative people are perfect regarding this matter?! This is a side issue and has nothing to do with the discussion on this thread.
StuartW
Which Rabbis do you follow