IDF Personnel Directorate Chief Major-General Elazar Stern, a Shomer Shabbos (Sabbath-Observant) Jew, has come out once again against females seeking a deferment from military service due to their religious convictions.
In an address to a business forum on Monday, the senior commander stated 85% of positions in the military can be filled by male and female personnel alike, rejecting the growing number of people not serving as a result of their religious beliefs.
Stern called on the business community to give preferential status to IDF veterans when hiring.
According to Stern, military statisticians’ reports one-third of eligible females do not serve, citing religious beliefs as the reason. Stern maintains the actual number of religious women is lower, stating many are getting on the bandwagon, using Shabbos observance as an excuse.
Since assuming his most senior post, Stern has been at the forefront towards dismantling hesder yeshivas around Israel, insisting the soldiers who enjoy a Shomer Shabbos framework must be integrated into regular units, without the special accommodations they have enjoyed over tens of years – accommodations which permit them to serve in combat units while maintaining a frum lifestyle.
(Yechiel Spira – YWN Israel)
Join the official YWN WhatsApp status
27 Responses
He should be embarrased to be photographed with his Kippa on.
It is no secret what they use the girls for in the army and the Chazon Ish said back then that going to the army was a yehoreg ve-al yaavor for the girls.
Editor: I am certain that Stern would disagree with your implication that only “accommodations which permit them to serve in combat units while maintaining a frum lifestyle.”
You might want to re write that if you do not want to look like an letter to the editor. “accommodations which many believe permit the soliders to serve in combat units while maintaining a frum lifestyle.” would work just fine, because that would exclude Stern.
This is unfortunately the results of arrogance that comes from a lack of Torah knowledge. Perhaps if he would meet with the gedolim they would help him see things differently. The Chazon Ish put his life on the line to prevent exactly what he’s trying to do. I pity what will happen to him (klapei Shamiyim) if he doesn’t changes his ways.
I would not dignify this rasha as ”Shomer” anything.
I don’t understand what everyone is going crazy about. He never said religious women should serve. He said that he thinks the amount of religious women is lower than actually claimed. Meaning, some non-religious women are claiming religion as a deferment. That bothers me too.
this guy is playing with fire if this is true. his end will not be pleasant..
to no 5. i guess you are a victim of the ever elusive israeli pr machine which excels in hitting on religious jews. since when does someone taking over a country that is set aside by g-d exclusively for torah observance have the right to bulldog their way to management, incite the non-jewish public and then claim they are defending you. we didnt need the zionist arrogance to live in exile we had it just as well before..if they claim to be the representative to the jewish people let them find out what that means and them be responsible sheperds, but if they go to fraudulent sources and then claim everyone must see it their way, if thats not arrogence i dont know what is…
Dear nos. 5 and 6:
The Chazon Ish, ZT”L, stated that being drafted into the army is a matter of “Gilui Arayos,” which is one of the three things for which a Jew must give his life if required.
You need only review the countless stories of IDF army officers taking advantage of the girls under their command to see how tragically prescient the Chazon Ish was.
Even the Army Chief of Staff, Yitzchak Mordecahi, was convicted of such an evil deed. Most recently, Chaim Ramon, Olmert’s Deputy Prime Minister was convicted of an immoral act in office. The whole culture of the IDF is rife with immorality, from top to bottom.
The notion of a religious test for girls is a tragic joke. The MiHu YeHuDi” issue has been debated by the best scholars of our time, and they have not been able to arrive at a consensus.
If Stern has his way, only a girl from the Neteurei Karta will be exempt from military sevice.
No girl should be forced to submit herself to the army discipline of a man, anywhere, anytime–It’s just plain common sense!
to no.5, why do we want only C and D students protecting us? I’d prefer the smartest soldiers available.
to no.8,
“since when does someone taking over a country that is set aside by g-d exclusively for torah observance have the right to bulldog their way to management”
u show no hakoras hatov. why is it ok for frum jews to take money for yeshivas, use the public roads, libraries, etc. but not contribute back to the society they live in? why is it okay for other jewish boys and girls to die protecting the frum? are their loves worth any less?
To YWN editor and commenter #4: It is indeed terrible that the issue of giyus bonos is being raised once again. We know that this was considered yehareg ve’al ya’vor by gedolai oylam of stature no less than the Chazon Ish, the Tchebiner Rov, and the Brisker Rov zy’a. But not everyone has been raised in our circles. Some may not be aware of the psak that was made by these gedolim. Even if they are aware, I believe that it is possible for someone to be a shomer shabbos, yet in a sense to be a tinuk shenishba regarding the true understanding of the greatness of our gedolim and our chiyuv to be mevatel ourselves to their da’as torah. Every yid has a chiyuv to be dan his chaver likaf zechus. I respectfully question whether in the absence of clearer knowledge, it was appropriate to label Mr. Stern a “rasha” and to publish this comment for public consumption. The issue could have been debated and the point made without this label. I am not a talmud chochom, but I wonder whether there may be a chiyuv to ask mechilla for this.
Lets all not forget that in biblical times only those who were free from sin went out to war. Perhaps there is a place for the Frum in the army in separate units.
Perhaps there is a place for Frum women to help the country by working in offices where there are only women.
Perhaps.
In America, those who choose to serve their country do so out of a sense of purpose and are given incentives to do so.
Israel, too, should not require its citizens to serve in its armed forces, particulary when the Zionists’ kids escape the Zionist hell to France and intermarry and when there are other ways of contributing to society besides serving in an army with pritzus.
Israel has to enforce a mandatory draft because, most likely, most Zionists are already disillusioned with the pathetic and grand failure that is Zionism, and the IDF would end up with only a few hardcore leftists and a small number of very “nationalist-religious” Jews. Of course, the real original reason for the mandatory draft is to turn impressionable young Jews into good card-carrying anti-Jewish Zionists.
And I fully agree with DeepThinker.
to no.9,
“No girl should be forced to submit herself to the army discipline of a man, anywhere, anytime–It’s just plain common sense!”
Why cant they do other jobs like working in an office, intelligence, or hospital? Why is it so tragic for a woman to contribute?
REB ELIMELECH (NO. 15):
The main point is DISCIPLINE–involuntary compulsory service, with punishment if you don’t obey. It doesn’t matter what the job is, for the purpose of the Chazon Ish’s Psak halaCha.
A girl in such a subservient position is at risk–period!
Remember, Chaim Ramon (Olmert’s Deputy Prime Minister) assaulted the girl in his office at the Justice Ministry.
no 16,
What are you saying? Why is it okay for women to work for a male boss in a business office somewhere, but not if its for a government office or hospital?
I understand that there’s a risk of the boss assaulting his female employee, but that risk is everywhere – not just in govmt related jobs. If thats the reason, then no woman should be allowed to work for any male ANYWHERE.
Is sherut leumi a better option, perhaps the only option for truly frum young women? Of course. BUT How many daugters of charedi communities are even doing this much in perfectly acceptable environments to fulfill their obligation to the state they live in? How many daughters of charedi commuities are taking the opportunity to have a positive hashpo’oh on children without the benefit of their upbringing? I know the chardal and dati leumi girls re doing this in shlichut at frum schools around the world, in work wit new immigrants – – so much so that a small number of chiloni extremists at the other end of the spectrum are complaiing of their influence on children to be yirei shomayim. Why aren’t charedi communities standing up and acting on their achrayus to am Yisroel?
And Raboisai, please do not write under the illusion that our own streets are immune from the dangers you write about. Sure, there’s less of it, perhaps much less. But one reason you and I hear about it less is the sha shtill mentality we have ingrained in ourselves, the “don’t say or do anything to embarass the community even if someone in a position of authority (they don’t only exist in the army, you know)is abusing his power with you”. the “nobody will believe you if you make such an accusation”. I for one believe that the Chazon Ish might be more horrified by the quiet permission by silence that goes on in our communities than by the presence of a few strong willed frum young women in combat units.
And by the way, as someone pointed out earlier, Stern wasn’t talking about the frum girls, he was talking about the non-frum who dishonestly pose as frum to escape military service. There’s a term for setting up an argument that hasn’t been made and then getting smug satisfaction from ripping it down. It’s called a “straw man”, and some of the posters here just created one and burned it down. Not a terribly mature method of discussion.
no 18,
“Not a terribly mature method of discussion.”
The commenters here dont care much for mature or logical discussion.
To #5 (lesschumras) – My dear friend, I advise you to spend less time on the web and more time in the Beis Medrash. Anyone who studies the Rambam (I don’t mean those that just read though it like a novel) will clearly see that the Rambam compares Bnei Torah (and I don’t mean the miyut of guys that are taking advantage of the system, but rather the majority that are clearly placing all the effort to become Talmidei Chochomim) to Shevet Levi.
Please explain to me why ALL of Shevet Levi was exempt from the army, not just the brainy ones. I assume your not foolish enough to state that that is because they were needed in the Beis Hamikdash when is it so obvious all over shas that a lack of manpower in the Beis Hamikdash was clearly not an issue (see Mesachta Sukkah).
Also, here is a quote you can view on the web it you can’t make it to a Beis Medrash.
Exemption
Already in the Torah, there is indication that not all the Jews participated actively in the actual fighting:
Ach et shevet Levi lo tifkod v’et rosham lo tisa
But the tribe of Levi you shall not count [in the military census], nor number their heads.28
The entire tribe of Levi was excluded from active warfare, and therefore there was no need to include them in the military census. Rambam rules that the tribe of Levi did not inherit a portion of the land, “because they were separated for one task – to serve [in the Temple] and to teach His righteous ways… therefore they were separated from the ways of the world, and they do not wage war as do the other Israelites.”
But then Rambam adds,
V’lo shevet Levi bilvad, ela kol ish v’ish mikol baei haolam asher nadva rucho oto v’hevino midaato.
Not only the tribe of Levi, but any individual whose spirit moves him to… separate himself to stand before G-d and to serve him, to know Him.. and he removes from his neck the yoke of considerations which most people see, behold this person becomes most holy.
Jewish thinking recognizes and respect those individuals who reject the pursuit of material goods as their goal and dedicate themselves instead to a higher ideal. Such a person should not be called up even for defense of the country. The source for this practice long predates the Rambam: the Gemara (Nedarim 32a) criticizes Avraham Avinu for having roused the scholars in his entourage and pressed them into joining his troop which gave chase against the four kings who had raided the land. Similarly, the Gemara in Sotah 10a concludes that King Asa was punished by heaven for conscripting Torah scholars into his army.”
IT PAYS TO LEARN!!!!! 🙂
Blue Pink – I recommend you reread the article. He clearly states,
“… has come out once again against females seeking a deferment from military service due to their religious convictions.”
and
“…the senior commander stated 85% of positions in the military can be filled by male and female personnel alike, rejecting the growing number of people not serving as a result of their religious beliefs.”
Both statements show a clear rejection of Daas Torah. You’re not placing to heart that the Gedolim (lead by the Chazon Ish) stated that a girl is required by Hashem to give up her life rather than serve in the army! Do you really think they were exaggerating when they said that?! IF so, you clearly do not know history!
Also, just to point out (and I don’t know if this still applies), in the 1980’s the highest abortion rate in the WORLD was the Israeli army! Doesn’t that tell you something? Doesn’t that bother you? I certainly hope so!
This army may predominantly consist of Jews, but it surely is NOT a Jewish army (I.E. one based on Torah values)!
The Chazon Ish said it is assur for any women to serve in the army (not that just ‘frum’ women could not serve.)
yichusdik – It would be worthy of you to let go of your blind views and do research. If you don’t like the answers given, then so be it, but don’t try to second guess. Your question is not new (Ein Davar Chadash Tachas Hashemesh) and you should be able to find the answer to your question on the web.
In truth the answer is quite simple and straight forward and I could tell you, but I want you to place in some effort, so I leave it up to you to research the web.
Good luck! 🙂
To softwords, with brotherly affection,
You tell me I can find answers to my questions on the web – a web which the same people in positions of power have often put beyond the pale of proper communal use – so in your opinion second-hand apologists for inconsistent communal standards posting furtive responses on a “forbidden” medium is what I should research?
No, thank you. I prefer my research to be real. and in asking the questions I have asked here face to face with real people, I have, unfortunately, not only not heard a response “that I want to hear”, I have heard silence, denial in the face of evidence, and a rejection of achrayus ish lereyeyhu. regarding my first point about utilizing opportunities to have a hashpo’oh on those not blessed to have grown up in our frum cocoon, there simply is no coherent “answer” to a question of why responsible yidden shirk their responsibility to Am Yisroel. Your parents didn’t make sacrifices to give you a solid education so that you could hoard it like a pirate in his cave. You and I have a responsibility to all of Am yisroel, and that includes utilizing opportunities like sherut leumi to exemplify Torah Judaism to them.
And My dear Joseph, I’d like to hear that I am wrong, and please correct me if I am, but does your concern for the holiness of chiloni army age women extend to inviting them to a shiur, or to your family’s home for a shabbos meal? To polite treatment of respect and honour as bnos Rivka v’Rochel? To allowing your daughters to exemplify Torah values to them in some kind of interaction?
If the answer is yes, boruch hashem, Your application of the Chazon Ish’s words are a fitting rebuke for me, which I welcome. But if not, I wonder at your concern for their adherence to the Chazon Ish’s psak if you can’t be bothered to reach out to them in a useful, meaningful way.
Pashuteh Yid,
At least for question 2, If I am not mistaken, some of the Rishonim consider a subcategory of a milchemes Mitzvah, more like a milchemes chovah, that is essentially a defensive or preemptive war, but not one for purely political reasons, which would be a milchemes reshus. I don’t have the sforim in front of me, but there is a discussion in Yad Chazokoh about this.
To lesschumras and Pashuteh Yid: First, I’d like to commend Pashuteh Yid for looking up the sources instead of just blabbing off his mouth like most do. If we would all do the research FIRST there would probably be more interesting discussions hear.
lesschumras – You bring out a good point that I’m not sure that even you realize. The point is that we are talking about a Non-Torah Jewish government here and that complicates things. Believe me, if we were talking about a Torah based government, there would be no point in discussion. The halachah is clear cut.
The issue at hand is how to deal with the present government that has power over our nation. Chazal state, “with the wicked be cunning”. The question becomes how we deal with this wicked government. (Don’t be fooled into thinking otherwise. This government acts like Esav.) We must deal with them like Yaakov. Sometimes that means holding our ground and sometimes that means making concession. When yes and when no we HAVE to leave up to our Chochumim to decide. The last time we fools though we knew better we almost got wiped out by a rasha named Haman.
For both of you – As far as during war time it is well known and clearly stated, “those that believe that their Torah learning and Tefillah are saving Klal Yisroel go learn and daven. Those that don’t go out and help fight.” (they say this in the name of the Rosh Yeshiva of the Mir during one of the wars, I think the 6 day war.)
When it is not war time, who told you that everybody has an obligation to be a soldier? Who told you that being a soldier is the greatest of all mitzvos in the Torah?
Yes, we need an army, but you do not have to have the ENTIRE nation enlist in order to have a functioning army. Most countries do not have mandatory service. The most powerful army in the world (USA) doesn’t have mandatory service. Even though our security situation is different it still doesn’t have to require everybody to join. We could draw lotteries on who needs to join. (BTW – just trivia info. In 1995 the Israeli government had stated that 22,000 men had exemptions due to learning in Yeshivas. That’s 22,000 all inclusive, not new deferments. In other words, the WHOLE argument about Religious Exemptions was over 22,000 men. With a population of nearly 5 million people, 22,000 people is not a whole lot.)
Yes, saving a life is a great mitzva, but it is not the greatest mitzva in the Torah. There are 3 mitzvas that you must give up your life not to transgress. How do you understand, “ViTalmud Torah Keneged KULAM”? How do you understand, “Derech Eretz KUDMA L’Torah”? “KUDMA”, not “GADOL” M’Torah!
Yes, we need to do more for others! We definitely need to strengthen ourselves in ALL those areas that you mentioned. But then again, let’s not be TOO hard on ourselves. If we only see our Chisronot and not our Mi’lot then we are endangering ourselves to fall prey to the chet ha’miraglim, “…we were like grasshoppers to them” (see the miforshim)
This topic is FAR beyond the scope of this website. I encourage you both to try to see and HEAR the other side before casting judgment on us that disagree with you. There are plenty of sources and Rebbeim out there where you can glean an understanding of the other side of the coin. I encourage you to use them.
B’Hatzlacha
yichusdik – Unlike Pashuteh Yid and lesschumras, your arguments are baseless. You are mixing apple and oranges. Does it make a difference where you find the information? If the facts are against you, then the facts are against you regardless of where you find the facts.
The fact is that your question was brought to the Chazon Ish and he gave an answer why still the answer is “NO”. I personally had your question years ago and when I heard the Chazon Ish’s answer I had to admit that he was right. It was THAT clear, THAT simple.
So this time I will advise you to go to a Beis Medrash or to a Gadol (If you live here in Israel ask his nephew Rav Chaim Kanievsky, shlita). It seems from your comment that you’ve gone to simple people. If you feel that you have an intelligent question, why would you seek an intelligent answer anywhere else than by another intelligent person? This puzzles me! 🙁
Pashuteh Yid – I own a personal picture of a soldier putting on tefillin next to his tank. Rather good shot for an amateur photographer, I must say. Although it was nice to see and aroused me to take the shot, however, it was the mere fact that despite being in the army nonetheless he made sure to lain tefillin that aroused me to take the shot.
Do you understand what I mean?
Ask any frum yid who’s been in the army and you’ll find out that it is not the healthiest environment for a Torah yid. I even had a fry soldier once tell me not to join. When I asked why, he told me that the immorality in the army was HORRIBLE! To be honest, I was quite surprised to hear that from a non-frum yid.
If a Jew is in the army and he nontheless strengthens himself to fulfill the mitzvas to the tee then of course we should praise him, but to idolize that type of life style?!
David HaMelech was one of the greatest Tzaddik we ever had. Nonetheless, Hashem didn’t allow the Beis Hamikdash to be completed in his life time due to the bloodshed on his hands. And you want to idolize this life style?!?! What’s wrong with you?
Sometimes we MUST kill, but let’s not act like the goyim and crown the warrior instead of the scholar!
Hashem Yiracham Alanu!
Pashuteh Yid – You bring out some good points. First of all the Chazon Ish was asked why he didn’t come out as strongly about men going into the army as he did for the woman and he gave a clear difference between the two. So you’re right that there are two discussions here that need clarification.
AS far as your question about hesder and nachal chareidi, if you read this article clearly you will see that this General wants to abolish them. So even if they are worthy options to consider the point is mute if this misguided Jew gets his way. For those frum Jews that believe it is our religious duty to join the army they MUST fight tooth and nail against this General’s plan. I believe that those Gedolim that backed the hesder concept would today state openly (if they were still alive) that “if the hesder was disbanded, then we will refuse to send our talmidim to the army all together!”.
As far as the basic training I personally agree with you, but have not consulted chachomim on this. I do see, however, a concern that “give a nickel they’ll want a dime”. I could see the government first saying, “just to basic training so as to be prepared for war” and then later on forcing full time enlistment. Sort of like Pharoh originally hiring the Jews to do the labor and then tricking them into slavery. Unfortunately, this government is a wicked one and I could see them doing such a thing. So in theory, even though you are right (in my opinion), nonetheless in practice we may not be. 🙁
As far as your comments in #32, I hear them and it may be true by some people, but the point in question is whether the anti-zionist view has any bases. It is hard to determine this when you are not here to see things first hand. Regrettably, there is great evidence to support anti-zionistic views (except for Neturei Kartas (Nutty Cutters) who’s extreme views and Actions repulse most of us frum Jews). Perhaps it is them that you are refering to. 😉
I welcome you to come here for a year or two or three, etc. 🙂 You can come learn with us TRUE Zionist (the ones that sacrifice all the comforts of USA to live a life of Kedusha in Hashem’s holy land)
As far as the Medina is concerned, hopefully Mashiach will come soon and things will quickly get straighten out, B’EH.