31 Responses

1. Sounds about right

2. As has been stated many times in these YWN comments… make the IDF Chareidi friendly and you wont need, for instance, the extra prison space you may otherwise need.

3. He’s an optimist. Some will go in the army in a manner similar to what inspired “Good Soldier Švejk” (a classic of literature), some might actively go in the army and tend to sabotage things from within. Some might join Neturei Karta (whose now slogan will be “I told you so”).
   Some will seek protection overseas as refugees from persecution. People will compare Netanyahu to Czar Nicholas I (for using conscription to fight frum Jews).

   Israel will lose the propaganda claim of being a necessary homeland for Jews, since the most Jewish of Israelis will be asking for refuge elsewhere. The army will be undermined from within by the large number of hostile soldiers.

   If they go through with the plan to conscript yeshiva students, I’ld suggest anyone who is truely committed to staying in Eretz Yisrael should start learning Arabic.

   On the other hand, the path of least resistance is to switch to a professional army, as most countries have done, in which they will have a booming economy since many Hareidi Baal ha-Bassim who are listed as learning full time will switch to working in the “official” economy (as opposed to the “informal sector”), not to mention that professional armies are probably better given changes in how wars are fought.

4. Here is a Torah based Chareidi positon, based on what was held by ALL true Gedolim before the holocaust and Many of them afterwards (the one’s who insisted that compermising is not worth it in the long run).
   Find a way to disassemble the State. Get the International powers involved (U.S.,Russia, England and others who may have interest in this) Make sure to reach a safe agreement to avoid all bloodshed.
   Make sure to make it clear to the Arabs that we have no interest Political power. Thousands of Jews are living safely (B’chasdei Hashem) in Iran.
   May we be zocheh to the true Geula with Eliyohu Hanovi and Moshiach Tzidkeinu.
   Although many, many of you absolutely hate this, It’s time to face the reality and consider these ‘crazy ideas’.

5. “Fill the jails”- hardly. You’ll have Chillul Shabbos Hafganas where everyone has guns, and it can get ugly if even by accident. The idea behind EVERYONE serving in the Army is as absurd as saying every Israeli should become an MK. Some people are built for it some aren’t. Welcome to the new world where equality and justice for all can have negative affects aswell.

6. It’s alarming that twisted and outright dangerous ideas like that presented by Old Faassioned Jew are allowed a public platform here on YWN. Calling for the dismantling of the state of Israel and thusly putting the lives of millions of yidden at risk, along synagogues and yeshivot etc. Disgusting.

   Serving in the IDF is pikuach nefesh and the frum community should be the FIRST to be jumping to perform this mitzvah, not the last.

7. Unfortunately Rivlin, like other secular politicians has not a clue about what spiritual contribution the chareidim provide for the State, whether they recognize the State or not. I think he probably hasn’t any idea what a spiritual contribution is.

8. The US abolished the draft in March, 1973, and transitioned to an all volunteer army. “Progressive” judges gave first time criminals of military service age the option of one year in jail or three years in the army. It was a disaster, to put it mildly. Vietnam was over, for all practical purposes. The crime and general criminal mayhem on bases was staggering. It took several decades for our all volunteer army to become the truly professional entity it is today. None of the top brass in the Pentagon advocates a return to forced conscription, and for good reasons.

9. If serving in the army was a matter of pikuach nefesh, why don’t the hiloni zionists structure the army so that Hareidim can serve without discrimination, even if that means the hilonim will have to give up their disgusting (from our perspective) hiloniyus [which can’t be discussed in detail on YWN]. Would it really hurt them to have strictly kosher food? Would it kill them to have free time in the morning while the Yidden daven? Would it really kill the female soldiers to wear modest uniforms (at least compatible to what American female military wear)? Could they even survive without having female entertainers?

   The IDF attitude towards Torah is proof that there is no issue of pikuach nefesh.

10. #6 We can agree with Old Fassioned Jew or disagree with him, but we may as well deal with some of the issues that are raised.
    We just read this morning that an Israeli army official warned that Hizbulla’s threat in the North has gotten much stronger and they have missles that can reach more deaply into Israel. We also read about what is going on in Eygipt the right wing Islamist party which seems to be getting stronger there and the Sinai being an arsenal for many arms for the Hamas. The official from the Israeli army assures us that in the next attack the ENTIRE state of Israel will be under attack of missiles.
    We are also watching how on the Iranian front things are continually proceeding in a very bad direction, and no one seems to be able or to want hard enough to realy stop them.
    We see how in Israeli politics the entire country seems to be obsessed with getting the Chareidim into the army and in the army religious soldiers are forced to hear women singing they are forced to go visit a church in honor of Yom Yerushalayim. We see how Israeli Army official are constantly persuing political positions and politicians are constantly pursuing their own personal interests of honor and prestige.
    Is the current situation not already “outright dangerous”? Are the lives of Millions of us not already at risk? Is the carelessness for Jewish lives displayed many times by the Israeli politicians through their careless political maneuvering and ‘peace agreements’ not already disgusting?
    Can we really be sure that what we are used to as being the guarentees of our survival will still proove themselves as such?
    At least on thing for sure dear Breslever, I hope we can all agree upon, should we not hold on tight to our ancient Emuna? Is anything else guarenteed?

11. Hmm..good idea to “abandon the passive stance regarding the fate of the country.” So let us now take the initiative by decrying the actions of these despotic nationalistic bureaucrats who would wish atheism be our fate. Let us actively oppose them and remind ourselves that even Communism in all it’s supposed glory in the end collapsed into a heap of dust.

12. IDF service is certainly pikuach nefesh — but no more than learning Torah. Dovid Hamelech didn’t go fight; he sat at home and learnt, so that Yoav could win his battles. Yoav didn’t sit and learn; he went out and fought, so that Dovid could learn. Each depended on the other.

13. #7, Rivlin is far from secular, and certainly has more than a clue about what the Torah does for the nation’s security. He’s on our side here.

14. Milhouse… Milhouse…
    Your’e pictures of reality would be quite ammusing if it were not for the fact that the issues we are dealing with here are quite serious.
    Do we live in the time of Yoav and Dovid Hamelech? Do we have that kind of Da’as Torah leading us in our national decisions? Yoav the Sar Tzava was himself also a very learned man. And, Dovid Hamelech himself also fought many wars.
    Is Rivlin for you Dovid Hamelech? Or, mabey just Yoav?
    The Pikuach Nefesh situation is indeed surrounding us from all sides getting closer as the days go by. Does the IDF really serve as a solution to this impending Pikuach Nefesh? Do you really beleive what you are saying?

15. Israel should learn from America and end the draft.

16. #14, We may not have leaders like David Hamelech or even Yoav, but we are still in a situation where enemies are threatening us, so the Torah says we must take up arms and defend ourselves, even on Shabbos, let alone on weekdays. That is a halacha in Shulchan Aruch, therefore it applies today as much as ever. And therefore the gemara about David and Yoav also applies; if we have fighters we must also have learners to protect them. Rivlin I see as a Yoav; he appreciates Torah and is trying to preserve Yavneh Vachachomeho.

17. Milhouse, you are so wrong! Dovid HaMelech did go to the army. It is mefurash in a number of places in divrei Chazal.

18. Milhouse,
    Beis Yoseif Orach Chaim 249 says the Jewish people are not to go in Wars at this time. The shulchan Oruch on 229 is talking about a case when you are in a city and your obligated by your state to protect it (Mishna Brurah), but not that the Jewish people are aloud to follow people or a movement that is capturing the land on behalf of the Jewish people and getting the Jewish People into political Wars and enciting our enemies against us.
    There’s got to be a way to get out of this trap. Stop fanticizing about the Zionists that they are the replacement of Dovid or Yoav.

19. Correction: the Shulchon Oruch I mentioned was 329 in Orach Chaim.

20. mdd, the gemoro says otherwise.

21. אמר רבי אבא בר כהנא אילמלא דוד לא עשה יואב מלחמה ואילמלא יואב לא עסק דוד בתורה דכתיב ויהי דוד עושה משפט וצדקה לכל עמו ויואב בן צרויה על הצבא מה טעם דוד עשה משפט וצדקה לכל עמו משום דיואב על הצבא ומה טעם יואב על הצבא משום דדוד עושה משפט וצדקה לכל עמו

22. Beis Yoseif Orach Chaim 249 says the Jewish people are not to go in Wars at this time.

    Liar. (I assume you meant 329) He says the exact opposite, that nowadays we must fight even if it’s על עסקי ממון and not עיר הסמוכה לספר.

    The shulchan Oruch on 229 is talking about a case when you are in a city and your obligated by your state to protect it (Mishna Brurah),

    Liar, the MB says no such thing. The Shulchon Oruch specifically says עיירות ישראל, not cities of other nations. The MB explains that עיר הסמוכה לספר means a city that is on the border between a Jewish-inhabited area and a non-Jewish one. This isn’t a chidush of the Shulchon Oruch, it’s a direct quote from the gemoroh, which is talking about Jewish cities in Nehardea.

    Then the MB adds a new thing, not an explanation of the Shulchon Oruch — that even in a situation where according to the gemoro and the Shulchon Oruch we must not fight on Shabbos, nevertheless nowadays we must fight them for fear of government reprisals if we don’t, and because of dina demalchusa dina. This is not the halacha anyone is discussing here, and indeed it’s probably not really a halacha at all, but only put in for the censor’s benefit. (The bit about dina demalchusa is clearly only for the censor’s benefit, because everyone who knows a little halacha can see that it’s a ridiculous notion. Whether the rest of that piska is also for the censor I’m not sure; he says it’s in the Agudah and the Rokeach, but doesn’t give a reference so I could look it up.)

23. Milhouse, Gemora at the end of Moed Kotan says that Dovid haMelech went to war (the omud before the last one).

24. PS: I couldn’t find it in the Agudah, but I found the Rokeach, and he doesn’t say exactly like the MB quotes him. It’s chapter 196. He certainly doesn’t mention dina demalchusa. He writes that when Worms came under attack we (the rabbonim of the city) allowed Jews to join the defense for two reasons: the attackers were יוצאין להרוג או ליהרג, so although they only wanted money it has a din of על עסקי נפשות; and because if the Jews didn’t join the defense the local goyim would kill them themselves.

    The MB is relying on this second reason, but he doesn’t say that the locals will kill us if we don’t join the defense, just that the government will be angry at us. Maybe that’s what he means, and he didn’t want to say so because of the censor, or maybe the whole thing is for the censor’s benefit and he expects us to look it up and find for ourselves when it’s mutar and when it’s asur.

    At any rate, the MB is certainly not saying, as you claim, that we may only go to war if the government forces us. If it’s עיר הסמוכה לספר then it’s a clear halocho that we must go to war, even on Shabbos. If it’s not, and the raiders are not likely to kill anyone if we don’t resist, then me`ikar hadin we may fight during the week but not on Shabbos, but the MB adds that nowadays if the government forces us we go anyway.

    In Eretz Yisroel today every attack is עיר הסמוכה לספר. That is obvious to anybody. Therefore the clear halocho that is in the gemoro and agreed on by all poskim, is that we must fight. The only question is who should physically take up arms, and who should stay behind and learn for the benefit of the fighters, or cook for them, or procure arms, or fix tanks, or make sure they get paid, etc.

25. mdd, the string דוד doesn’t appear on either side of that entire daf

26. Milhouse,
    “Liar (I assume you meant 329)…”
    You call me a liar and then you assume…
    I said BEIS YOSEF 249!!!
    He writes we do not have Din Milchemes Mitzva or Milchemes Reshus at this time.
    The Shulchan Oruch in 329 has to be understood in the context of us living in the cities we live in in Golus under other political sovereigntys [and this is exactly the situation described in the Rokeach you just quoted] and YES! if anyone comes attacking us we have the obligation of defending ourselves. This does not mean that we are aloud to follow or support a leadership that violates what is said in Beis Yosef 249 (and many other sources) and gets into wars in order to get political sovereignty while we are still in Golus.

27. Chaim Yankel, my assumption that you mistyped the siman number was reasonable, since you did it again just a bit later; but you’re still a liar, because in 249 the Beis Yosef doesn’t say anything like that either. I’m looking at it right now; it’s quite short, and there is nothing distinguishing this time from any other time.

28. Chaim Yankel, I finally found what you were talking about, and sure enough, it’s not in the Beis Yosef at all, but the Bach! And he doesn’t say what you claimed either.

    He does not say that we’re not to go to war at this time, but merely points out the obvious fact that “nowadays”, i.e. in his time, we didn’t go to war. There were no Jewish armies, and no prospect of any in the foreseeable future, so he wondered why the Tur brought down a practical halacha about war. The Rambam wrote all the halochos, whether they’re practical today or not, but the Tur only wrote those halochos that were in practise in his time, and yet here he cites a halacha about going to war and Oneg Shabbos! So the Bach explains why this halacha is still relevant.

    Nowhere, though, does the Bach say that we are not to go to war on our own. He merely observed as a practical fact that we didn’t go to war in his day, because we had no army. Now that we do have an army, and do go to war, we can answer the Bach’s question much better than he did: what wasn’t practical in 14th century Spain or 17th century Poland was and is practical in other times and places of our current golus. It was practical for the Kuzarim, it was practical for Mar Zutra, it was practical for the Jewish tribes of Arabia and the Jewish Berber tribes, and it is practical for the IDF today. That is a deliberate misrepresentation on your part, for which you ought to apologise, but I don’t expect that you will.

29. Milhouse…
    You jump to conclusions very quickly. The BEIS YOSEF DOES SPEAK ABOUT THIS look again. Yes, indeed the Ba”ch speaks about it, but the Beis Yosef does too. [mabey look at a better prints so you’ll find it…] There is a disagreement between the B”ach and the Beis Yosef as to whether the concept Milchemes Mitzva can exist at this time, Ba”ch says it exists when you are helping a non Jewish army rescue Jewish captives Beis Yosef does not seem to think that this is under the Halachik category of Milchemes Mitzvah (although it may be a good thing to do). In any case Beis Yosef holds there is no din of Milchemes Mitzvah in our time. And Ba”ch also makes clear that Jewish people as a whole are not to wage wars.
    And NO! The Beis Yosef and the Ba”ch are not “observing a practical fact” they say that this Halacha does not APPLY in our time (which is called Golus). Cf. the Ramba”m Sefer hamitzvos at the end of the 14th Shoresh (study thoroghly) where he makes very clear that Milchama and Kibush Ayaros do not APPLY when there is no Beis Hamikdash.
    In terms of the Kuzarim, as far as I know, although the king had converted and many of his citizens not everyone converted (or not even most) to Judaism and was not an officially Jewish state.

30. Chaim Yankel, I’m looking at the Beis Yosef, it’s quite short and easy to read the whole thing, and there is not the slightest mention of what you are talking about. This is the page I’m looking at: http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14265&pgnum=416 There isn’t any reason why a censor would omit this, so there’s no need to look at different editions. You are simply making it up.

    And again you lie about the Bach. He does not “make clear that Jewish people as a whole are not to wage wars”. Nowhere in his words is any such thing hinted at. You are simply making it up.

    Yes, the Rambam holds that mitzvas kibush ho’oretz doesn’t apply nowadays. We all know that, it’s a famous machlokes between him and the Ramban, but what has that got do with anything? He certainly doesn’t forbid wars, and nor does he say that a war to save Jews from attack is not a milchemes mitzvah. The Rambam also (unlike the Ramban) holds that yishuv ho’oretz is not a mitzvah nowadays, but he certainly doesn’t forbid it; on the contrary, he encourages it! So something not being a mitzvah doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it. And he doesn’t mention the three shevu’os at all, which means he doesn’t hold them to be halacha, so he would permit (and perhaps even encourage) the conquest of EY bizman hazeh, if it proved possible. So why you bring him up in the first place is a mystery.

    What is an “officially Jewish state”, and how is it relevant? The Khazars had a Jewish army, which had to follow halacha. So did the Jewish Arab tribes whom Mohammed slaughtered, and the Jewish Berber tribes. So did Mar Zutra’s state, which was surely “officially Jewish” if such a concept even existed in those days, long before the Treaty of Westphalia created the modern state. And so did the Jewish militias of Nehardea, which the gemoro is talking about in Eruvin, in the language which ended up in Orach Chayim 329. They are all Jewish armies, they are all bound by halacha, and they all have a chiyuv (whether or not it’s a formal mitzvah of the 613) to go to war when enemies threaten a “border city”.

31. “Milhouse”,
    Good job on getting the Beis Yosef. I guess it was just too hard to get one of the better additions that include the Bedek Habayis like the “Shiras Devorah” addition. In any case I have a strange tendency to use the newer and more meduyak additions (which are based on older reliable kisvei yad ), but now that I looked at the old addition you quoted I see that the part I quoted is indeed missing in that addition.
    You can continue calling me a liar as long as you want, but the fact (and mabey you also know this yourself) is that in all the newer Mahaduros it is indeed the way I said it that the Beis Yosef says that today those dinim of Milchomo do not apply. This is also consistent with the fact that the Shulchan Oruch leaves out the Halacha of “Ein Tzorin” from 249.
    The example’s that you give are irrelevant as there are not halachik proofs. There were a number of Mar Zutra’s not to be confused with each other The Mar Zutra that rebelled was not an Amora as far as I know, although his son who died the day his father was killed later on became an Amora. What you call “the Melitias of Nehardea” was already discussed earlier they were not working in the context of and independent state but were subsurvient to Bovel.
    The position of the Talmud about waging wars before Moshiach comes was expressed in Ksubos 111. “Shelo Yimridu Ba’umos”.
    The Rambam I quoted to you has nothing to do with whether there is a Mitzvo to live in Eretz Yisroel or not. You are mixing apples and oranges. The Ramba”n does not argue with the Ramba”m on this point at the end of the 14th Shoresh that there is no War and capturing of cities at the time when there is not Beis Hamikdash.
    The Ramb”am also mentions the shvuos at the end of Iggeres Teimon.
    You seem to be very into your nonsense and nonsense could be endless. I cannot waste more time on your futile claims.