Vaadas HaRabbonim LeInyonei Tachburoh, under the guidance of gedolei Yisroel, held a long, exhaustive meeting that ended with a decision to embark on a series of steps designed to pressure and persuade public transportation companies to allow mehadrin lines.
The members of the committee, HaRav Yosef Chaim Kopshitz, HaRav Yitzchok Yosef, HaRav Dov Landau and HaRav Menachem Mendel Fuchs, convened in Jerusalem and following the meeting released a detailed public statement on the committee’s activities and the state of public transportation.
The rabbonim said they have been discussing various matters with Egged and Transportation Ministry representatives in order to make special arrangements that meet halachic requirements. The committee reiterated that this is not a charitable act toward the chareidi public, but rather its due right since chareidim constitute a large segment of public transportation users and they are paying customers.
The committee members said Egged and the Transportation Ministry are well aware of the power of the chareidi sector and they sent some of their top negotiators to maintain a calculated approach in granting the chareidi public “benefits.” Following concerted efforts Har Nof and Givat Shaul were granted a new line, known as Line 15 Alef.
But very soon it became apparent that the line was just an empty gesture to push off the public who requested and received it. An inquiry revealed it only runs a few times a day, and even then the buses are not always dispatched or they run late. The committee asked Egged to increase the number of buses on the line, but received no response. Even a request to issue a bus schedule for the line fell on deaf ears, and the committee suspects that since the company has no intention of operating the line properly, it has refrained from printing a bus schedule to avoid legal claims over late buses and buses that never arrive.
The committee also took issue with the overcrowding on Lines 1 and 2 to the Kosel during Succos. Men and women were crowded together and hundreds of passengers waited for long periods of time at the bus stops. The poor service represented a failure on Egged’s part to meet its commitments toward the authorities and the company compelled passengers to transgress Torah laws.
Vaadas HaRabbonim says that Egged, in an attempt to cover up its failures to properly serve the observant public, has launched an ad campaign in the chareidi press to persuade passengers it is providing special service for the chareidi sector by adding special bus lines. An inquiry by Vaadas HaRabbonim showed although Egged has added a small number of lines here and there, overall the company may have decreased the number of lines by reducing service on Line 402 in the morning and on Line 451.
The committee says Egged started running the ad campaign to cover up for its lack of consideration for the principles by which the Torah-observant community lives in an effort to weaken the power of Vaadas HaRabbonim, thereby freeing it of the obligation to provide passengers real service.
In response Vaadas HaRabbonim decided to look into a recommendation to bring before gedolei Yisroel the need to call upon the public to stop chartering Egged buses for special occasions and to assess preparedness to organize a large demonstration to be led by gedolei Yisroel, in Jerusalem or in another location.
Vaadas HaRabbonim is already making arrangements to purchase buses in order to provide alternative bus service, based on how the campaign unfolds, and therefore is asking the public, both in Israel and abroad, to make donations to cover these and other expenses. Checks may be sent to Mehadrin Transportation at POB 57049, Jerusalem (Israeli checks should be made payable to Tachburat Mehadrin). To make a donation by credit card, please call 1-800-2222-75.
(Yechiel Sever for Dei’ah veDibur)
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67 Responses
I hope the word ‘persuade’ does not turn in to the same way that the mafia uses that word.
please
what is mehadrin service?
“the company compelled passengers to transgress Torah laws.”
Really–how exactly did they do this–tie ropes around the passengers? What a political crock this is.
I’m sorry if this sounds bitter, but I really think I have more important moisdos to send my money too. I would much rather help almonos, yesomim, and other mishpochos that could use every cent we send them, rather then buying a bunch of buses to make some machmirim happy. Priorities, friends.
Boy, oh-Boy! All the Modern Orthodox readers have turned out in force on this issue.
Here is the Hareidi view:
The Hareidim started their own bus lines many years ago, because the secular public in Israel has no concept of TZnius whatsoever.
According to our Torah leaders, the final NiSoyon just before Moshiach comes will be immorality, coupled with atheism (the two go hand-in-hand).
When Egged realized that these services were taking-off and draining a significant portion of their customer base, they half–heartedly started their own “Mehadrin” bus service, in which women sit in the back of the bus, while men sit in the front.
Egged failed to publish schedules for these buses, failed to mark these buses as Mehadrin, and did not enforce the rules.
As a result, there are periodic conflics between Hareidi and secular passengers on these buses. Author Naomi Regan and Shulamit Aloni of the left-wing Meretz party have a case before the Israeli Supreme court demanding an end to “discrimination” on these buses.
Since Egged destroyed the voluntary private bus system by offering a cheaper (and inferior) service, the only practical alternative is to petition Egged to do the job right.
Asking like others, what is a mehadrin busline, is it ok to eat chalav stam on the bus? Personally I like to sit next to my spouse, and since in my family and extended we have lots of females, does that mean that dad, zeyde, and the sole brother go on one bus and the rest of the chevra on anothe? What happens if u r in a rush to the doctor and only male bus arrives and females are waiting? Explain what does this mean? Can women sit in the front on Mon & Thurs, and men the rest of the week? I am confused.
BTW, mega deepthinker i am not Modern, but Orthodox yes!! Guess you conclude if they disagree with you they must be MO’s.
Mehadrin service is where the men sit in the front of the bus and the women in the back in order to avoid negiah and maintain high standards of tznius.
Capitalism in a communist country. What a concept!
We are talking about business and supply and demand.
If there is a demand for Mehadrin buses, then form the company (with INVESTMENTS, not DONATIONS) and ignore Egged.
If there isn’t, then ride Egged, take a taxi or walk.
deepthinker, I don’t understand. How could Egged destroy the chareidi service if their service did not meet the needs of chareidim? Why did the chareidim switch to Egged if the rules were not enforced? Do chareidim give up their chumros just to save a few cents?
Are there no lay leaders that we need our rabbonim to negotiate with bus companies to improve service! Is late service and the number of busses on some lines a cause for concern for a Vaad Harabonim, a call for donations and a threat to boycott?! Aren’t there any askonim, with some time to donate for the rabbim? Are there no politicians or business people with some clout?
why is someone modern orthodox is they have a different perspective and view than you, the deepthinker!
I am very sad to read all of these comments from this article. Every one is very positive about shemita and what the farmers are doing, but when it gets “touchy” (excuse my choice of wording) everyone stops being inspired and starts being defensive.
Mehadrin buses are when men sit in the front and women in the back. This prevents averious, NOT CHUMRAS, which include touching the opposite gender which IS an ENORMOUS issue (if you do not understand this then consult in people who do) and walking behind a woman.
Do you know that in old Europe there used to be separate sides of the street for men and ladies to walk on? We have become so distant from that!
EVERYONE has to realize that TZIYUS is a number one priority today. Has everyone forgotten the tragic #2 bus bombing to the kosel? Are memories that short? Immediately after this, the rabbonim heeded Hashem’s message and made a separate line to the kosel, which today I hear is very schvach.
AS for donating money to better causes, I will say the following over from leading rabbonim from all over the globe: If there will be a higher standard of tzniyus in Klall Yisroel there will be much less premature widows and orphans and sick people.
TZNYIUS IS OUR NISAYON TODAY AND WE HAVE TO BE STRONG IN IT.
Unfortunately the Yivanim (modern day goyim and goyim-like Jews) around us have influences this too to a horrifying proportion.
I know many people who walk and spend money on taxis rather than take buses. Their actions should be a zechus for everyone.
illini07, you have a lot of nerve to call Torah keeping people “vigilante loonies”. I think you should learn more about chanuka’s lesson of “mi laHashem alay!”
Mattisyahu and the maccabim were what you refer to as “vigilante loonies”. If not for them, you would not be here today.
shazam, you are very right in the basic business principle of Supply and Demand, I agree with you. Unfortunately this basic idea gets drowned when it comes to dealing with irreligious beasts whose only real business is to cause frum people to sin.
illini07– “numerous works have been published on morality and atheism – educate yourself before you make wild accusations that atheists cannot have morality.”
WHO ARE THESE “EDUCATED” BOOKS WRITTEN BY PLEASE?
ATHEISTS AND IMMORAL PEOPLE!!!!!!!! YOUR COMMENT IS SUCH A JOKE!
Deepthinker has a point
if a modern orthodox rabbi would [publicly] endorse & encourage support of this vaad, would u not be rather suprised?!
there will be a special place in Olam Haba for any man or women who goes beyond the “normal” accepted tzniut/pritzut behaviors of our time.
THINK about it.
It is a nice concept but not done very nicely. Just last week I was on a mehadrin bus. There was no room for the women to sit anymore in the back. Not one bochur or young man got up for two obviously senior citizen women. It was quite apparent that they saw these women since they were practically falling all over the place. there are many such instances and that is why many of us have negative feelings towards it. There is too much of a male chauvinist attidude when trying to inforce this. So unless it is done right, and with midos………..
Shazam, Egged is heavily subsidized by the government and as such is impossible to compete with. Any private attempt to cut into their routes has been quickly bankrupted by lowering rates until their competitors were out of the market. Secondly the funding basically obligates them to conform to the citizens’ need, not vice versa. It would help for everyone to keep in mind that a little article here does not give the full background & depth to a story local to E”Y.
Another interesting point is that besides for the vaad’s 2 resolutions mentioned at the end, there was another one calling on all frum newspapers not to accept ads from Egged. The vaad’s letter with all 3 resolutions is posted all over Yerusholayim. Interesting how the frum press decided to edit out this one
we must hereby all assume that MYOB will be raising lots of charity to this as many people he knows are spending money on taxis instead of the vigilante loonies Macabian buses!
it seems aswell that MYOB despite his name has a private line with the A-mighty who tells him why there are Tzaros in K”Y and what are the priorities on which the whole K”Y must force others to work on!
to reciprocate a little of your slander towards anyone less holy than your perfect self, let me just quote you but add that ALL your commentS are such a joke!!! a sad robotic puppet joke that will hopefully put a smile on the sad person you became as your opening line in num 18!
I agree with #24. It might be a nice chumrah (absolutely not halacha, see the source quoted above #16) but in the course of carrying it out we are definitely being over on actual halacha.
And it’s so impractical. On a mehadrin bus I attempted to board in the front since I needed to pay the driver and to buy a few things (meaning it was not practical for me to send instructions for 3 separate transactions down the aisle) but a big huge man phyically blocked me (and touched me, I may add). So having no choice, I boarded at the back, then WALKED to the front to take care of my transactions and WALKED back to the back. So if it’s SO untzniusdik for me, a woman, to walk through the men sitting in the front, you would think I should only have to do it once, not twice, no?? So you would think it would be more tzniusdik to “let” me board in the front, right? HA!
There were also times when it was simply too hard for me to sit in the back, such as when I had a stroller, baby + 2 kids. Obviously, grown women sitting in the back wouldn’t get up to let my kids sit down, since who gets up for kids, but in order not to have a nervous breakdown I truly needed my kids to sit. And there were seats in the front. So we all sat down there. Too bad. It HAS to be more assur to force a woman with a bunch of kids and stroller to negotiate her way to the back and go crazy trying to stop them from running around the bus THEN to actually sit near a woman (gasp!) And no, we couldn’t afford a taxi.
I think Egged will do a tremendus public service in expanind the so called “Mehadrin” bus service. The overwhelming majority of Israelis will thus have more limited exposure to chareidim; especially in close quarters and “up close and personal.” That certainly is a good thing.
“Do you know that in old Europe there used to be separate sides of the street for men and ladies to walk on? We have become so distant from that!” – in very few cities was this an accepted ruling, mainly in Chassidish villages.
The problem with women sitting in the back, they have to walk through the entire front area before getting to the back, also men find it harder to sit near other men (while women will normally double or triple up)so there are fewer back seats available..
#16, Reb Moshe’s psak permitting sitting next to a woman is a stated bdieved if there is no other choice.
To call using Mehadrin a “feel-good chumrah, and to force it down other peoples throats” is pathetic and unworthy of further comment.
BMW, maybe a chevrolet?
The better question is why did no woman stand up for the senior citizens, so they could sit in the Ezras Hanoshim.
I find it interesting that if tznius so important,
why is it muter to touch a woman by hitting her to get her to move. I have never seen or heard and of the Gedolim say this is allowed. I have never seen or heard any Godol raise their voice to a woman. Why not put the men in the back of the bus and let the women sit in front. For this chumra and it is a chumra, how many DeOreisas are we oiver?? Often times these psaks are not coming from the Gedolim but from othes who control access and what is told to them. More would be accomplished if we act with good midos while taveling on the bus. We forget Ben Adom LeChavero
As a person who lives among Ultra Orthodox Jews, and has seen first hand the “petitions” to Egged being violantly delivered, WHERE in the Torah handed to us at Mount Sinai, Does physical abuse get condoned.
A tzanua person would not touch a woman, not his own wife, let alone hit her. Said woman on this occasion was dressed tzanua, and was returning home from working as a cleaner in the orthodox neighborhood.
Good enough to clean their floors, not good enough to travel on the bus?
There has got to be a better way to deal with our communal problems, than violently beeting up people, whom together with us will see the coming of mashiach?
But hey, ultrajew, dont we all (yourself included) know how and somehow skip out details at times when it suits us? so is your point to say that only when it convenes ourselves to only partially remember every detail or RULE and conveniently forget what doesn’t suit OUR likings, ONLY BY US ITS OK?
Besides, who said we all have to listen to these ‘resolutions’?
“The overwhelming majority of Israelis will thus have more limited exposure to chareidim; especially in close quarters and “up close and personal.” That certainly is a good thing.” BAD BAD BAD THING, we are one nation with one abba in shamayim, it is impt to see each other, converse and be pleasant one to another.
Reading all the above comments, I am saddened to see that so many good people are so ignorant of their authentic Jewish heritage.
Rav Avigdor Miller, ZT”L, explains that the practice of wearing a veil among Arab women comes directly from our father Abraham, who taught this method of Tznius to his son Yishmael, as the Torah states, with respect to Rivkah, that she covered her face when she saw Yitzchok coming toward her in the field.
Unfortunately we have all assimilated the Pritzus ideas of the gentiles around us, to a greater or lesser degree. That is the price we pay in GoLus.
Maybe we’re not officially Modern Orthodox, but our assimilated thinking runs in the same direction on many issues.
Look at Charlie Hall’s comment (no. 33). He is comparing the concept of Mehadrin buses to the racism and segregation of blacks in America–what an incredibly ignorant and false comparison.
Now, during Chanukkah, is a very good time for all of us to reconnect with our authentic Jewish traditions–“Heyn Am LeVaDad YishKon, U’VaGoyim Lo YisChaShov!”
(please ignore this if you’ve read it under the news headline ‘Egged Manages To Fit 100+ People In One Bus!’)
HEARD THE LATEST ABOUT THE CLEVER PEOPLE WHO CALLED A ‘RADIO STATION’ IN PANIC OF BEING IN AN OVERCROUDED BUS?!!!!
HA-HA!
just wondering if that call to the public radio station and police was considered ‘snitching Lsheim Shamayim’? if it would indeed be for the safety of the passengers (and not merely for their worry of touching a woman without hitting her) than:
1. why would they call the radio station and not the police?
2. if in danger get off quick! dont waste time on the phone etc.?
my point is that i believe that when some people have a sick motive to put down Egged – they’ll stop at nothing to find criticism. Had that same bus been one not to accept more passengers once overloaded – the complaint would have been “look at Eggeds lack of service to the paying public” “cant they make a leeway for me the Tzadik who the world was created for”?
(live) and let live, please!
“that the practice of wearing a veil among Arab women comes directly from our father Abraham, who taught this method of Tznius to his son Yishmael, as the Torah states, with respect to Rivkah, that she covered her face when she saw Yitzchok coming toward her in the field”.
Waiting for the next tzinus chapter, woman cover your faces like the imahoes (how did pharoh’s guards know sari was so beautiful), or put teenage daughters in boxes so that non frum men do not see them. Will this include long robes, kefiyahs & turbans, with sandels for the men? There goes the black hat and here comes the kefiyah.. whew!!!
The old saying still holds true:
If you have nothing to say, then–
LAYtZOnO AChas DoCheh MeiYa ToChoChos!”
sammy, I have not made ANY comment on this thread previously. It may be worthwhile for you to get your ”stories” straight before letting loose your sinas chinum — especially on Chanukah.
IF you are referring to the illegally double parked car thread, I said such a careless inconsiderate person ”deserves” that, I don’t advocate vigilantism.
charliehall and illini, whats next? We need to get rid of mechitza’s in our shul’s because it looks bad in the 21st century?
Your arguments borders on the perposterous.
And illini, your trying to equalize the Torah with an atheists position is absurd. The Torah is right and the atheists are wrong. We do not need any scholarly discussions for such facts.
And seperating men and women on a bus is not a chumra but a black-and-white tzinus issue according to many poiskem. So your trying to dismiss with the pejorative “chumra” is laughable.
And please don’t attempt to impose your “modernity” upon us keepers of the faith, as you will fail miserably.
P.S. Whats next Charlie? Abolish the brocho Sheloi Usani Isho since it “makes Judaism look bad”?
36, I definitely agree that I have my own personal failings (though how you’d know what they are is beyond me). And whether you have to listen to these resolutions wasn’t my point. I was just pointing out a lack of journalistic integrity, something which is all too common.
41, no one ever expects a full bus to stop for them, however it is expected of egged to send more busses during rush hours, whenever they may be. Again, Egged has a contract with the government, not to make money but to provide service. Any complaint in this regard is legitimate.
And charliehall, would you listen to yourself?! “here in the US there is very little that is considered quite so disgusting”. Last we checked Egged operated strictly in the middle east. Please try to leave your american heritage out of this discussion.
Rebbetzin tootired (28), Did you “see the source quoted above #16”, or did # 31 throw you off a bit? Why not leave it to the rabbonim to decide what’s halocha & what’s not?
As far as your 2nd point please realize that a mehadrin bus was never intended to address the issue of women walking between men, rather it tries to prevent actual contact between men and women, which can easily occur during BOARDING and SEATING the bus. If men and women board at separate entrances and sit in separate sections this michshol is avoided. Once the people in the front are seated the women can walk to the front w/o any problems. (of course if the bus is overfull then walking to the front wont be any easier , but that’s a separate issue)
I agree that at times it may be hard to comply such as in the case you mention at the end. But isn’t the mitzvah of vhoya machanecha worth the occasional effort? Lfum tza’ara agra!
“a black-and-white tzinus issue according to many poiskem”. We are back to BOX #1, if you are part of the kehilla who has paskined that this is assur, then do not travel on mixed gender buses,– walk, drive, take a taxi or sherut instead,……..end of the story.
Why is it so hard to understand that a JEWISH country should cater to JEWISH people? So what if it’s a “chumra”, what’s wrong with a chumra? We live the rest of our lives doing chumras! illini07, how many candles did you light tonight? 1 or 6? Well maybe you should light 1, b/c its a chumra to light more!
You said in #17 ,”I’m not gonna waste my breath”. Don’t.
“what if it’s a “chumra”, what’s wrong with a chumra?” – Chumras are not halachas they can be krum also.
SERIOUSLY, there is a need to balance religious coercion with the supposed wants of a segment of the Charedei kehilla. JEWISH PEOPLE includes all the jewish children of our Father, b”h some closer to Father and some more wayward, will this cause the wayward son to rush home and embrace the family traditions?. Do I need to care about that? This has been a century long hashkafa dilemma, if YW bloggers can solve it-‘go for it’, so far it sounds as if the dilemma is still raging strong. Chag Sameach.
To all those commenters who asked why is it muter to hit the women to get them to move, but not sit near them, here is the answer.
The Rambam paskens that any any contact with a woman that is an ervah to you is assur if it is bderech chibah vtaavah and/or he enjoys the physical contact. Since hitting her is not bderech chibah vtaavah, it’s muter. Pashut. (Yes, this was sarcastic. This also is the reason why Rav Moshe ZTL permits mixed seating on trains and busses, because the touching is incidental, not derech chibah vtaavah.)
you think we only have this problem in israel??
the boro park bus also is “mehadrin”-which is very nice-however these men sometimes think they own the bus.on more than one occasion i saw empty seats by the men,but the ladies had no place so they had to stand.the men did not care to move!!
also, many times mothers put their young children into seats, and when there are no seats left,and a young 20 year old married lady comes on,noone gets up.the mother does not think of telling her children to get up.why??because this is not an old grandma??this lady could be pregnant,nauseous, and dizzy.or she could be diabetic.who knows??let these mothers and girls get up for married ladies!!!listen-this does not always happen.many times a child or girl will get up for another.but there were times i had to stand for a good 45 minutes cuz noone got up for me.and i was pregnant, dizzy and could not say anything since it was still a secret.now i think twice before getting up that bus.so teach your friends and family to have derech eretz!!!
I am very amused to be “dared” by someone who cannot do any harm to me. I am very confident in my opinions and I am backed by ideas of the Torah and Rabbonim. You cannot scare me and force me to accept your ludicrous modern ideas of what being Jewish is and is not.
I “dare” you to take out seforim on lashon hara and better verse yourself.
sayalittleanddoalot: I suggest you stop talking so much and take out a sefer or tehillim, then you will be doing a lot.
To be sure if there will be mehadrin busses, then a woman’s right to a seat, subject to availibility, must be absolute. Perhaps the busses can be retrofitted with an imovable barrier in the middle of the bus. Fifty percent of the bus would be for men, and fifty percent for women. Without such a system, this “Mehadrin” service is just so much mysoginy.
Cantoresq, I got the impression that the same thing can be established with the front and back arrangement and the side to side, both are half and half. There is a back door on all the buses that falls out to around half the bus. So if women go up there then they have half the bus.
#61 (cantoresq): Misogyny?? PUH-LEEZ.
#62 (illini07 [BTW, ya gonna change that to 08 next month?? Gotta keep up with the times]): I really wish you’d stop that “infantile” & “insecure” business of putting down others in debate. Keep the tone friendly…
I don’t know, illini; seems to me that your general attitude when debating on this site is quite negative and condescending. Nobody appreciates that.
You are definitely NOT the first person I’ve said this to.
Why can’t we all just get along…?
I agree with the comments by delibertalyesoteric, I think that debates should be consistent with torah and derech eretz.
illini07, as far as i remember you never cited a specific source for your insights, just words bordering on verbal abuse to have others accept you ideas. if you have specific quotes, I would be intellectually interested in hearing who and where things you said are stated. I have no interest anymore being involved in a debate that turned to be a machloches.
As Shlomo hamelech says, A man’s heart is like water to another man, just like water reflects so to what is in a man’s heart reflects to another man. If you are really interested in “getting along” as you said you are, then others will also get along with you.
Thanks for the backup, MYOB – illini07 seemingly is not sure what I am talking about.
DeliberaltyEsoteric, please explain why not earmarking half the seats on a bus for women is no mysoginistic?
cantoresq, Out of pure curiosity, I looked up the definition of misogynistic (that is the correct spelling) and I found that it means “Of or characterized by a hatred of women.”
If you believe this action is motivated by hatred of woman then your idea of tzniyus is very misunderstood.
Tzniyus elevates a woman. It never puts her down. People who truly understand and practice tzniyus understand this because they experience it. Anyone who does not practice it fully usually ends up feeling discriminated against instead of valued.
If you are a lady then I highly recommend that you further your knowledge of our beautiful concept of tziyus.
KSN Very accurate info about tznius but you completely misunderstood what cantoresq said.
KSN I have no qualms about the laws of tzniut. I have no issue is people elect to sit seperately on public busses (although I do have a big problem with anyone forcing such standards on other who do not share them). My comment is about reserving or earmarking seats for women. Tzniut, as you accurately state, does not call for the oppression of women. Denying a woman a seat on a bus becuase there happen to be many men on it and not taking steps to create equanimity regarding seats, does smack of misogyny.
Cantoresq, I don’t understand. You say that they are reserving seats for women and then say that you are denying women seats! There is a specific location for women, in the back of the bus. But there IS a location. They are not kicking women off the bus, just hoping that by having men sit in the front and ladies in the back, it would avoid tzniyus problems. No one is saying a woman cannot sit down!
When a woman is not sitting on the bus, usually men are also not sitting. Not because of this arrangement but because there happen to be not enough seats! (Refer to article on Egged squishing people on buses.)
Also, there are usually an equal amount of men and woman traveling at any given time, except times of day when men need to travel to kollel or work.
Besides, the few times that a person does not provide a woman a seat when the situation does calls for it does not mean that because that individual is not doing the right thing that the entire idea is wrong and abusing women.
The brother of R’ Dovid Solevatich was traveling to Kever Rochel a short time ago (last week I think). Anyway, the bus was very crowded and completely mixed. As soon as he walked on, immediately people yielded their seat to him since he is a chosheve person. However, he chose not to take the seats since there were women all over, so he stood in teh front of the bus next to the driver the entire time. This Rav is in his eighties.
So, not only women are the ones that suffer.
B”H we should learn from Rav Dovid to travel to Kever Rochel, mama rochel waits anxiously for her children to come comfort and daven besides her. Decisions are decisions.
It was Rav Dovid’s brother.
KSN:
Are half the seats earmarked for women, yes or no? Say a bus has 50 seats and there are 30 men and 30 women on the bus. Do five men and five women stand, or do ten women stand? That’s my point.
I don’t get your point. Whatever works out is what happens. Who ever can find a seat does and whoever cannot does not. The buses move quite quickly, so people act fast without time to do math on how many people from each gender are standing. If there are no more seats in the front in a really separated bus, then men stand. And if there is no more seats in the back of the bus than women stand. Its not so complicated.
What constitutes the front and the back? Is there a demarcation indicating that men cannot sit or stand beyond a certain spot on the bus?
There is no specific mark, but people use their visual perception to see what is about half way. I have seen people shift around when one half was too far forward or backwards to accommodate the other gender. It also depends on what time a day it is. If there are more men then they take up more of the “Front” and if it is a time when there are more women, the “Back” is pushed forward.
The exact location does not really matter, rather that there is a separation.
For example of what I am saying, if you travel early in the morning when men are going to kollel/work, the buses are packed with men. So obviously, they will take up most of the bus and the ladies will gravitate towards the back.
However, when all the men are at kollel/work and the ladies are going about their errands, shopping, doctors appointments, etc… then it is obvious that the men will have less space in the front and the ladies will take up most the bus.
It is the separation that counts, which I have seen achieved very beautifully, respectfully, and peacefully many many times.
As my great aunt Bella was wont to say: “This smells funny and I’m not eating it.” Especially given the incidents of violence against women on the bus
Just because some people are violent and not doing the right thing does not mean that the whole thing smells funny. Not all Jews are tzadikim, that does not take away that many other people DO do this concept properly.
I’m curious if you live in Eretz Yisroel and are basing your ideas on first hand experiences or by hearsay. I do live in Eretz Yisroel and have witness much good that people do. I have also been the subject to one very unpleasant experience in this topic, but that was the fault of that individual person who was being not nice and inconsiderate and not sensible. But that was that one person. My views are not effected by individual incidences. That would be narrow minded. I try to keep my view on the whole picture, which is positive.