Two months after the establishment of a Vaad HaSechirus in the Yerushalayim neighborhoods of Ezras Torah and Tel Arza, an apartment has been placed on the ‘blacklist’.
In a notification which was prominently plastered across the neighborhood before Shabbos, the Vaad announced that 10 Elkana Street, Apartment 17 is forbidden to be rented by members of the community. This follows a month of intense negotiations between Vaad representatives and the owner of the property. The owner insisted on an exorbitant price of $1,250 a month for the two bedroom apartment, while the Vaad’s professional assessors valued the apartment at less than $1,000.
Despite efforts by Rabbinical figures and activists, the landlord refused to list his apartment for a reasonable rate. He now finds himself utterly unable to rent the apartment, as community members are firmly adhering to the Vaad’s decisions. As the posters proclaimed, “Anyone renting this apartment will be subject to all the sanctions established by the Vaad.”
The Vaad has the strong backing of neighborhood Rabbonim from across the spectrum. In the short period since its inception, it has succeeded at stabilizing rent prices in the neighborhood. Dozens of apartments have since been rented in a permissible – and reasonable – fashion. Organizers stress that they are in no way attempting to lower rents, but are simply maintaining stable and fair pricing.
A well placed source inside the Vaad claims that another front is brewing as well. Until now, no member of the community has dared violate the guidelines established by the Vaad. Reportedly, an apartment on Elkana Street was just rented, long distance, to a recently married couple, currently living in New York. The agreed price greatly exceeded the Vaad approved price.
Efforts are underway to contact the overseas renter to advise him of the local guidelines. The Vaad sincerely hopes that, once that individual is alerted to the situation, he will immediately cancel his contract. Otherwise, the source in the Vaad advises, he will be in for a less than warm welcome when he arrives in the neighborhood.
(Tel Arza News / Vaad)
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87 Responses
GO TEL ARZA VAAD!!
1.No-one will rent that slimy apartment in Elkana 10, its probably worth less than the even the Vaad agreed to! And noone wants to get put in cherem
2. The second item: Supposedly someone just rented an apt on Elkana for $1400 and is coming soon from America. If he doesnt back out quick, he’s going to be greeted at the door with a hafgana!
PORETZ GEDER YISKENO NACHASH!
The Vaad is a euphomism for mafia. In a democracy you have a right to get your moneys worth they invoke hebrew and yiddish words to throw you off but there is nothing torahdik about it.
Are you claiming that all the Rabbonim who created it are a mafia? Or did you not know that Rabbonim from every group and hashkafa support it?
Either way, you are way out of line (or maybe you own an apartment on Rehov Elkana?)
In any event you can only get as much as the renters will give! If they will stop giving and create a new market price, that now becomes the fair market price.
I’m not living in Israel and have no vested interests there.
“In any event you can only get as much as the renters will give! If they will stop giving and create a new market price, that now becomes the fair market price”.
This is my point it has nothing to do with torah it has to do with your pockets, be honest about it.
Maybe we should ask Hillary Clinton to get involved – being the socialist that she is.
There was a letter in one of the Lakewood papers from a woman complaing about the exorbitant prices of houses here.. Her comment “It is not fair that Bnei Torah are forced to pay such prices – How are they going to be able to learn Torah in Lakewood if they cannot afford it”
The answer to her is “learn somewhere else where it is cheaper” The answer to all those in Ezras Torah is live somewhere else.
Havea little more faith in Hashem – He provides everyone with just the right amount of money they need – TYhere is no 614th and 615th mitzvah that commands you to live and learn in Lakewood nor Ezras Torah!!
shame on these people.
calling them mafia – is calling rav nosson tzvi finkle, and rav dovid solveitchik mafia.
how low can you get?
yw editor – please do not approve comments which are calling gedolim mafia indirectly.
Editors Response: You got it. We will not approve such comments.
MAFIA?
The Gedolim are MAFIA?
I would like to find out who you are and be lochem a milchemes kovod hatorah.
I’mnot ch’v calling the gedolim mafia. They arent the vaad.
you guys should all calm down and get a life
Is it possible that the owner has 11 children, whereas, the young couple coming from America is quite wealthy and willing to pay $1250. Should we order them to pay $1000. Its best if the market is left alone to operate based on the principle of supply and demand. If the rents are controlled, nobody will be willing to build there.
to Feif Un
by any chance did soone force you to go to work? are you a little sad about that? i agree there is a concept of market value but we are dealing with people coming to eretz yisroel to learn torah don’t you think the landlord should be a little helpfull and trust hash-m that he’ll get his money from another source?
Didn’t we learn in economics 101 that the market produces the most efficient price? This price is the most efficient in that it satisifies the largest number of sellers AS WELL AS the largest number of buyers? Artificially keeping the price low creates shortages. You are hurting the people who will not be able to find an apartment because the prices are too low! (We learned about shortages first-hand in America when the government decided to regulate prices and institute quotas in response to the oil embargo. Remember those lines for gas?) Controlling rent also contributes to slum lording–but let’s not go there…
who will be the first one to give the overseas people their money back as well as pay for legal expenses when they hear about this vaad and its edict?? how are people on this side of the pond to know about the vaad etc?? give us a break.
LETS GET ONE THING STRAIGHT: THESE VAADIM ARE NOT RUN BY GEDOLIM. THEY’RE RUN BY A FEW GREEDY TENANTS LOOKING TO SAVE THEMSELVES MONEY BY INTIMIDATION AND BORDERLINE GANEIVA. AT LEAST ONE OF THESE VAADIM HAS DONE NUMEROUS THINGS THAT WERE NOT APPROVED BY THE ORIGINAL RAV THAT ENDORSED IT. IT WON’T BE LONG BEFORE THE PUBLIC SEES THE VAADIM FOR WHAT THEY ARE, AND THE WHOLE INCIDENT DISSOLVES. THINK ABOUT IT NEXT TIME YOU SEE (UNFORTUNATELY) SOMEONE WITH A CELL-PHONE IN THE MIR. EVEN THAT WAS HARD TO ENFORCE AND AT LEAST IT WAS CREATED L’SHEIM SHOMAYIM.
This is exortion at the highest levels. Had the government imposed something like this on the landlords it would have been met with contempt and violent riots from the community.
An apartment, just like anything else, is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If an appraiser says that the apartment is worth $1000, and someone is willing to pay $1,250, then it’s quite obvious that the appraiser is wrong.
It’s pretty clear that learning Gemarah doesn’t mean you understand basic economics.
“If people are willing to pay more, then that’s what the apartment is worth”. – A core course in any college curriculum is ECONOMICS 101, take the course & you will understand how supply and demand works.
The Torah has price controls. There are halachic guidelines what the maximum a seller is permitted to sell for. He cannot necessarily charge as high as the market will bear al pi halacha.
“Organizers stress that they are in no way attempting to lower rents, but are simply maintaining stable and fair pricing.”
Huh? Forcing someone to lower the asking rent from $1,250 to $1,000 a month isn’t “attempting to lower rates”?
Can someone please explain to me why anyone this makes any sense, besides for the standard “the Gedolim said it, so it must be correct” answer that is usually said over here?
If you want rents go down, the best way to do it is to encourage developers to build more units. Telling them they can’t rent their units at market prices is a guaranteed method to keeping developers out.
The Gedolim ARE the Vaad because they sanction it’s worthiness. Why is it that people will respect a shtikle Torah from the Rosh Yeshivah Harav Hagaon Rav Nosson Tzvi Finkel on a sugya in Yevamos but when it comes to Choshen Mishpat he is part of “a mafia”?
arches: The gedolim are behind the Vaad 100%. The Vaad comes to them with all their questions.
FYI: There was an apartment a few weeks ago that the Vaad was involved in. The landlord was forced to agree to them. They aren’t acting like bully’s but rather acting as a voice for the community. I know of a family that would be on the street now if not for the Vaad. Their landlord one day decided to hike the rent one day by over $250.00. The apartment has mold and has no heat. This is the cheapest that there is. There aren’t any alternatives (unless you consider letting them raise their children in a violent neighborhood).
arches Before you comment on any vaad member , speak to one of them and know the facts , I did.
Any action taken is under the authority of the nighborhood rabbanim who are standing in unison ,
and will ostrasize anyone renting any apt which has been blacklisted. they are being guided by gedolim in E”Y .They work tirelessly to bring about a peacefull resolution .Listen to Daas Torah
and have emunas chachomim !!!!!
you ever heard of the rebbes taking a stance on the cost of fish or the cost of shtreimels. is what you cam get really the fair market price or are some people a little greedy because they can get away with it. and your chutzpa of telling people to get a job is unbelievable. Can you afford everything you need just because you get a job?!
Do’nt convince yourself the rabbis are involved.
Unfortunately there are many self interest people, who use the rabbi’s name for personal reasons. This is not a new thing, this is happening with the Heter Mechira also. Just because they are rabbis, it doesn’t mean they can’t be abused.
Kvod hachamim bimkomam munach
i think most of you dont live here and dont understand that this had to be done .in my opinoin the landlords are taking money only bec they know people will not have a choice and take the apartement this is called stealing .good for the vaad that they stand up to go against it .and the one who said that if they cant aford the rent should go to work ….i think you should tell it to the landlords they should get a job like this they will not have to ask for such crazy rent .to go so low for money bec you can get it …….sad
What exactly are the sanctions that the community of Ezras Torah can impose? In the community of Samhedria Murchevet, under HaRav Hagoen Rav Yitzchak Berkowitz, there is a central shul and therefore the halachic status of a kehilla. As such, there is an element of control over people who rent in the neighborhood who desire to be members of that kehilla. Either play by our rent rules, or you can’t get an aliyah in our shul, or be part of our shul’s N’Shei. But in Ezras Torah, you are walking distance to so many yeshivos and shuls to daven in, and there is no “One Kehilla” how exactly does this Vaas plan on implementing and enforcing any of these rules?
I wonder if the landlords are going to organize themselves in a group and take some action. I’m not on anybody’s side because I don’t live there and don’t know the situation, but there might be a tsad to say that the landlords are an oligarchy (a small group having access to limited resources, like OPEC), and need to be controlled to establish fair prices. On the other hand, if the prices are not worth to the landlords, it could lead to slumming. My opinion – the situation needs to be evaluated by trained economists and government should establish some kind of guidelines for the region.
this is free market economics if you rent in that neighborhood over a certain amount the neighborhood will for their own “free market” purposes treat you as persona non grata your still free to rent your just getting a little “more” for your money
To 21. kollelleit
“People…” weren’t at the shiur klali either.
Simple Frum,
It seems like all the Rabbonim are behind the Vaad and the Halochos of Onaah. While it may be more difficult to implement their sanctions in a larger community, it definitely is producing some solid results.
As mentioned above in other words, there are halachos that effect the price, above and beyond market forces. Yes, I learned economics 101, but they are not the final word on what determines a price. A shomer mitzvos needs to take more than that into account -he needs to learn halachos of gouging, competetion, etc… all more important than market factors.
Here in New York we have price controls. Where there is a shortage of housing, landlords can and will take advantage. People need a roof over their heads.
When NY tried to remove price controls on all apartments as they turned over 35 years ago, rents doubled overnight. This “chazerishe” action by the landlords resulted in the imposition of “rent stabilization”.
The gemara in pesachim discusses a similar situation with regards to pots after pesach where Shmuel threatened to change his psak, which required thepepople to buy new pots after Pesach, when the retailers tried hiking prices.
In halacha, fair is fair, but taking unfair advantage of a bad situation is not permitted!
IsraeliYid (#30),
You misunderstood my point. It was in response to some commentators above claiming that the concept of price controls is keneged HaTorah. I made the point that the Torah actually supports price controls depending on the circumstances.
I am not sufficiently familiar to the matzif in Eretz Yisroel today to comment how the Torah’s price controls would currently apply. For that I would fully rely upon the Gedolim of Eretz Yisroel who are far more astute than any of us.
As a child, when i was in cheder, I was aloud to ask my rebbe something that I dont understand, & my rebbe would always answer me and explain me the answer, there is nothing wrong with asking a gadol what the basis & source of his decree is.(unless there is no source) I’m simply trying to understand where the rabonim got the HALACHIC authority to set the rent price??
And to YW I really hope you post this comment, I’M SURE THE GEDOLIM HAVE A ANSWER I’m in no way talking against any gadol CHAS VSHALOM. their all much bigger then I am.
I would suggest the honorable & caring Vaad, to rather focus on the prices of Matzoh’s (for pesach) or the prices on a lulav & esrog, they’re out of control.
All those who think economics is on the side of the Baaleia Dira (or Yashrus for that matter) try and picture this: A yunger man needs a parnasah, so he takes his chasunah gelt or savings, let’s say $30,000 and puts a down payment on a Dira in Ramat Eshkol worth 300,000 Through a miracle called EMI which gets a 90% mortgage. Now he has no cash and a $1350 a month mortgage payment. What does he do? Charge the renter $1350 cause his parents are rich and can afford it anyway. Looks to me like one step away from reposition by the bank. No wonder the Baalei Dira are worried.
(This is a gross generalisation and not an actual story)
If a landlord invests $350,000.00 in an apartment and charges $1,000.00 per month, he is making a return of roughly 3.5% yearly on his investment (assuming he has 0 expenses which is not the case.) His mortgage is approximately 7.5% at current rates in Israel. If he charges $1,250.00 he is making a return of 4.33%. His loss is still signifigant, albeit almost 1% less. Either way he is losing money monthly. I am not proposing that you feel bad for landlords, only that you consider his position as well as that of the tenant. Seeking to increase ones return (actualy, to mitigate a loss) from 3.5% to 4.3% is not onah or chazeirish. Incidentally, Mortgage rates in Israel 5 years ago were 4%. Rents have not gone up proportionate to interest rates.
In comparison one might want to examine the price of Sheitlach. (Presumably, these tenants wives wear a sheitel) The mark up on a wig is astronomical. An importer can bring in a case of wigs for approximately $50.00 per wig. $3,000.00 plus retail is onah. Where is the Vaad? Perhaps the Vaad should prohibit wearing a Sheitel in excess of $75.00. Of course the Vaad members would have to go home that night (to their discounted rental apartments) and face the wrath of their wives.
Pinay #29 ..free market economics is charging as much as you can get. “vaadim” with threats is not free market.Cherem isnt free market it’s abusing power.
nochamol — December 2, 2007 @ 3:25 pm,
I don’t know the precise details of what’s going on in the Jerusalem real estate market but as a New York City renter I know much more about the renters market here.
First off, the price in the place I’m renting how now risen so high that I will probably move out when my current lease period expires. A lot of my friends are moving because the prices in this neighborhood are a lot higher then they used to be.
The sentiment among us is not a call for rent control. Its shock that people are willing to pay these rents.
Second, it is price controls, rent stabilization rules and zoning laws unrelated to safety that are the cause of a great deal of these high prices.
My apartment’s rent may have risen 40% over the past two years but the new landlords are redoing the whole building. In the long term, people moving in here will be better off (though I will not be). Meanwhile contruction continues for new buildings up and down the block. Buildings that were in an area formerly set aside for rent-controlled apartments.
A far larger residential building was put up nearby. But then local residents now put in zoning laws to keep those out. You know what that means? Since the only place to build is up, it means higher prices for the rest of us. Current landlords win and some tenants do too. A lot of current tenants, could-have-been tenants and real estate developers are harmed.
To often here in NYC, rent stabilization is a way of providing housing for lower-income people while the middle class are unable to afford to live here. There are lower-income people with terraced apartments here in older buildings. Me and my friends could never afford that apartment. Were those buildings on the general market, the price of those apartments would rise but the rest of the market would go down.
Simply, in NY rent stabilization keeps the prices high. A small number of middle or lower income people get a windfall but a larger amount are harmed because the low rents mean its less likely that more apartments get built.
Regretably, the only long term way for lower prices and decent buildings is a free market that charges very high rent now to provide incentive to build as many apartments here as possible.
Joseph and others mentioning Onaah. There is no onaah on real estate. This includes rentals. CM 227:32. If I recall correctly, although this is from a drasha, the reason said for this is that land is worth whatever one will pay for it. For this reason changes in price are not ribbis. This can only be from some other sort of takono.
Isn’t unreal, how $$$$$$$$MONEY shakes the boat, gets the name calling almost as most as NK, and Zionists, and causes the path to be crooked.
litvok613 — December 2, 2007 @ 4:02 pm,
What landlord loss? Payments of mortgage are not a loss. The capital remains in the apartment to be reimbursed when the apartment is sold. You left that part out.
The only loss in you scenario would be fees and taxes.
Sorry, but these landlords are literally taking advantage of the american parents who are scraping to support their kids in Torah. This is no excuse for a two bedroom to be 1250 dollars just b/c it’s in yerushalayim. That is ludicrous. It should be maximum 900 dollars! Even that is more than it is worth! I know women who are working really hard to support their husbands in kollel. To have their rent raised like that is ludicrous. This isn’t only about money . This is about young kollel couples trying to make it in Yerushalayim. (I live in RBS by the way)
One thing all the economics professors are forgetting to write is that efficient markets are far from a proven fact. For this reason economists refer to it as the efficient market THEORY. There are many well documented inefficiencies in many markets, including real estate. In fact one of the proofs used by Yale professor Robert Shiller in his book Irrational Exuberance, 2004 ed. to show that the market is controlled by behavioral economics is the recent jump in real estate prices. University of Pennsylvania professor Jeremy Siegal also writes about behavioral economics in his books. In practice very few people in with the advise of EMers. If they would there would only be index funds. EMers would tell you that there is no real way of telling where and when real estate prices will rise more. If there is anything knowable it is already priced in. This would disprove the popular theory that it is best to buy real estate in frum areas.
the apartment is worth whatever people will pay
Comment by frumimaof3 — December 2, 2007 @ 4:44 pm
“This is no excuse for a two bedroom to be 1250 dollars just b/c it’s in yerushalayim. That is ludicrous. It should be maximum 900 dollars!”
Why is $900 fair and $1250 unfair if the landlord can find legitimate renters? Please let me know.
Here in NYC, rent is multiples of $1250. I pay more for my share of the apartment.
This is all about control. The issue of control raises its ugly head over and over again in Eretz Yisroel over any number of issues from rents to cell phones to Internet access, the list is endless. What is the average return on rented residential property in Brooklyn? Why should people here be expected to bow down to a Vaad when they don’t in Boro Park? Why should people from the US who want their children to learn in Yerushalayim expect the Yerushalmi yidden to subsidize them? I see that the people who have allegedly signed a contract are being encouraged to break their word. Who will pay the damages due on that breach of contract? The Vaad, the renter, who? And who will explain to the young couple why it is OK to break your word?
There is another solution and that is to start American communities in more outlying areas such as Ofakim where apartments can easily be rented for $300 a month. Of of course I forgot Ofakim is not near the Brooklyn Bakery or Moishe’s Heimishe Bakery. Funny how there seems to be unlimited money to buy at their outrageous prices.
Please excuse my ignorance.
What is the chiyuv to live in Yerushalayim. What is wrong with the other Torahdigge kehillos spread out over the length and bredth of Eretz Yisroel.
By the same token what is the chiyuv to live in Lakewood? If the oilam would be interested in spreading out and not creating modern, lavish “ghettoes”. we wouls all be better off.
Unfortunately, many members of our chareidishe camps are becoming snobs and exclusionists. IN Ny, at least it seems that it is only Chasssidim in Boro Park, only Satmar (and their like) in Williamsburg. Only the “elite b’nei torah” in Lakewood. Flatbush is a dumping ground for everyone else. As we can see that all of the Flatbush chadorim are suffring in their enrollments. Lakewood and the chassidishe are bursting at the seems.
We would all be better off if we lived among each other, providing our children with the opportunity to see and learn from other yidden who are also chareidi but different. It would reduce so much pressure to conform. It would also ease the housing crisis.
The Bottom line is that we have to rely on Hashem Yisborach for the solutions to our very real problems. The reason is that the problems are so very difficult that any answer, no matter how thought out, is too simplistic.
Its lucky Yehoshua wasn’t living in the 21st century. Imagine trying to divide up Eretz Yisroel and everyone wanting to live in Yerushalayim – especially Ezras Torah area! Hashem would have had to take them back to Miuzrayim untill Klal Yisroel would come to their senses and understand that Hashem gave ALL of Eretz Yisroel to us.
There was a story years ago the Gerer Rebbe told his Chasidim that newly weds are not allowed to buy apaprtments in Yerushalayim. One Choson said that his Shver already bought an apartment for him. The Rebbe told him “If you move into the apartment you can find yourself a new Rebbe”.
And off they all moved to Ashdod and, I suppose other cities in Eretz Yisroel See the following link for a list of Chareide towns all over Eretz Yisroel. In the meantime – figure out how much rent you can afford and move to a home where you will not have the added pressure of having to come up with the rent money every month. It goes for living in Lakewood and Yerushalayim.
Lets Go back in history a bit and realize that these neighborhoods were built and paid for by Yerusheleima Yidden Who scratched together these monies. The fact the all the rich folks that come from abroad with bog wallets dosent give them a right “Al Pi Torah” not in buro park or elsewhere where you do what ever you want. Yes theres a Vaad Call them what you want, but finally normal torah yungerleit don’t have to get thrown out of these apts cause these landlords who don’t care only to make money are put in their place.
“There is another solution and that is to start American communities in more outlying areas”, finally a great idea. We can then have a basketball court, a bais yakov school with knee socks, color war songfest on rosh chodesh, white shirts with thin colored stripes, feathers in shabbos hats, and of course ‘Country Yossie’ magazines.
the vaad is a group of people coming together and working for the greater good of the public…
landlords are free to charge what they want….
however if we are such a closely knit group in the area that can enforce demands like this one, then kol hakavod to us…. that is what a free market is…
what difference does it make if the vaad tells people not to shop in stores that are open on shabbat.. “do it our way and well support you, or do it your way and your on your own”
.. as a closely knit frum cummunity that understand the needs of our kollel brethren,, we say “you charge them less!, or we will boycott your product” that is a free market.
if the landlords don’t like it, lets see if they can find higher payers outside of the yeshiva crowd. (1300 for a 2 bedroom??? i don’t think so)
support the yeshiva families… our world stands on them….
The Yeshiva Crowd stands united
CHAZAK
Although I understand where the Vaad is coming from in relation to high rents. I want to know who will pay the termination fee for breaking the lease?
If it is too expensive for people to rent, the vaad wouldn’t have to outlaw people from renting. They are acting like communist governments putting price caps on things, leading to shortages.
Right across the street from Sanhedria and Ramat Eshkol, in the Shikunei Shmuel Hanavi, four room apartments are going for anywhere from $650-800. True, the neighborhood has (almost) no Americans, but it is at least 90% frum. There are also lots of beautiful playgrounds and parks for the children. For those who can’t afford $1000 rents, it’s a great alternative. We own an apartment there and are very happy with the neighborhood.
After being forced out of our home of several years in Ramat Eshkol, our anger is much less directed towards the landlords who suddenly increased their moldy freezing apartments by 100% than to the spoiled rich Americans who were WILLING to pay the price. Many commentators above are right; why shouldn’t the landlord charge what the market will handle? (quick answer – because it’s against halacha). The guiltiest parties are the rich Anglo RENTERS who LOVE to pay a lot of money – the more they pay the richer they feel.
Vesley – this “decree” refers to new leases.
chazak chazak to you well said
sims 14 it is the same in ramat eshkol the landlords are raising rents .puy an end to this once and for all,
landlords were taking advantage of american bochorim for years , mir yeshivah took the iniciative and brought down rents in their area . its simple landlors would prefer steady rent than no rent ,neigborhood vaads are just taking care of their community if the baal diras dont like it let them sll out.
“Flatbush is a dumping ground for everyone else. As we can see that all of the Flatbush chadorim are suffring in their enrollments”. – As usual wrong facts and lovely fiction, my grandkids are on the waiting list on two flatbush yeshiva ketanas, hoping to get in.
“Lets Go back in history a bit and realize that these neighborhoods were built and paid for by Yerusheleima Yidden Who scratched together these monies”. – History tells us that these communities were established, built and paid for by chutzniks in Europe who sent $$ to the old yishuv.
lakewood is in an economic downturn at the present time. at the time when prices were soaring, no vaad existed to keep prices down. i dont think any vaad is in the making,although i think if some rabonim might get employment it might develop.
personally , i believe that rent control by a vaad is not the dirction to go. if americans or other outsiders want to live in a given shechuna let them pay more. economics and government should contol rents not vaadim.
what would happen if another vaad came to be , in the same shechuna and said prices were ok ,would they fight ; like in vaad hakashrus?
everybody has their chumros and their standard of living. let it run its own course.otherwise, you would have tremendous opposition with the creation of vaadim to control all aspects of life in israel.
Stan the man,
I am someone who works in the flatbush yeshivas. I see what goes on in several different yeshivas. One or two yeshivas have waiting lists. The rest have falling enrollments. Ask the menhalim and askanim. It’s a simple fact.
The yeshivas that I know of that have waiting lists have them because of the following reasons
:they want an “exclusive clientele”
:they have a reputation (I will not go in to whether or not these reputations are deserved or not) as an elite school “producing superior lamdonim”. (IMHO such a school produces a superior ba’al ga’avoh, even though he may be a superior lamdon)
Take a walk (if they let you in) through some of the big flatbush mosdos. You will see smaller class sizes than in previous years and in some mosods EMPTY classrooms. I was sitting in one mossad for the Rebbe’s meeting at the beginning of the year and the menahel said clearly that enrollment is falling and that the rebbeim have to do more to be competitive. (not that that is a bad thing)
BTW I totally agree with your second point.
Shalom
I just gotta point out to the people who conceitedly are telling people that they need to learn ‘econ 101′ that they are completely ignorant of how our economy works. Price ceilings and floors when used en mass can cause shortages and surplus’, but we use them all the time anyways! Have you ever heard of a ‘minimum wage’? Thats a price floor on labor. Labor unions are all about putting limits on wages to prevent unfairness in the labor market. The whole science of economics 100 is also based in theory, in reality you have to figure in externalities such as the fact that people with disproportionate income to the surrounding community are superficially inflating the price, which is the issue at hand. Have you researched the Yerushalayim real estate market? Do you think any native Yerushalmi’s can afford that? It’s the olim who are driving up the prices to unfair heights that are driving the poor out of their homes. You may have a rudimentary knowledge of the basic functionings of markets, but you display a shocking and callous ignorance to how they actually are operating.
In the beginning of Shulchun Oruch Choshen Mishpot the Mechaber clearly writes Chayovim Beis Din Lehamid Memunim al HaSheorim( the Gedolim have to set up a vaad to control market prices ) on all needs of chyai Nefesh not to profit more then 1/6 of costs and only to be supplied directly by producer without any middleman , We also know that Myakrei Sheorim do not have a share in the world to come. For the businesspeople looking to make money there are billions of consumers in the non Jewish world without squeezing the last dollar of your own poor brothers.
Let the investors find other real estate markets Lechu upishtu yedeychem bigdud (King David M. Brochos). Keep our frum neighborhoods affordable so that any of our brothers among us who want to spend their time serving hashem should be able to do so easily hopefully the vaad will expand to other needed items and across all Jewish neighborhoods. Do everything you can to make life affordable for everyone in the community It’s the greatest form of Tzedoko and Chesed.
The free market pricing controlled by supply and demand should only be for luxuries.
Arches Go back to yeshive and study Choshen Mishpot before you make such statements it is indeed very torahdik
Can anyone tell me what, l’maiseh, can or will IN REALITY be done by the Ezras Torah/Tel Arza Vaad to anyone renting this banned apartment? or to this newlywed couple who just rented their apartment long-distance for (by the Vaad’s asessment) too much $$$ ?
Somone in BP,
What is your position in the Flatbush Mosdos?
Economics 101, mafia, crazies, blah blah blah.
While all you pundits from America and beyond are busy pontificating about the righteousness, efficiencny, and legality of the Vaadim we here, on the ground in Jerusalem neighborhoods, are enjoying the peiros of the Vaad’s hard work.
Keep talking!
YOU ARE ALL TALKING NONSENSE, AND YOU HAVE NO CLUE AS TO WHAT IS GOING ON ON THE SCENE.
Enough has already been written in Mishpacha, Modia et al about this. But suffice it to say that renters have aright to get together as a union and declare that “we, as a group (as THE ONLY GROUP THAT HAS BEEN CRAZY ENUOGH TO PAY THESE PRICES TILL NOW) will no longer pay these prices. And anyone who crosses us wont be part of our community”.
What is communistic, socialistic about that that? Its quite straightforward. Its what they used to call ‘Achdus’. When a group gets together, they have bargaining power, they have strength in numbers. UNtil now, it was a free for all, everyone trying to outbid the other by a few bucks. Now, the renters see that they can accomplish much more with this Vaad=Union.
And the proof is in the pudding- it is working: Murchevet, Belz, Unsdorf, Tel Arza and more!
Number 22 says, “The apartment has mold and has no heat.This is the cheapest that there is.”
Gimme a break! As a tentant of 3 different apartments in 3 different neighborhoods in Yerushalayim, I can tell you–they ALL have mold. The renovated, the not renovated, and everything in between. And 2 out of the 3 did not have heat. Welcome to Yerushalayim! Don’t try to make it sound like this specific apartment is a slum.
“This isn’t only about money . This is about young kollel couples trying to make it in Yerushalayim.”
Oh, I see. And if that young couple trying to make it in Yerushalayim happens to own an apartment and is trying to “make it” that way, they can just forget about the whole thing? Only the ones trying to “make it” on what “they parents are scraping together” deserve to stay?
What an upside down world we live in…
Well – after 66 comments with strong and valid points on both sides, this appears to be an issue with no easy solution.
I hope everybody understands that if the va’ad is successful in enforcing the rental cap in certain neighborhoods, absolutely no apartments in those areas will ever be fixed up,maintained responsibly, or repaired. EVER.
Think about it – If you owned an apartment building and the most you could collect per unit was $1000, what would compel you to get rid of mold, fix heaters, repair leaks and appliances, and try to make your building appealing?
How eager would you be to sink money into your building when you know you probably would never recover it?
Tennants will become so unhappy that they will leave this area and move fifteen minutes away (to a non rent-controlled community)where they will discover that for the same money or less, they can get a much larger,safer, and nicer apartment.
Unfortunately, what will happen is that these deserted areas will become slums, where drugs and pritzus will take over the neighborhood. Frum people will vanish from these areas faster than you can say “bad idea” .
Therefore, we must choose the lesser of two evils: Either people pay free-market prices for their apartment rentals,which sadly, most of us cannot seem to afford, or see these areas which are located right next to major yeshivos become completely devoid of Torah and Yidishkeit.
I say keep these lovely areas frum.
Thanks to the high prices, new Torah communites have been sprung up outside of Yerushalyim Ir Hakodesh to accommodate the influx of new Charedi couples. That’s great! It’s high time there were more Kollelim for Chutznikim outside of Yerushalylim. Let Eretz Yisroel flow with Torah and Yira Shamayim. My 2 agorot. 🙂
sims 14 – We were looking to rent in Shchunat Shmuel Hanavi – Eretz Chefetz etc. Guess how much the apartments were going for? $900 – over $1000!! The baal dira said that is the going rate in Maalot Dafna and he insisted that the area was part of Maalot Dafna! It’s so pathetic that it’s almost funny…
the vaad is the best thing to have happened to us here in Israel as somemone who lives here i know and have seen first hand how landlords will just decide one day to raise the rent by 50-200$ reason given why not where are you going to move to. i have this argument with my landlord the whole time and she keeps on saying that yes she agrees that it is not worth 1100 for a small 2 bedroom but if she can raise the rent to that and get a tenet then hay i will make more cash.besides the Israelis that live in these very same area are paying 300$ or more less then what landlords are charging an American. so yes kol hakvod to the vaad
Its ironic how so many people make their money or receive their money from inlaws/parents through free market enterprise , yet when it comes to paying rent all of the sudden its not fair.
People are willing to pay for the location. I saw an ad in America for a nice sized house house for sale somewhere out of town (in a Jewish neighborhood, near a yeshiva) for less than $200,000, while a house like this in the Monsey or Lakewood area (forget about Brooklyn!) would cost twice as much. However I still feel that price gouging should not be tolerated if that is the case in Yerushalayim (or anywhere else). One can live in a cheaper neighborhood and commute to Yeshiva, but young men learning in Yeshiva want to live near their yeshivos, so they opt to live in Yerushalayim. As a parent of several sons learning in Yerushalayim, I tend to side with the renter not the rentee, and I think the rent control is a good idea. Many landlords have bought apartments a long time ago when they were very cheap. They don’t have to ask for such high rents. There ought to be some sort of price control on the selling prices too. (As well as in Lakewood and in Monsey etc.)
Given the abuses which have been perpetuated by more than one greedy landlord in Yerushalayim (including one who tried to claim that my wife’s grandmother’s personal property was his when it was necessary to place my wife’s grandmother into a nursing home), maybe it is not such a bad thing that the landlords must now adhere to certain guidelines for a change.
Having said that, I am quite concerned over the lawlessness of this matter.
Kiryat Hayovel is waiting for frum couples, get together and buy there, the yeshivos will follow. remember after ANNAPOLIS SUMMIT, ramat eshkol is on the border.
Meir (# 67) Zeir Gut Gezugt!
Number 71 “thevoos” says that unions have the right to exist and boycott whatever they want. That’s true. What they have no moral right to do (though nobody can stop them) is threaten people to join their union.
What would you rather? A broken leg, or to be put in Cherem? Most frum Jews would pick a broken leg. Yet, I think, even thevoos would agree that threatening people to join the vaad on threat of a broken leg would be wrong, no matter how pure the motive. So why is cherem OK?
I suggest the reason is because the fear of not being able to afford tomorrows rent, as well as an “I deserve” attitude (as in “I deserve to live in this area”), have blinded residents to this obvious difference.
NO GADOL HAS SAID THAT IT IS ASSUR FOR LANDLORDS TO CHARGE WHATEVER THEY WANT. I HEARD FROM R BERKOWITZ HIMSELF THAT IT IS NOT ASSUR. NOR IS IT ASSUR TO IGNORE THE VAAD.
Rubbish (Number 84) wrote that “What they have no moral right to do (though nobody can stop them) is threaten people to join their union.”
Noone is threatening them to join. They are being told that they will not be PART OF THE COMMUNITY. They won’t get alios, they wont get meals when they have babies, the wives wont be invited to Neshei events, and their kids wont be allowed into gan.
If thats ok with them, they can indeed do whatever they want! Since, however, most people would prefer to be A PART OF THE COMMUNITY – and receive most of the above services, they wont violate the community which offers those services. And if they do, they commit a grave DISservice to the community, which then has every right to not accept them.
In summary, if someone stabs the rest of the community in the back (WHICH IS WHAT THE FEW MONIED YECHIDIM WERE DOING UNTIL NOW BY AGREEING TO OUTLANDISH PRICES) the community need not be welcoming to them. IS that so hard to understand?
REGARDING #81 and #85- Not a single Vaad has made any sanctions against Landlords. On the contrary, they tell them straight out: Look, you have every right to rent to who you want. However, members of OUR community wont rent from you at that price. The renters have every right to say that. And, if the owner decides to FEIF UN, he can try!
REGARDING #74 that Landlords wont fix leaks etc. Again, they can do whatever they want, until now, as well, some landlords kept up their properties, and others didnt (USUSALLY WITHOUT CONNECTION TO THE PRICE!) This can continue, but bear in mind that the Vaad’s (FAIR!) pricing structure takes the apt’s condition into mind when calculating the value.
Number 86 says “if someone stabs the rest of the community in the back (WHICH IS WHAT THE FEW MONIED YECHIDIM WERE DOING UNTIL NOW BY AGREEING TO OUTLANDISH PRICES) the community need not be welcoming to them. IS that so hard to understand?”
Sounds like revenge to me
Either that or coercion.
And I love how fair is defined by what you can afford.
To FEIFUN
Are you a member of cosco , well if your not you cant shop there ! If you choose to defy the wishes of acommunity you are not part of it and lose whatever benifits come with it . basically they can FEIF YOU UN .
Why dont you guys just remember that this is all being done with the consent and advise of the rabbonim of E”Y they have daas torah do you ????
B”H there is now a thread that is longer than the one about Ahmadinejad.