20 Responses

1. If it includes alcohol it would be subject to a great deal of regulation, and raise substantial kashrus issues (as well as hallal issues for the Muslims).

   Be skpetical.

2. who cares Pepsi is a much better drink

3. If this was published in a newspaper 40 years ago, why are we just hearing about it now? I’m 65, so I would know if I heard of it back then, and I didn’t. And I was a Coke drinker – I used to be able to tell my friends what bottling plant a particular glass of Coke came from while blindfolded, from the taste of the water. And number 2, your opinion is that Pepsi is a much better drink – mine is firmly the opposite.

4. Akuperma,

   The company has revealed the formula to Kashrus agencies http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishFeatures/Article.aspx?id=169154 The link is about the first time they did it, in the 1930’s (and removed glycerin from the formula to make it kosher), but I’m pretty sure I’ve seen that someone at the OU is aware of the formula as well.

5. I doubt any recipe for any commercial food or beverage that is 40 years old would still be valid.

6. 1, There IS alcohol in the formula! However what you see is not the formula nor is it the recipe either. There have to be a few more ingredients which are clearly missing. Take it from someone who knows a thing or three about flavors!

7. 2. Thank you for your OPINION however most “regular” cola drinkers seem to prefer Coke.

8. As long as the secret ingredients to Be’er Mayim and Mayim Chaim are not revealed.

9. for #1–The rabbonim (including the OU obviously have dealt with the kashrus issues)

   Always remember–When the Arabs with their boycott tried to force Coca-Cola not to sell to Israel–Coca Cola told them to take a hike while Pepsi caved in.

   Hakoras Hatov to Coca-Cola

10. About 25 or so years ago someone wrote a book about the hilarious reprecussions of Coke announcing it was changing its formula. I wanted to get a copy, but can’t even remember the name of the book. Anybody?

11. The Rav haMakhshir at the OU apparently has the formula. When the OU was originally considering giving its hechsher, years ago, they were given a list of many ingredients which included all the ones actually used, plus others (apparently – but we don’t know for sure – somewhat similarly to the way it was done with R Elberg, and originally, with a R Geffen in Atlanta, the world HQ of Coke). Some ingredients in the particular list given to the OU were deemed problematic, and the negotiations fell apart. Subsequently, it was under R Ralbag for a short time, who apparently was told the actual formula, affirmed to secrecy, but when asked maintained there was no problem at all with the ingredients actually used. It later went back to the OU, with a similar arrangement, and supposedly R Landau of Bnei Brak also had something similar. Agav, a few years ago, before Pesach, Pepsi (under the Chof-K) had apparently decided to take out the corn syrup – שמן קטניות , and it seems that regular Pepsi was temporarily okay for Pesach. From what I’ve seen on the shelves more recently, evidently it is back, with only one or several varieties using sucrose. There was also a rumor that the Cleveland Coke bottler was or had been using sucrose all year, as do the bottlers in Mexico, but I cannot confirm this. Even on Pesach Coke, there are some Ashkenazic poskim who are machmir on the Diet variety, because of the aspartame. The OU and the cRc both certify Pesach productions without corn syrup. As the main Pesach problem is שמן קטניות, there is much less of a problem for אוכלי קטניות and even for those Sefaradim/EM (and some Ashkenazic poskim in EY) who don’t eat certain vegetables, but do not have a tradition to be machmir on שמן קטניות. Most Ashkenazic poskim in America are machmir, especially after R YB Soloveitchik was makpid, years ago. Note that Joyva (besides switching to fish gelatin in the marshmallow products, as we have multiple alternatives, to avoid being somech on R Chaim Ozer’s heter on atzamos of non-shechutim), removes the Chof-k from the box for Pesach. They replace it with the hechsher of the previous Rabbi (it still does not contain stam gelatin, though). There is such as shita to be matir, but we generally are not somech on it, certainly l’chatchila. Ask your friendly posek.

    On another note, how is 1979-2011 “40 years” (it’s in the Fox article too)?

12. 11. Oh so much to comment on but so much work to be done.

    I was trying to understand what you were talking about vis-à-vis the Kof-K and corn syrup in Pepsi. The FACTS are tha no reputable agency allows corn syrup for Pesach. Furthermore, Pepsi was ALWAYS available for Pesach WITHOUT corn syrup. It may be that in your market it wasn’t available but in other places it most definitely was!

    As for the “throwback” sodas, even those not certified for Pesach should be considered CHOMETZ as corn syrup is not the only Pesach issue.

    As for diet coke, the non Pesach product should be considered CHOMETZ, due to other sensitive ingredients contained therein.

13. I should also point out there are two ways to make corn syrup, acid conversion and enzyme conversion. The enzyme used was and may still be barley based which would make it chometz. The acid converted product could in fact be used l’ochlay kitniyos!!

14. 12 & 13 Thank you for your comment! I agree with you. As I said, the reason why Pepsi was supposedly mutar a few years ago was because they had taken OUT the corn syrup, and it was checked by the Chof-K, but it looks like it’s there now, at least in most varieties. At one point, it was under R Charlop, who is also well-respected in the kashrus world – at that time, I assume there was corn syrup in the regular (there has been for almost 30 years) but certainly not in the Pesach production. Currently among the non-diet varieties, it seems that only the “throwback” does not have shemen kitnios, and even that should not be used until and unless we know that the Chof-K says it’s okay for this year specifically – they may well do that, but I haven’t seen Pesach lists for this year yet. At least one of the notices I saw about two years ago, when this all started, made it sound like they had taken the corn syrup out of all varieties, but that may well have been in error. The result is the same, however; one should always check current certification for specific varieties, as ingredients and methods of extraction and production can vary from year to year. How could you interpret my words to mean that a reputable agency in the US permitted shemen kitnios for Ashkenazim, in the past thirty years, or that the sucrose product wasn’t available in my market? Please reread my post – I had said specifically that the ones certified had no corn syrup. Regarding the regular Coke for ochlei kitnios, I know that the JSOR in Deal has been machmir to have everyone use the yellow-capped bottles, but I have heard that there are or were some Sefaradic authorities who were matir – perhaps they were relying on bitul before Pesach under certain circumstances by a non-Jewish company. The reasons not to rely on bitul on a recognizable ingredient like sweetener for Ashkenazim could possibly be more compeling than regarding other ingredients, depending on what they are, even though one case deals with bitul on shemen kitnios before Pesach, and one could potentially be on chametz derivatives. Discussions here are for didactic purposes; each person should consult his or her rav, and as you say, consider it not for Pesach unless you know otherwise.

    Having said that, even though sucrose may be a bit more healthful than high-fructose corn syrup, you’re much better off with fruit juice or water – filtered, of course for those in New York City, and from what I hear is in it, better to filter even if you’re somech on the poskim who hold it is not necessary to filter for kashrus reasons, or if you’re not in New York City. Children enjoy fruit juice – why should we be introducing them to soft drinks? Apple sauce also tastes fine and sweet as it is – why do people even buy brands with added sugar?

    It would be interesting to know, if anyone here can check vis-à-vis Mexican year-round Coke with sugar, whether it has a hekhsher, from whom, and whether it applies to the regular product for Pesach.

    I guess it’s “ששים יום לפני החג,” in a leap year. Since Adar Rishon, when there are two, is always malei in our current computation, and the Adar hasamuch l’Nisan is always chaser, the 30 before 15Nisan would be starting on 14Adar when the p’razos are finishing their mitzvos hayom. Despite “Ein bein…” there isn’t terribly much extra to do during the days of Purim Katan, so we could start a bit earlier, as we’ve been doing today….

15. the OU has a list of ingredients which MIGHT be in Coke. i.e. Coke gives the OU a list of 50 ingredients and only 25 of them are really used. All those 50 ingredients the OU must approve of. (Source my brother who works in Kashrus for the OU)

16. 14, I am very confused by your comment. Corn Syrup happens to be a kosher raw material – there are no sources of n/k corn syrup anywhere in North America! Pepsi has been kosher for as long as I could remember (40+ years) so I dont know what you mean. As far as Pesach was concerned, that product NEVER had the corn syrup added. Corn Syrup is added at the bottling facility and not at the syrup manufacturing site (which for Pepsi is Purchase, NY and for Coke is Atlanta). The Pepsi syrups are still under Rabbi Charlop while the bottling facilities are under anyone they wish. In the NY area, they are under Rabbi Charlop, the Kof-K, possibly the Diamond-K, or NO ONE. As far as outside the NY area, bottlers are able to be certified by whom they wish to be certified or NOT at all. BH, for non-Pesach we know that if the Syrup is kosher, we could use the soda because the only things they add at the bottler are carbonated water, corn syrup or liquid sugar, and possibly some minor ingredients such as citric acid, all of which are kosher anyway.

    As for your corn syrup vs sugar comment: There is a major war going on between the corn lobby and the sugar lobby claiming their product is “healthier” etc. The real truth is that it makes no difference so dont get caught up in their war.

    As far as the “throwbacks” are concerned, they should NEVER be used without the proper Pesach hashgocha on them because as I noted above, there are other Pesach sensitive raw materials in the product that make it CHOMETZ.

    As far as the Mexican Coke is concerned, I was told a few years ago by one of the Coke mashgichim that the product is ok. Coke makes the syrup here in the USA and ships it all over the world. As mentioned above in this post, the bottler adds the rest of the not as kosher sensitive ingredients.

    Im sorry that I mis-understood what you were saying but it wasnt to clear and I wanted to make sure it was understood.

    ML

17. 15,

    The truth is that even in ATL they dont know the real formula. The ingredietns come in from various plants labeled with a product number. Product numbers are blended to make the finished product. Thus there is no reason to know what is really in the product since you know that all the product numbers are indeed kosher under acceptable sources. Coke in ATL makes MANY HUNDREDS of formulas between all the soda brands/flavors they own (coke, sprite, fresca, fanta, etc!) so when the mashgiach has a list of raw materials it is for the entire plant and not just 1/1000 of what they do. But like I said, they arrive at coke with product numbers so that NO ONE, even the workers at coke, know what makes up the flavor.

18. The OU MUST know EXACTLY which ingredients do go into Coke (and which do not) in order for them to be able to certify it as kosher.

    Furthermore, the OU MUST be able to observe – at will – the input of any ingredients during the manufacturing process of Coke. Additionally, the OU must know where all those ingredients originated from, in order to be able to certify them all as kosher.

19. tums,

    I think you need some Rolaids. As long as all the ingredients in the plant are kosher it makes little difference where the ingredients are used.

    If there are any non-kosher ingredients, they need to know where those go too.

20. mark –

    OU needs to be able to inspect the manafacturing process — by surprise at any time — to insure ONLY what is claimed to being used, is being used. And that no one is bringing in outside foods ever.

    Additionally, the OU must know WHERE each of the ingrediants used is originating from and certify them as kosher.