35 Responses

1. We should recognize that specific acts are the problem, not their orientation.

2. mes shabbos..’why did the righteous perish because they didnt protest’,. why did the righteous die by chet hueigel because they dindt protes ..hagaddah kehilos yackov …yes, because we are areivim zeh lazeh we get punished if we dont protest.We vehemntly protest when govt does not give us programs we should get and we vhemently protest when something is done in our communities which shouldnt so the midas hadin says ‘al kevodchem machisem veal kevodi lo mochisem’ and this is the underlying factor why ‘horgos raim vetovim’

3. ..contd from #1… and nobodY come with ‘kiruv’ ‘tinuk shenishba’ becausE this whole toaiva parade business is to taunt and ‘kenimrod gibbor tzeid lifnei hashem’..there are no ‘mechallel shabbos’ parades, there are no ‘eating neveilos treifos’ parade, ‘pro audultery parades’ (not yet). We heard of ‘Thanksgiving parade’..a parade after a country is victorious in a war. a parade when the yanks, mets etc win a game but what is the purpouse of such a parade..so this brings the’ churen af’ of midas hadin on the earths inhabitants. Then people wonder what are these tsunamis, 9/11, kathrinas etc for. and have nerve to ask where is g-d (one of the the evANGELISTS SAID IN ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION “YOU ‘THREW’ G-O OUT OF EVERYWHERE AND THEN YOU ASK WHERE IS G-D”

4. Surrounded by hostile Arabs, who can hardly wait for the opportunity to slaughter them, targeted by more than 10,000 missiles that could wipe them out in minutes, threatened with nuclear holocaust by Iran, these blind fools have nothing better to do than to raise the hand of rebellion against G-D.

   “Liberalism is a mental disease!”

5. #4 – You are right… “Liberalism is a mental disease!”
   The problem IS liberalism!
   The people who want the toeva are sick. It is the liberal psychology organization back in the ’60s that decided that the toeva is not a sickness (as it ALWAYS had been categorized previously) but an “alternate life style”.
   THEY are the most sick ones. No one can fault a person for being sick, but when you say being sick is NOT sick, that THAT is also being normal, THAT is when there is a real serious problem.
   Since then, the attitude that has become accepted in the liberal society is that this sickness is as normal as normal, and that those who disagree are the ones that are sick.
   Just one of many signs that society is on the verge of collapse.

6. Dear Shallowthinker – Liberalism and its overarching committment to personal liberty is why this country was the immigrant magnet it was to our ancestors . . . and personal liberty applies even for those whose personal behavior is to us abhorrent.

   You can’t have it both ways – a tolerant society that protects YOUR religious, social and personal; preferences – but not those of others you find to be immoral . . . for tomorrow, others might find yours to be immoral as well.

   If the majority religion in this country, Christianity, could define the legal limits of moral permissibility you might find bris milah and schita outlawed (and then you’d most certainly scream “Antisemitism,” right?) . . . that all marriages had to be civil – that even rabbinically sanctioned birth control was outlawed – that employment protections for Shabbos observance disappear.

   BUT Christains cannot do that here – because of the legal/social traditions of social Liberalism . . . a tradition that generally prohibits government interference in matter of personal choice, expression and behavior.

   And since you throw around the concept of Liberalism with about as much accuracy as the NYT does with “Judaism” – this is from brief encyclopedic explanation on Wikipedia:

   “Liberalism has its roots in the Age of Enlightenment and rejects many foundational assumptions that dominated most earlier theories of government, such as the Divine Right of Kings, hereditary status, state established religion, and economic protectionism. Instead, it founds itself on the assumption of the equal dignity and worth of individuals. Modern liberal thought originated in and influenced the politics of The Netherlands, the United Kingdom and France. The first modern liberal state was the United States of America, founded on the principle that “all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; based on the writings of English philosopher John Locke, who expressed that “no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions” “that to insure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.”

7. @shimon

   before you finish figuring out what exactly god’s reasons and plans are for different happenings, lets not forget its was hashem who made this attraction,in people,so he obviously had a plan for these people,which has nothing to do with people that dont have it, fight your own battles, not other peoples battles.
   no one who doesnt have this attraction, will be affected by these parades.

8. AinOhdMilvado – Assuming it’s an illness, in your opinion what would that mean for their civil (not religious) rights? And if it is really an illness, wouldn’t that negate much the moral outrage?

   Personally, I find perplexing both their conduct . . . and the ferocity of the protest. Why don’t you get excised about behavior that is a chillul Hashem? Yidden who “wear the uniform” but cheat others publicly, and Yidden who abuse children and bochurim bother me much more than “gay” friers and goyim.

9. YonasanW – First – The “liberalism” you wrote about, and quoted about is NOT the “liberalism” of today.
   In your own quoted comment it says “The first modern liberal state was the United States of America, founded on the principle that “all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator…”
   “ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR”!
   “Liberalism” today would deny there IS a Creator, they forbid mention of Him in the education system, and call those who believe in Him “conservatives”.
   “Liberalism” by today’s American definition is for the most part socialistic and agnostic.
   Second – This article, and “deepthinker”‘s comment were not referring to the United States, they were referring to how we should view what is going on in Eretz Yisrael. Clearly, Am Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael are held by HKB”H to a higher standard, and we are obligated to at least try, to the best of our ability, to implement that higher standard even in the largely secular “Jewish State”.

10. Dear YonasanW (no 6):

    I am definitely impressed by your ability to regurgitate all the liberal propaganda that you have swallowed from the NY Times all these may years.

    Yes, we suffered greatly from the Christians during our 2000 years of exile in Europe, but America is a different kind of Christian country. It was founded by refugees from the intolerance of Europe and by enlightened thinkers, like Benjamin franklin and Thomas Jefferson, who proclaimed that everyone has the right to “Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of happiness.”

    Jews flourished here, despite the fact that America was, officially, a Christian country that followed Christian values, with tolerance for minorities.

    The problems began in the 1960’s, when the spirit of rebellion took hold of America, and there was a revolt against Religion, Motherhood, and the Flag.–It was moral anarchism.

    Now, anything goes: poronography, atheism, Toeva. It is the normal family that is on the defensive, and this is wreaking havoc on our own community.

    You are confusing Toleration for inorities with Libertinism–there is a vast difference.

    Don’t let your mind be so open that your brains fall out!

11. Here’s a prayer that has been seen and approved by HaGaon HaTzaddik R’ Yaakov Meir Shechter, shlita, and Rabbi Aharon Fischer, shlita, (the son of HaGaon R’ Yisroel Yaakov Fischer, zatzal). The Hebrew version was handed out at last year’s counter-demonstration at Kikar Shabbos and well received. Please distribute it as widely as possible.

    בס”ד
    Master of the World, it is known before You that among the participants in the “Shame Parade” are many precious and holy Jewish souls, souls that through our many sins have been trapped among the klipos and been educated to foreign ideologies and practices. Still, the souls You created within those people are pure at their core, and a Jew who has sinned is still a Jew. Our Sages taught us that nothing can stand in the way of someone who wants to repent, and that You do not want sinners to die an eternal death but rather to abandon their wicked ways and merit to eternal life. Now, we know that all Jews are part of one whole, like the various limbs of a complete body, and we therefore beseech and entreat You, our Father in Heaven, to arouse Your infinite mercies for those abject souls and bring them to repent and return to You and lead lives fully in accordance with Your Torah and its commandments. May they all soon fulfill the teaching of our Sages that in the place where penitents stand not even the totally righteous can stand. (And even though our Sages have taught that everything is in the hands of Heaven except for the fear of Heaven, still the Chazon Ish, zatzal, pointed out that this does not necessarily mean that the sinner himself has to want to repent, but only that someone in this world has to entreat You to arouse him to repent, as Rebbe Meir asked You to bring a group of hooligans who lived near him back to You, and his prayers were effective and they did actually repent.) Therefore, Master of the World, we beg and entreat You, to arouse Your infinite mercies on all these trapped souls and to rescue them from the fate that awaits such sinners, as we have seen that many of them have actually abandoned their ways and returned to a life of Torah observance, and through this have sanctified Your Holy Name in the greatest possible fashion.
    בס”ד
    Master of the World, it is known before You that among the participants in the “Shame Parade” are many precious and holy Jewish souls, souls that through our many sins have been trapped among the klipos and been educated to foreign ideologies and practices. Still, the souls You created within those people are pure at their core, and a Jew who has sinned is still a Jew. Our Sages taught us that nothing can stand in the way of someone who wants to repent, and that You do not want sinners to die an eternal death but rather to abandon their wicked ways and merit to eternal life. Now, we know that all Jews are part of one whole, like the various limbs of a complete body, and we therefore beseech and entreat You, our Father in Heaven, to arouse Your infinite mercies for those abject souls and bring them to repent and return to You and lead lives fully in accordance with Your Torah and its commandments. May they all soon fulfill the teaching of our Sages that in the place where penitents stand not even the totally righteous can stand. (And even though our Sages have taught that everything is in the hands of Heaven except for the fear of Heaven, still the Chazon Ish, zatzal, pointed out that this does not necessarily mean that the sinner himself has to want to repent, but only that someone in this world has to entreat You to arouse him to repent, as Rebbe Meir asked You to bring a group of hooligans who lived near him back to You, and his prayers were effective and they did actually repent.) Therefore, Master of the World, we beg and entreat You, to arouse Your infinite mercies on all these trapped souls and to rescue them from the fate that awaits such sinners, as we have seen that many of them have actually abandoned their ways and returned to a life of Torah observance, and through this have sanctified Your Holy Name in the greatest possible fashion.

    בס”ד
    Master of the World, it is known before You that among the participants in the “Shame Parade” are many precious and holy Jewish souls, souls that through our many sins have been trapped among the klipos and been educated to foreign ideologies and practices. Still, the souls You created within those people are pure at their core, and a Jew who has sinned is still a Jew. Our Sages taught us that nothing can stand in the way of someone who wants to repent, and that You do not want sinners to die an eternal death but rather to abandon their wicked ways and merit to eternal life. Now, we know that all Jews are part of one whole, like the various limbs of a complete body, and we therefore beseech and entreat You, our Father in Heaven, to arouse Your infinite mercies for those abject souls and bring them to repent and return to You and lead lives fully in accordance with Your Torah and its commandments. May they all soon fulfill the teaching of our Sages that in the place where penitents stand not even the totally righteous can stand. (And even though our Sages have taught that everything is in the hands of Heaven except for the fear of Heaven, still the Chazon Ish, zatzal, pointed out that this does not necessarily mean that the sinner himself has to want to repent, but only that someone in this world has to entreat You to arouse him to repent, as Rebbe Meir asked You to bring a group of hooligans who lived near him back to You, and his prayers were effective and they did actually repent.) Therefore, Master of the World, we beg and entreat You, to arouse Your infinite mercies on all these trapped souls and to rescue them from the fate that awaits such sinners, as we have seen that many of them have actually abandoned their ways and returned to a life of Torah observance, and through this have sanctified Your Holy Name in the greatest possible fashion.
    בס”ד
    Master of the World, it is known before You that among the participants in the “Shame Parade” are many precious and holy Jewish souls, souls that through our many sins have been trapped among the klipos and been educated to foreign ideologies and practices. Still, the souls You created within those people are pure at their core, and a Jew who has sinned is still a Jew. Our Sages taught us that nothing can stand in the way of someone who wants to repent, and that You do not want sinners to die an eternal death but rather to abandon their wicked ways and merit to eternal life. Now, we know that all Jews are part of one whole, like the various limbs of a complete body, and we therefore beseech and entreat You, our Father in Heaven, to arouse Your infinite mercies for those abject souls and bring them to repent and return to You and lead lives fully in accordance with Your Torah and its commandments. May they all soon fulfill the teaching of our Sages that in the place where penitents stand not even the totally righteous can stand. (And even though our Sages have taught that everything is in the hands of Heaven except for the fear of Heaven, still the Chazon Ish, zatzal, pointed out that this does not necessarily mean that the sinner himself has to want to repent, but only that someone in this world has to entreat You to arouse him to repent, as Rebbe Meir asked You to bring a group of hooligans who lived near him back to You, and his prayers were effective and they did actually repent.) Therefore, Master of the World, we beg and entreat You, to arouse Your infinite mercies on all these trapped souls and to rescue them from the fate that awaits such sinners, as we have seen that many of them have actually abandoned their ways and returned to a life of Torah observance, and through this have sanctified Your Holy Name in the greatest possible fashion.

    בס”ד
    נא להתפלל תפלה קצרה זו

    רבונו של עולם, גלוי וידוע לפניך שבין המשתתפים בעצרת התועבה יש הרבה נשמות קדושות של יהודים יקרים מאד, נשמות שבעוונותינו הרבים נפלו בין הקליפות ר”ל, תנוקות שנשבו בין האומות, אבל בכל זאת הנשמות שבראת בהם טהורות הן ואע”פ שחטאו ישראלים הם ואין דבר שעומד בפני התשובה, ואין אתה חפץ במות המת כי אם בשובו מדרכו וחיה, ובהיות שכל ישראל ערבים זה בזה עלינו להתחנן לפניך אבינו שבשמים שתחוס ותרחם על הנשמות האומללות האלו ותחתור חתירה מתחת כסא כבודך ותחזירם בתשובה שלמה לפניך שיקבלו כולם עליהם עול מלכות שמים בלבב שלם ובקרוב יקוים בהם מה שאמרו חכמינו זכרונם לברכה במקום שבעלי תשובה עומדים אין צדיקים גמורים יכולים לעמוד, ואע”פ שאמרו חז”ל שהכל בידי שמים חוץ מיראת שמים, הלא דייק על זה בעל החזון איש זי”ע שאינו מוכרח שהחוטא בעצמו צריך להתעורר לחזור אליך רק שאין זה בידי שמים דווקא אלא שאם מישהו פה בארץ יבקש עליו רחמים אז אתה מרחם עליו ומעורר אותו לחזור אליך, וכמו שבקש ר’ מאיר רחמים על הנהו בריוני דהוו בשבבותיה והדרו בתשובה, ולכן הנני לבקש שיתעוררו רחמיך האינסופיים על כל הנשמות האלו שאפשר להצילן מבאר שחת ושתחזירם בתשובה שלימה לפניך (וכמו כן לשאר חוטאי ישראל), וכמו שהרבה מהם כבר שבו אליך וחיים היום חיים של קדושה וטהרה ועי”ז מקדשים שמיך באופן הכי גדול, אמן נצח סלה ועד.

12. YonasonW:

    You are correct in theory. Indeed anyone and everyone can lead their life in any way they deem appropriate. I agree.

    But I ask you this. If you were to observe a person defecate in the middle of the street as part of a religious practice, would you voice your concerns, or would you opine that it’s the individual’s personal choice and they are exercising the right to do what they please?

    Of course, you’ll immediately reply that my examples are against the law, while the parade isn’t. Well, frankly, the courts shouldn’t be able to decide that defecating in the street is immoral – in spite of “Liberalism”, while marching down Yerushalayim almost naked celebrating their mentally disturbed way of living is not immoral. The government’s policies on these matters cannot be our guide to morality.

    The answer to all of this (and I think Shimen was saying this), in my humble opinion, is simple. Indeed everyone has the inherent right to do what they please, but not to cram their rights down our throats! They wish to commit perverted and disgusting acts? Fine, so be it. But they needn’t celebrate it by intentionally parading their filth down our streets knowing very well that it’s a terrible offense to the rest of the people. They are performing this parade for this express purpose – to offend, taunt, and insult the rest of us.

    I’m certain that you would vehemently protest a “Defecators R’ Us” parade down your block.

13. If I were an askan I would suggest that a 3 mile square area, a couple of blocks away from the parade, be prepared to receive thousands of havroutots to study outside as a silent protest and against this toumah. The media will show 10 thousand bahourim studying outisde in an orderly fashion and 10 thousand half naked men dressed up as woman flaunting themselves like animals. That will be a kiddoush hashem

14. Your argument YonasonW is what helps NAMBLA to promote their agenda.

15. #7 there is nothing what figure out. these were the words of the holy tzaddikim of our generatin and the generation before the churben.including the chafetz chaim’ i know that for an assimilated ‘jew’ like you its hard to digest…but get yourself a english translation of the torah and concentrate on devorim (deturonomy in your language) and see for yourself..again the rambam, gemmorrah says if one thinks these calamities are just happenstance hes apikorus..’ein adom nokaiv etzboah milmatah ale….gosrin alof milmaleh’ yes i heard myself from tzaddikum of our privious generation that the the chubun came as a result of the maskilum (your kind of ‘jews’) made a chubin on the klall yisroel whether you like it or not. the divrei yoel in the hakdame of vyoel moshe adds another reason. and dont worry your little head about my avairos. yes, ehrlicher yidden whenever they had just a little mishap , like tripping etc they stop and made a din vecheshbom with themselves what they did to deserve it and such a churbin you assimilated jew will say it just happened

16. YonasanW – You wrote: “Assuming it’s an illness, in your opinion what would that mean for their civil (not religious) rights? And if it is really an illness, wouldn’t that negate much the moral outrage?”

    Because someone is acting improperly (or illegally) because of an illness (especially when THEY are calling it “normal”, or their “nature”) it does not excuse or permit their actions, nor does it do anything to minimize the outrage of society.
    Perhaps kleptomaniacs should say “Nature (or G-d) made us this way, therefore you can’t fault us! We are proud of being kleptomaniacs! We are going to have a kleptomaniac pride parade to show how we are as good as everyone else!”
    The first thing that must be done when one has a disease, (just like the first thing that must be done when one wants to do teshuva for an avaira) is to recognize that they have a disease (or have done an avaira). To say that a person that has sick desires is NOT sick, but is normal, is the clear way to assure they will have absolutely zero chance of recovery.

17. #7 your words are pure heresy..’hashem made these attractions in people’ i just dont understand how such kfirah is allowed on this ehrliche shomer torah site. hashem in the 15 chivey krises he has mishkav zochor ‘ and you come and say he changed his mind….!!!

    and if someone has attraction to steal, adultry when all parties concent etc why shuoldnt it be allowed…i can go on and on but there is no end to divrei have ureus ruach

    11

18. #17,

    the attraction exsists whether u like it or not,and YES hashem created the attraction,just like he created everything else,there is no issur against being attracted to men,its an issur to act upon it.Why hashem created this attraction i have no idea,but im sure theres a reason,after all everything he does is for a reason right?
    as far as kfirah is concerned,id say its kfirah to say hashem DIDNT create this attraction,are u honestly saying there exsists a form of human nature,that hashem hasnt created, and make NO mistake its IS a form of human nature, and like i said before,worry about your own nisyonos, not the ones hashem gave to others, be happy he didnt give this nisoyon to you,and try to feel compassion, instead of hatred, which you seem to be filled of for these people, or at least pity…

19. #16 i dont want to get all technical here,but the only issue i have with your statement is, that there is no recovery for this,its like someone thats born without a hand, are we supposed to say,im sure theres a way for him to put on tefillin,lets not give him a pass, he should find a cure,in a way its the same with this situation, there is NO “cure” for such desires,you will have them your whole life,are we to say its a sickness, and therefore these people are sick, or are we to say thats its a type of handicap that their born with,and they need to figure out the best way to serve hashem,With their handicap?

    my point is,let them be,if you dont have this attraction,then any form of “pride” etc. wont have an affect on you,it simply isnt your call,leave them be,let them deal with their nisyonos on their own,do we REALLY have to protest them like criminals,and parasites,when it has nothing to do with us?

    and for the people who say “this will affect out children!” it wont, no person can be TAUGHT attractions,either you have it or you dont.

20. To: Gematria:
    The ikar issue is NOT the “attraction”, it’s how one deals with the attraction.
    Yes, it IS a difficult nisayon, no question about that.
    But, that does not mean one has a heter to fail at the nisayon.
    People have attractions to do all kinds of things that are wrong, and that the Torah forbids.
    If some people were not “attracted” to these wrong behaviors, there would be no need for the Torah to forbid them. Clearly, HKB”H recognized that there are people with strong desires to do acts that are not acceptable behaviors, and that is why He asur-ed those behaviors.
    It is not for a person to say or think, well, HaSh-m obviously gave me this powerful need and desire to (for example) steal, therefore He must have wanted me to steal. No, He gave you a nisayon. He gave you a strong desire and k’neged it, He gave a Torah law prohibiting acting on that desire.
    Now, as the expression goes… the ball is in your court.

21. #20

    All your points are valid,but the bottom line is,its not the job of people who arent connected to this nisoyon to be involved in any way in the nisyon to begin with,

    you say

    “Clearly, HKB”H recognized that there are people with strong desires to do acts that are not acceptable behaviors, and that is why He asur-ed those behaviors.”

    since when do you KNOW what HKB”H had in mind,when he assured this,

    my point is,this a lonnng debate ,that can go on and on,
    i mean you can go back and debate what the actual issur is,but im not getting into that,its not the time and place,

    the point im trying to make is,dont get involved for personal reasons,IE hatred,etc. etc.,besides the obvious chillul hashem of bashing these people, since they look down on chareidies even more than before,and like someone said they are tinuk shenishba,so your definitely not teaching them anything by protesting,

    lets get real here,half the bashing of these people,comes from the simple fact that people are disgusted by them, and i doubt its because people are concerned about the issur,for example one of the above posters,whos practically spewing venom,and hatred at people with the attraction(which includes frum yidden),i personally doubt hes THAT concerned with the halacha aspect,its more about the sentiment of what they stand for,

22. #21 lets stop beating around the bush this whole pipul shel havel of yours and like minded is not shayech. As if these deviants are shomer kol hatorah bechol prutayhu, shabbos, kashruth, yom tov,taharas hamispacha or any of taryag but this one aveirah they have nisyon…these people reject in the relvation misini, are kofer bechol hatorah so just like they are oiver bechol hatorah so this toaiveh…tinik shenishba, ahavs yiroel, lashan horah excuses will not be accepted by us …and thats the halacha see my other posts

23. #22

    its not really up to you to “accept” anyone,its a matter of halacha,

    yes tinuk shinishba DOES apply,because they were brought up without ANY of the forementioned halachos,so yes it applies to all of the above mitzvos,

    but thats not the issue i have with you,the issue is how you attack people with this attraction,as af its a crime their committing by being like that,even if they dont act upon it,that doesnt matter to you,you are full of hatred for these people,you need to work on yourself instead of bashing people who are doing things which may or may not be wrong (whether its wrong or not isnt the point,so stop with your kfirah attacks)especially since it has no affect on you whatsoever,

    i also notice how you havent responded to any of my points i made against you….

    but yes i understand where your coming from,you were taught well…

24. #23 compared to you i have nothing to work on…you are avoiding the issues you did not refute anything we mentioned.. i did not see your kanoes when issues of separate seating in busses articles , support of education al tahara hakodes etc etc..then you yelled ‘racism’ you were always on the side of you know where(kat acher) so this prooves our point where you stand and come from..to make it short ‘oizvei torah yehalle rasha veshomrei torah yisgeru bom’ vehamavin yovin

25. #23

    wow you just wrote me off as if you know me,how do you know what i protested???

    moetzi shem ra isnt a good look for you..

    as for avoiding the issue,on the contrary im actually discussing the issue from a pint of view,that doesnt just include hate filled rants against other yidden,with nothing really to prove other than the fact that you cant stand other people with other issues,that doesnt fit into your perfect world,

26. to #23 even though these people might be tinokei shenishba that doesnt mean we should allow disgusting actions to be done in the holiest city of the world. we are not spewing hatred against people with taavos that control them, we are against people who are flaunting their taavos in public in middle of a frum neighborhood. we would also be against people flaunting adultry in public too

27. #26

    yes i get that your against public indecency,
    but if u read some of the comments here, its quite a bit more than that…

    there is a Bias against people with these attractions, which they have no control over.

    And claims such as “this is why hashem does this” is just ridiculous.

28. #27 you did not answer #3…

29. #28 theres nothing to answer,i hear your point,the question is if they made a bacon tasting parade would you protest as much,

    i highly doubt it,i agree the parade shouldn’t be there,but i think the reason many of you protest this point so much more fiercely than other issues, is a personal bias, and hatred against these people,

    and again you are not one to say why hashem does things,or what cause what, and i find it funny that yo use an evangelist quote to make a point,when you called what i said kfirah…

30. #29 i do not say my own things what ever i say is drived from torah .and you come with secular psychiarist anti torah views.. anyway if you can say (#23) on one of the 36 cheivey krisos that hashem gave on mount sini to klall yisroel and most of them for the gentiles to, see sanhedrin 59a and say ‘may or not be wrong’ so no wonder. what are you doing commenting on a site that is for believers..you say i hate them. I dont and if yes so be it that doesnt answer my pointers . l have no safug your oiver this too the way your so overboard of defending thier practice.

    you say(#29) ‘if they would be chazer eaters and were parading kenimrod gobor tzaid lifneu hashem we wouldt protest’ your living with your head in the sand. look at the protest we do when chilli shabbos is involved. then you non belivers yell mind you business, israel is democracy, go back to poland, aushvits(yes thats what plenty of your friends yelled, so haknit kein chinik that you haVE RACHManIS AND, AS I POINTED OUT MANY TIMES, WE NOT DEALIONG HERE WHTH SHOMREI TORAH who just have this taveh these are people, andi i have chashad your also from such crowed who dont beoieve in torah misini and dont obsreve antything and you come as if they are nebech shyfelech who just this one desire they cant control

31. #30 wow you amaze me,

    first off im not “one Of Them” as you put it,my friends actually protested against chillul shabbos,

    what “secular psychology” have i brought here,your ramblings are ridiculous bordering on insane,

    you just accused 2 people that you dont know at all,of being oiver on things,which if you had a tayva for you probably wouldnt last a day without,

    to be honest i actually have this attraction,but i have NEVER acted upon it,which is probably more than you can say for your tayvos,

    instead of ranting on forums, “In the name of hashem”,i suggest you go and learn more about a topic called “being adam lchaverio”, something you CLEARLY know nothing about.

    as for having an intelligent discussion with you,its seems impossible, since you are so quick to accuse everyone of being shgotzim…

    just wow…

32. #31 please dont include me with your kind as ‘bein adam lehaveiroh ‘kesher rashouim toaivah….’

33. #32

    you really are a fool,like i said ive never acted on my desire,so you have no right to call me anything,

    anyway now i understand why the beis hamikdash was destroyed,because of people like you,

    its as clear as day..

34. #33 i dont thing your from those people who care much about the bais hamikdosh

35. #34 well then i guess we have something in common 😉