14 Responses

1. The Meraglim were also *afraid and said that we should not go into Eretz Yisroel.

   *(Afraid of the “giants” in the land who will see us as grasshoppers and crush us? Or were/are they Afraid that they will lose their “Control” and “power”?)

2. I am deeply confused by the whole issue. When I was a young man it was considered ossur for a Jew to go to Har haBayis and daven there. Were the Gedolim of my time mistaken? Even the Zionist Rabbanim (I attended Midrashiyat Noam in Pardes Chana, under Rav Yagel, z”l) who supported taking back all of Eretz Yisroel would never have gone up to Har Habayit: WHAT CHANGED IN THE HALACHA?

3. I think it has to become a non visit area for anyone.we don’t go, and nobody else goes up either.

   As simple as that

4. To #2: what changed is the level of impudence and am ha’artzus in the world. People who are not closely associated with עמל התורה and עיון הלכה think that it’s sufficient to unearth some sefer, any sefer, preferably authored by someone who lived a few hundred years ago, who even just “seems to allow” something the impudent person (can sometimes even be a “rabbi”), and voila, we have “an authoritative psak halacha” tailored to the preconceived notions of the “rabbi” or the politician. Many provocative and controversial nationalist “piskei halacha” have, over the years, been generated in this fashion. Such matters like reciting a brachah on Hallel on yom ha’atzmaut, taking out a Sefer Torah and reading from it with a brachah on said day, etc. To name a few. It’s interesting because many in these groups disdain the learning in the more traditional (“black hat”) yeshivas as being “golus-mentality” type learning (“pilpul,” i.e., iyun) and paskening. Many of them seem to yearn for a “derech limud” that is more in tune with “beginnings of the flowering of our redemption,” meaning finding ways to make compromises in halacha that could at least appear to be acceptable within the gamut of halachic opinion. Shlomo Goren did something similar with his infamous psak in the mamzer case in the early 1970s when he was appointed (sorry, elected) chief rabbi. BTW, it was at this point that Rav Elyashiv zt”l left the Supreme Rabbinical Council, the “supreme court” of the Israeli Rabbanut. Of course, the truth is a Talmid Chacham analyzes the statements of any “shitta” within the context of the relevant sugyas in Shas. Especially if the sefer in question or its author are not well known in the world of learning or halacha. This investigative analysis is a difficult and time-consuming process. This is why not just any “rabbi” who obtained semicha can or should pasken, or more specifically מכריע halachos, particularly in matters in which there is little or no precedent. After all, what does it take to get semicha? A year of learning, passing an exam, and presto, we have a duly constituted “posek” who is qualified to מכריע halachic questions. This is a complete misunderstanding of the entire matter. To decide, to מכריע halacha, requires decades of toiling in Torah learning and שימוש חכמים. And even then, only a select few Talmidei Chachamim in every generation are really qualified to “create new piskei halacha,” similar to rulings issued by Rav Chaim Ozer, the Chafetz Chaim, the Chazon Ish, Rav Moshe, or Rav Elyashiv, zecher tzadikim ve’kedoshim le’bracha. To name just a few who lived closer to our times. There were others as well. But one thing for sure. It never includes a person who merely studied Yoreh Deah for a year or two and got semicha. Bottom line, the top orthopedic doctors all know who among them is the biggest expert. Le’havdil, the top Torah scholars in every generation all know who among them is the biggest expert. It is not a matter for ba’alei batim, or even for yeshiva bochurim to decide. Halacha is not a trivial matter to be decided on whims, or based upon any extraneous considerations, nationalist or otherwise. Just a pure Torah decision that emanates from a pure Torah mind.

5. To my American yerushalmi brother

   Aseh lecha Rav thats what counts but please have some respect for the gaonim in the dati leumi world. Its probably very hard for you as a yerushalmi yeshiva bochur to accept that G-d has chosen the chilonim to bring about our redemption. If you look very closely you will see that we are no longer a secular state and in fact are growing more and more religious. Close to half the Knesset is Shomrei Shabbes. There are over 1million chozrei be teshuva in Eretz Yisrael.

   Look beyond how someone looks on the outside – look on the inside. This is the essence of veahavta leracha camocha. These are the teachings of the lubavitcher rebbe and rav kook. remarkably similar. Interesting that chabadniks do the army in Israel because even though the army is not perfect, the state is not perfect they are simply practicing Love your fellow Jew. They recognise the miracles around us. Maybe you cant see it.

   I respect the daas torah of rav shteinman, kanievsky, etc and i sugggest you also respect the daas torah of the gaonim in the dati leumi world. Aseh lecha rav. Dont knock the other valid opinions

6. Like the Rambam who was as tamei meis as the next guy

7. #4 Impressive .

   Still it is less simple

   Chazon Ish
   chiddushim at the end of Meseches Eruvin.

   “נראה דכל שנכנס לצורך תיקון אינו כלל באיסור כניסה בטמא. שאיסור הכניסה כשהוא טמא, הוא מפני כבוד המקדש, ומראה שאינו נרתע מפני קדושתו. אבל כשנכנס לצורך תיקון אינו בכלל זה”.

   iirc,

   When r. Shlomo Goren visited L.A., R’ Moshe Feinstein proclaimed that no rabbinic kavod should be shown to him.

   [The relatively liberal] HaRav Yaakov Ariel was quoted a couple days ago:

   “A rav must know how to give a psak, which is a great deal more than studying Torah and being familiar with it. One wishing to become a posek must do shimush at the side of Gedolei Yisrael and Gedolei Torah to learn the Halachos and not just receive semicha”.

8. Chardalnik,

   Did

   G-d has choose the chilonim to bring about our redemption

   Or possibly the opposite

   Those who opposed chiloni and chiloni-lite internal influences,has been what brought about, and thereby will continue bringing us towards our redemption

9. The current protocol regarding Jews accessing Har Habais is not based on halacha. It happens to conveniently conform to the poskim who assur going onto har habais, but is is not based on halacha. The ruling of the kinesset will not change or in any way make a statement about the halachic status of going onto har habais. This is primarily a political statement stating that democracy should prevail on har habais just like it does anywhere else. no civil law prevents an arab from entering the kosel, no civil law should prevent a Jew from entering har habais.

10. To #5: Your disjointed reply exactly reinforces what I wrote. You choose to ignore all of my points, saying “yes, yes, yes, but you have to practice “ve’ahavta le’re’acha kamocha.” Loving your fellow Jew does not mean staring at the darkness and pretending it’s light. At evil and pretending it’s righteousness. “Aseh lecha rav” doesn’t mean I am allowed to follow the dictates of a guy who sells tomatoes in the shuk . . . It means among the qualified rabbonim, make one of them YOUR rav. Undertake to follow his directives. You mention the “geonim” of the dati leumi world.” Who decided that they are geonim? And BTW, as you well know, the dati’im leumi’im themselves often disobey these geonim. It takes one to know one as they say. It’s not a matter for you or for me to decide. As I wrote, the experts in the field are the ones who know who among them is the greatest expert. It is not in the purview of, say, some Bnei Akiva leader to decide who is a rav and who is a gaon. So, yes, I agree that we must endeavor to love all Jews, even those who are completely estranged from Torah. But, we cannot and must not pervert the words, the halachos contained in our holy Torah.
    Incidentally, what did the first Rav Kook zt”l hold about going up to the Har Habayis (the original topic of discussion)? Think about that.

11. To American yeushalmi: Here is what our great achronim had to say about pilpul: רוב הרבנים התנגדו לשיטת החילוקים.

    מהר”ל מפראג בדרושו על התורה אמר:
    “שאותם המעמידים עיקר הלימוד על פלפולים מעשה חדודים, הם מגלים פנים בתורה ומכלים זמן בשקר, ויותר טוב היה להם ללמוד נגרות

    בעל השל”ה בספרו (מסכת שבועות) כתב:
    “חבל על דאבדין מה שהוצאתי רוב ימי בחילוקים גדולים ונפלאים, חטאתי עויתי פשעתי. על כן באתי להזהיר הדורות הבאים…”
    “והנה ראיתי כת משוגעים האומרים החילוק מחדד, האומר כן ראוי לנזיפה… כשנעשה
    מחודד מה עושה בחדודו הלא אין חדודו אלא שמבלה ימיו בדבר הזה.”

    הרב חיים בכרך בחוות יאיר כתב:
    “ואם לי אתה ובקולי תשמע, אל יבלה בנך זמנו בחילוקים ובחריפות של הבל”.

    Why not use Darcei hagemarah by Rav yitchok Konponton 1360- 1463, a Rishon who authored a book on how to learn Gemarah that the Shlah and Chazon ish highly recommend. It is the only book written how to learn Gemarah. This great sefer whose author taught the Rebbe of the Bais yosef will lead you to the truth.

    Ironically, Rav Yisroel Ariel of `Machon Hamikdash is a huge chasid of this sefer and has based his entire approach to learning and Halachah on this unique sefer.

12. It is not a simple matter. There are two sides: the Halachic and the pragmatic. The Halachic one itself is very complicated. But even IF a case could be made for the Heter, one must consider the big picture. It seems for many to boil down to nationalistic concerns vs. security concerns. Based on the Sugyos at the end of Kesubos, most Poskim do not even consider TRYING to find a Heter, since the Arabs find it incendiary, and when in Galus we are enjoined not to incite the Goyim. Those who primarily view the situation as the beginning of the Geulas are not bound by such concerns, and on the contrary, view this as a signature issue in our sovereign right to our country, Hence the great divide.

13. I fail to understand something here. Har Habayis belongs to us, not to the Arabs, Jordan, the Waqf, or any other non-Jew. No one else besides Israeli Jews should have any jurisdiction over that area.

    There is a halacha issue here regarding entry to the location. I personally accept the rulings of the major poskim of this and previous generations who proclaim it is ossur. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Muslims, their feelings, or anything else. It is intolerable that a Jew, whose posek permits entry to the Har Habayis, cannot do as he wishes. He is to be guided by halacha, nothing else.

    What am I missing?

14. @ydmoscow.. the current protocol is not based on halacha. However one major point you are overlooking is that the reason for the protocol and the reason for the halacha are the same!….what a day when the knesset and the gedolei Hadar come to the same conclusion for the same exact reason. Call it protocol call it halacha or just call it what it is LOGIC! and surprise surprise who are the only one not agreeing….even the Arabs agree!!!…..botomline these people don’t want to go up to Har habayis because they miss g-d or want to get close to him. There are plenty other ways to do that that don’t involve getting your brothers killed and any person who steps foot there is doing so for his own selfish reasons. Would you walk in Harlem with a sign that said “I hate N%÷@rs”..Bruce Willis wouldn’t unless there was a gun to his head.enough said…