By Rabbi Yair Hoffman
THE CASE
As the school year ends, many Yeshivos and Bais Yaakovs wish to take their talmidim or talmidos upstate to the Catskill mountains for a Shabbos and weekend retreat. They are told about a wonderful camp with outstanding food service – the finest in glatt kosher cuisine. The school and students are very excited.
When they arrive, however, things are not what had been promised them. There is not enough food to go around. It seems that the food service staff had ordered less food than was necessary – in an effort to save or make money.
At meal number one, when they first arrived, the writing was on the wall. The lack of adequate food supply, the dismal food preparations, and the lack of kitchen personnel, were readily seen. People had already gotten sick from the food at meal #1, which was spoiled.
Some of the food served at meal number two was also spoiled. Indeed, there was not a room where everyone was healthy – at least one person was sick in each of the rooms or bunkhouses.
It was so bad that half a dozen of the students had to be hospitalized. The teachers had brought babies, but there were no cribs as promised. A few of the older staff members were promised that there would be provisions and adequate food for spouses who were diabetic. There wasn’t.
THE OWNERS RESPOND
The camp owners wanted the students to pay. They stated their case:
“Granted there were some issues and misunderstandings. However, you did remain at the camp over Shabbos when you had ample time to go back home. This constitutes acceptance and you are fully obligated to pay.”
The camp owners claimed that they had asked their Rabbi who allegedly said that the laws of Choshain Mishpat in Chapter 232 are clear. He allegedly ruled that the decision on the part of the students to stay indicates that it is not a Mekach Taus, an erroneous transaction, and that the bills must, first and foremost, be paid in full. Should the camp wish to refund any moneys later, that is up to either them or their Poskim, but that all moneys had to be paid first.
Some parents were so upset that they instructed their credit card companies not to pay and they disputed the payment.
SO WHAT IS THE HALACHA?
What would be the Halacha in such a case?
It must be emphasized, of course, that Rabbonim and Poskim should not rule on cases without hearing both sides of a dispute. What they can do is answer, “Given these facts, in this situation, the following Halacha is true.” However, if there is a slight change in the details, such as blank or blank, it is clear that this ruling no longer applies.” This disclaimer should be given as a matter of course whenever a matter of Choshain Mishpat is discussed.
The ever so small change in a detail could make a world of a difference. This author once asked a major Posaik about a statement that he had ostensibly made regarding a similar case. The Posaik responded, “No one had ever mentioned to me the detail of spoiled food.”
THE PRINCIPLE OF MUCHZAK
One of the most important aspects of the adjudication of financial disputes lies in the issue of “Muchzak” – who is the person holding onto the money. The notion of “possession is nine tenths of the law” applies in Halacha as well as, lehavdil, secular law. Indeed, it may even carry more weight in Torah law. Let’s keep this idea in mind.
THE LAW REGARDING OVERCHARGING
The Shulchan Aruch does seem to say that acceptance and continued use of the item would constitute a Mechila, an acceptance of the sale. However, the issue is not so clear. The Pischei Teshuva (CM 332:1) writes that in a case of Onaah, overcharging, even if the overcharge was more that 17%, if he informed the seller and used the item afterward – we do not say that he forgave the excess charge. Rather, the buyer is obligated to pay the owner what he had used up or he is obligated to pay the value of the loss that he caused the owner through use of the item if the buyer wishes to cancel the item.
THE LAW REGARDING DEFECTIVE ITEMS
While this is true in regard to overcharging, does the same concept apply when the item has a defect? The Machane Efraim (Chapter Five of Dinei Onaah also cited in the Pischei Teshuvah) rules that it does. He writes that if there is a defect in the sale and he informed the seller and subsequently used it, he can still go back.
Yes, but do we rule like this Pischei Teshuvah and Machane Efraim? That’s where the idea of Muchzak – possession comes in. If someone has not yet paid, it seems clear that he or she would be fully in their rights to follow the view cited in the Pischei Teshuvah. If they already did pay, it is not so clear. The Ramah (and the Rivash cited) in chapter 327 of Choshain Mishpat indicate as well that acceptance does not constitute Mechilah.
THEY MUST STILL PAY FOR THE ROOM
There is no question, however, that the use of the room must still be paid for regardless. In the theoretical case of a high end camp, the going rate for a room is about $160 without the cost of the food service. We also see the idea of the partial payment in the Gemorah in Bava Basra (146b) where the price of the sold item was knocked down by 1/3 because of a similar issue.
CREDIT CARD PAYMENTS
What about a credit card payment? Can a person cancel such a payment or does that constitute theft on the part of the parent? In other words, when one pays by credit card who is the Muchzak (person in legal possession) of the funds that were already paid?
In 1975, the Fair Credit Billing Act (FCBA) was passed as Federal Law amending the Truth in Lending Act of 1968. It was designed to protect consumers using a credit card from seven different areas:
1] Charges not actually made by the consumer
2] Charges in the wrong amount
3] Charges for goods or services not received by the consumer
4] Charges for goods not delivered as agreed
5] Charges for goods that were damaged on delivery
6] Failures to properly reflect payments or credits to an account
7] Calculation errors and other issues involving mailings
It is important to note that the FCBA credit card dispute rules and rights do not apply if you are disputing the quality of goods and services. Purchasing defective product is not aa “billing error.”
So far, it seems that if one paid already by credit card it would be forbidden to have the company reverse the charges. (As a general note, one should always communicate in writing as well whenever dealing with a credit card company, but that is a different issue.)
There is also a time limit on credit card disputes of within 60 days after the very first bill was generated. The credit card company launches an investigation within 30 days of receiving word of a person’s dispute. It must resolve all issues within 90 days.
If they find in the seller’s favor the purchaser can still appeal, but must do so within 10 days of receiving the ruling.
According to the law, if it is a matter regarding the quality of the item purchased, a dispute may still be lodged if three requirements are met: 1] The price is $50 or more 2] It was made within 100 miles of your address or within your own state and 3] you made a “good faith effort” to resolve the problem with the seller.
Of course, every consumer should ask their Rav or Posaik regarding credit cards but, it seems to this author, that since the retailer signed onto the terms of this agreement with the credit card company, the retailer would not halachically be considered a muchzak on the moneys to the point where the charges cannot be disputed. Should the retailer succeed in winning the case with the credit card company after the 90 day period then he subsequently becomes the Muchzak on the funds and would therefore be entitled to any appropriate halachic stances and positions.
SEEK WHAT’S RIGHT – NOT TO WIN
There is a fascinating Sifsei Chachomim in Parshas Shoftim on the Rashi fo Tzedek Tzedek Tirdof. He indicates that it is important to note that whenever a financial dispute arises we must never seek to win. Yes, winning is not what we should be pursuing. We must rather seek that true Tzedek be adjudicated here, regardless of which side we are on. If we can reach this point in our disputes, it may help resolve the bigger problem of this long Galus bevias goel tzedek bim’heira beyameinu. Amain!
The author can be reached at [email protected].
Some readers may be wondering whether this was actual case. The answer is that it was, however, critical details were changed so as not to embarrass people, and it transpired years ago.
13 Responses
The picture of spoiled Strawberries is a Bad example.
As they can not be eaten even if they were fresh, because of bug Infestation.
Cleaning Strawberries are not suffice, as the Bugs go beneath the seeds.
The article fails to address offsets. Isn’t the camp responsible for the damages it caused all those who became sick?
I also find it a little funny that certain people feel they can pontificate about issues they know little about. One day he is a salad chef (although by the look of him he is not really a big salad fan) the next day he is a lawyer the next day he is a doctor. Funny.
The picture of spoiled Strawberries is a Good example.
They can be eaten if they were fresh, according to Harav Moshe Heinemann of the Star-K, and other poskim. They hold that strawberries must first be thoroughly soaked in water and detergent and then the tops should be cut off.
The picture of the spoiled strawberries is a good example to show a b”D
The story is not a good example in that it’s quite likely that a number of the issues (such as inadequate or spoiled food) would not be discovered until after Shabbos had started – at which point, the guests are stuck, with no way of leaving. Also, the place is marketed as a “package deal” – the rooms, the food, and the overall ambiance come together, and if the food is really as described, it would make the rest of the package essentially worthless. As they say “Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play”?
an Israeli Yid
Phil, this is one of the reasons strawberries should not be eaten.
Although many experts believe they cannot be cleaned, the Star-K does have a process they believe works.
HOWEVER, you quoted the process incorrectly and you are missing some steps. We are dealing here with severe prohibitions. You should stay up-to-date if you really want to eat these things.
Those strawberries came out of a bag that had the finest hechsherim attesting to their bug free status. Despite that, they spoiled 🙁
Missing a few stepsIf the people already came there and then realized the problem they can’t leave as they have no food for shabbos or can’t make it back on time that’s not accepting the food or the lodgings.
I’m always amazed how every posek hador posts comments on Yeshiva World.
Why don’t you all leave it to those that actually know what they’re talking about?
SEEK WHAT’S RIGHT I hereby nominate Dayan Chaim Kohn shlita & his Business Institute of Halacha to sort out who owes money to whom etc. and agree to be bound by their learned decision.
Amchu
Please don’t give us personal bubbeh maysah opinions! Let the Kashrus professionals handle the strawberry issues. The fact is that every agency says there are easy ways to deal with it.
Rabbi hoffman…please note when it comes to food there areason specific laws in new yorK as well as everywhere else. When someone goes into a restaurant and makes an order then decides to leave…is he obligated to pay if he cancels the order? The answer is yes…by food once you place the order you are liable regardless if you cancel before it gets to you…the reason why I bring this up because there was a famous case of an upstate peSach hotel where people wanted their money back because they didn’t the entertainment that was advertised. Nystate ruled that since the main part of pesach hotel is for the food (so the woman doesn’t have to cook) therefore they have to pay because the food was fine…..I don’t know what would be ruled here but one could argue based on that case that since the food was not good they shouldn’t have to pay….or maybe the main part here is the lodging so you would like you say….point is there are different aspects here than simple ruling from a rebbe who I am surprised would tell parents that without asking a posek….anyways my 2 cents
As I wrote, according to the Star-K, strawberries may absolutely be eaten if the following steps are taken:
Strawberries (Fresh only; Frozen, cannot be washed and are required to have
a reliable hashgocho). Dried strawberries do not need checking.
1) Pre-rinse all the strawberries in water.
2) Prepare a basin of detergent (not Joy) solution, using at least two tablespoons of
detergent per gallon of water.
3) Agitate the strawberries in the solution for 10-15 seconds.
4) Let the strawberries soak for at least one minute in the solution.
5) Rinse off each berry.
6) It is advisable to remove the tops. Otherwise, pay careful attention to rinsing
off the top area well.
7) No further checking is required.