By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5TJT.com
The following collection of Rav Elyashiv zatzal’s rulings on commonplace matters involving theft has been adapted from the Ashrei HaIsh series, a compilation of Rav Elyashiv’s writings. The questions have been reformulated to accommodate this format.
- If someone has a discount at a bookstore and his friend does not. Is it permissible to utilize the discount for the other person?
- Rav Elyashiv: It is absolutely forbidden and this constitutes out and out theft. [Editor: The extension to grocery stores and supermarkets seems obvious as well. YH]
2. On certain buses it is possible to purchase a round trip ticket which expires after an hour. Is it permissible to delay the actual purchase when you reach your stop rather than when you enter the bus so that it will expire later?
- Rav Elyashiv: It is obvious that this is forbidden.
3. The Talmud Bava Kamma 103a states that one who steals from another [and falsely denies it] must return it to him as far as Media {near Persia} and may not even return it to his son or his messenger. What about his wife?
- Rav Elyashiv: It would seem that he may not return it to his wife either. [Editor: The concern here is for liability in case it does not get to them, but if the stolen property does get back to the owner intact, it is not a problem. Also, the messenger means his general messenger but if he returned it to a messenger appointed specifically for this item then the thief is absolved from further liability. YH]
4. If someone stole an orange from a company owned orchard and there is no private individual to whom one could return the theft, what should he do?
- Rav Elyashiv: He should bring an orange to the orchard and place it in one of the containers that he is certain will arrive at the factory.
5. Is it permitted for someone to borrow money from a free loan fund to invest in bonds or stocks?
- Rav Elyashiv: It depends upon the bylaws of the Free Loan Fund
6. At times people may be tempted to lie about the age of children, or to sneak in, when entering a zoo and the like. What is the Halacha?
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- Rav Elyashiv zt”l: It is forbidden to steal from them. One must pay the correct entrance fee in all cases. [Editor: The extension to amusement parks seems obvious as well. YH]
7. A Free Loan Fund, or a medical equipment loaning organization that takes collateral (or a deposit)- is it permissible for the Free Loan Fund to make use of the item or the deposit?
- Rav Elyashiv: Absolutely not. They may keep the deposit in the bank, but they may not make use of the money.
8. If someone had a [train or] bus ticket that got ruined is it permitted to ride the next time without paying and deduct the ride from the ticket that one had that got lost or ruined?
- Rav Elyashiv: Absolutely not. The transportation company makes their pricing based on the fact that they assume people will lose or ruin their tickets. If your ticket is lost or stolen, you have lost your rights.
9. Someone who repairs computers must at time erase the entire drive and reload the programs one by one. What happens when the customer did not legally purchase these programs. Is it permissible to restore what the customer had originally?
- Rav Elyashiv: It is absolutely forbidden and even if he will lose his customers he must search for a new manner in which to make a living.
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22 Responses
Q: my wife shops at a grocery that gives ten percent off to full time kollel men. Many times it happens that a neighbor who doesn’t have ten percent off calls my wife and asks her if she is going to the grocery to do her a favor and buy milk or eggs and the like and she will pay her back. When my wife pays including the neighbors stuff she swipes the card and the ten percent off goes automatic. Is there a problem that the neighbors stuff are also being paid with the ten percent off or maybe the grocery gives the ten percent off knowing that such things happen and is mochel the little bit that i bought for the neighbor but of course i cant buy her whole shopping list just the emergency orange juice or cream cheese in the morning that are normal situations?
Q: my wife shops at a grocery that gives ten percent off to full time kollel men. Many times it happens that a neighbor who doesn’t have ten percent off calls my wife and asks her if she is going to the grocery to do her a favor and buy milk or eggs and the like and she will pay her back. When my wife pays including the neighbors stuff she swipes the card and the ten percent off goes automatic. Is there a problem that the neighbors stuff are also being paid with the ten percent off or maybe the grocery gives the ten percent off knowing that such things happen and is mochel the little bit that i bought for the neighbor but of course i cant buy her whole shopping list just the emergency orange juice or cream cheese in the morning that are normal situations? In the articles question it sounds like he is buying things the owner wouldnt forgive because the other man can buy it himself and he is trying to get away with it cheaper with his friends discount
A relevant note, since it makes a halachic difference, is that in questions number one, two and several others RYSE zt’l seems to be responding to a question regarding a zoo/park/bus/Free Loan Fund/bookstore/etc. owned by yehudim.
These are important issues. What I would like to see addressed next is stealing from the government. A few examples that come to mind are:
1. Is it permissible to have a Jewish marriage without registering it with the civil authorities so that the wife can get welfare as a single mother?
2. Can we accept money for services or goods without registering the transaction in the business log that is used for tax purposes?
3. May a Rabbi expand the number of students in his school’s registration list to more than the actual number so that the school is able to receive increased government aid?
gezel akum assur, taus akum muttar. The govt shaila is complicated by that some monies are already allocated to certain programs and not coming from the general budget, among other factors. So beware being medama milsa lmilsa…
Rabbi Yair Hoffman
would you kindly , please give us the sources . thanks
#2 why is that relevant at all? gnava is gnava no matter who the victim.
Questions dealing with city, state & federal issues need answers too.
1. Can I park at a broken meter?
2. I am paying for my prescription drug yet am traveling overseas, can the dr give me a double prescription now ( which is questionable) so I will have enough medicine when I am out of the country?
3. Is there a difference between obeying laws in America versus laws in Israrl?
4. Can I use someone else triple A card for emergency road service if I pay the service station for their help? (In this way I can get the road service quickly)
I don’t get #2.if the bus allows payment at the end there should be no problem though I’ve never seen such a bus. if they don’t then there’s nothing to discuss because you couldn’t get on in the first place.
Brooklynmom- to answer a few of your kashas.
1)NYC law used to be you could park for an hour, now with mini meters you need a valid ticket.
2)absolutely, as the dr didn’t do anything wrong other then make your life easier, so you don’t have to find a pharmacy while away.
3) yes, in Israel you drive in kilometer in America you drive in miles per hour. Also Israel has no legislation or bill of rights that would give you the freedoms you so dearly uphold here in America.
4)obviously you’ve never used AAA as the member should be present at the time of service, even if they are a passenger. AAA also offeres the service to almost everybody on a trial basis so just do the right thing and call with your name.
Maran– a better question to ask is if your wife has to collect the 10% difference from your neighbor and then return it to the store, or do you want to klehr the shaila that since your wife and neighbor are shutfin neither is individually responsible??
Seriously? the next time this happens and your rebetzin goes into the store let her ask the manager ” i am buying stuff for me and my friend i have the card with the discount, she does not– is it OK with you if i buy the stuff??” see what he says and then you have no shaila at all
welcome to the corrupt world of todays generation.
a speech I heard from a special speaker at a kollel
The Rav started speaking with with a question. How could it be in the town of Brooklyn, monsey or Lakewood etc… there are so many yeshiva people that do this corrupt action of putting their house under someone else’s name etc… so they can get all the programs HUD, foodstamps, WIC etc..? the speaker then heard what they had to say. One person said Rabbi (anonymous) SHLITA says if a person really needs the money for tuition or food he can do it. (when verified by his son, he said its false its impossible his father would ever say it cause his father pays taxes every year) A different person said Rabbi anonymous SHLITA said you can do it because the BANK really owns it for 30 years etc… the rav then told everyone listening you see that is all corruption AKA where a person fools HIMSELF & says its not stealing. Why is it stealing? i pay other taxes to the town etc… Its not so bad when a person fools another person into sinning C”V or gets fooled into sinning C”V, BUT when a person FOOLS HIMSELF into sinning that’s very bad. he then continued speaking & asked a different question on the same topic. Is a person allowed to borrow a travel businessman’s American airlines card to save money on his flight or is that Corruption? am i allowed to borrow your COSTCO card & use it to save money for myself? the simple answer is NO a costco membership card includes a person himself, his wife & children anyone else that uses it is stealing from the Company. (Maybe i should buy 10 costco memberships & rent them out $2.00 a card per day C”V everyone would come use it Rachmana L’tzlan. BUT THATS PURE CORRUPTION & PURE STEALING ETC..)
the torah says “v’asisa hayashar v’hatov” a person should do the right thing & NOT what HE WANTS to do. sadly thats not the case in todays generation & is bringing many tragedies to klal yisroel R”L
may everyone become %100 honest so all sadness can end soon
what happens today R”L when a person asks his rav if he is allowed to do something, & the rav tells him no. He goes to another rav until he gets a heter to do it, & that ladies & gentlemen is PURE CORRUPTION.
SADLY THIS HAPPENS VERY OFTEN TODAY.
may we all do teshuva soon & return to hashem with honesty
any questions please reply.
any misunderstandings consult with YOUR rav & ask him yourself but don’t bring yourself to sin C”V by fooling yourself into corruption
If you’re not going to accept peoples honest opinions/comments then why bother to even have a comment section? This is not communist Russia. If you publish articles/stories and you want to have an honest dialogue, so leave your viewers comments untouched. You cant keep sanitizing your viewers comments to fit your agenda. If you feel the particular article is too “controversial” so don’t publish it. If you want to be a professional website, you cant have it both ways.
Masiach,
A sad comment on today’s so called orthodox world. I have many non orthodox friends and family that would never consider these schemes.
Part of the problem is lack of an honest trade or marketable profession, the rest is greed, thinking we are better than the gentiles, or the ease of this kind of shady dealings
to Cowdoc
go out & learn a trade. Not all trades require college. not all trades are expensive to learn. Ever heard of PCS? they give courses for very cheap & affordable. This is just a stupid excuse to remove yourself from the need to work & support YOUR family. Start small in a store cash register & while there making money go take a real estate or accountant course… its called LAZINESS & SNOOZING from day to day until it becomes years & by then your deep in debt C”V
May we all wake up & face reality & become responsible people (isn’t this what you signed on your Kesuba on the day of your wedding? didn’t you promise to support your wife & take care of your family? nobody wants to C”V get divorced BUT if you don’t keep to what you PROMISED HASHEM, then Hashem might just do that C”V & say its for the good until you become RESPONSIBLE)
Mashiach,
We are both saying the same thing. The problem is that many people want to do this but family or social pressures (including religious leaders) will do all in their power to prevent education, including becoming a master plumber or bricklayer because it doesn’t conform to the rest of the community. In addition all of these types of thievery become ingrained in society an represent the easy way.
> “putting their house under someone else’s name”
But if the house is in someone else’s name, doesn’t that mean someone else really, really, really owns the house? So just where is “this corrupt action”?
We have in recent generations given much well deserved and important attention to important issues like shmiras halashon and tznias and achdus but honesty in all of our ways is one area so neglected and because money issues are involved, the temptations are great. please spread the message- let’s add this to our focus and walk in straight ways. כל הכבוד – i think there should be a regular column on the subject מדבר שקר תרחק
not only is honesty a cleansing force in ourselves which brings us benefits, but as a people, we project an image to the other nations, and have a positive influence spiritually……
“limnos yameinu”
I too had this kashyeh. What’s wrong with waiting if it’s allowed?
Maran, your question is addressed above in question 1 above, so it seems it is forbidden. I would recommend your wife pay for her own purchases first and then buy the items for the neighbor separately without using the Kollel discount, paying cash if necessary to avoid having the Kollel discount being automatically applied with the card.
To all viewers: please be aware there are some comments here that are purely Lashon Hara and Hotzaas Shem Ra. And and all the name of caring about honesty. You are now pre warned. Have a great night.
Georgeg
The person who did the favor for his relative or friend and allowed him to use his name to put the house under his name knows that in truth its really owned by the person who asked him for his favor that’s living in the house 24-7 so he knows he doesn’t own the house and what you think he’s gonna try and steal it from him since its under his name? The buyer only asked him for his favor cause he was a close friend or family member he can trust to put it on his name but that’s pure dishonest and CORRUPTION