In an effort to assist agunos, MK (Yesh Atid) Dov Lipman is presenting a bill that was formulated in consultation and cooperation with Chief Rabbi David Lau. The bill seeks to get tough with recalcitrant husbands, and this includes imprisoning the husbands in a regular prison, not the Torah Wing, denying them mehadrin food, and prohibiting them from making telephone calls other than to their attorney or rabbinical pleader. Lipman already signed 14 MKs to the bill including a number of MKs from Bayit Yehudi.
Lipman feels that by placing husbands in a regular prison and not the Torah Wing, and denying them mehadrin meals, many will break and agree to give a get. At present he feels conditions are simply too comfortable to break them.
(YWN – Israel Desk, Jerusalem)
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22 Responses
What about non forum husband who refuse their wives a get?
Are they going to put them INTO the torani wing and force them to eat mehadrin and only give them access to their lawyer and a rabbi?
Why don’t we just beat them like chazal said we should… it would work with me… it should work for everybody
Excellent news!
The picture is a bit deceiving, the picture is Rabbi Lau, not MK Lipman
Do not trust the snanke Mr. Lipman when he claims Rabbi Lau supports this bill.
Why would anyone be denied mehadrin food. Even killers get it. How does denying mehadrin food punish? Eating mehadrin for Hashem’s benefit not for the prisoner’s benefit. And the benefit is available to murderers and rapists.
What is a torah wing? Is that for the supposedly “frum” Jews that aren’t frum?
As my rav said, if you’re in prison for something, don’t ask for kosher food. First, it’s a chillul Hashem, as non-Jews will think this is how Torah Jews behave. Second, you’ve done something so bad to get yourself into prison. Eating kosher isn’t going to help you regain your chalek in Olam Haba. I agree with #1, we should follow our sages.
Why not also deny them a kippa and tzitzis? kippa and tzitzis (if he’s not wearing 4 cornered garment) aren’t even halachicly required. Take away their seforim too.
Blazes, just don’t give them Tefilin or kosher food altogether.
I do not understand how this is going to impact Lipman’s constituency? They care not about the Torah, let alone the Torah wing or mehadrin kashrus.
He should first focus on the problems of his constituency instead of trying to impart his skewed views on everyone else.
Zalman: it’s not to punish; it’s to coerce. Even though the same shulchan oruch that says you have to eat glatt kosher also says you have to listen to beis din when they tell you to divorce your wife, for some reason, the guy only pays attention to parts of shulchan oruch. So we will make him feel miserable and he will divorce his wife to avoid it. In any case, eating mehadrin is not for Hashem’s benefit, as you put it, anyway. It’s something he requires us to do but he doesn’t “need” it, obviously.
It would be easier to allow the wife to spend all his assets (since after all he is responsible for her upkeep until he gives her a “get”). Allow her to run up debts for he will be solely liable. Where the refusal to give a “get” is based on monetary motivations, this would be the most effective way to get things done. The “get” is technically a “you are fired – I’m not supporting you any more” document, and until the man gives it, he’s responsbile for supporting her (as per the kesubah).
Where the issues are non-financial, such as he wants her back, or he wants more access to children, this should not be something litigated. In the former situation it probably is too early to give a “get” since at least one party wants reconciliation (most usually give up after a short time). If they are fighting about the children, the need is for counseling, not blackmail and lawyering. But in all fairness, the cases that cause outrage usually have a money issue, and the threat of being bankrupt for the rest of his life and of all his earnings and property going to the woman he hates, should be enough to give a “get”.
Any man who refuses an order of a beit din isn’t frum, and does not deserve to be treated as such.
@#6: You said, “As my rav said, if you’re in prison for something, don’t ask for kosher food. First, it’s a chillul Hashem, as non-Jews will think this is how Torah Jews behave. Second, you’ve done something so bad to get yourself into prison. Eating kosher isn’t going to help you regain your chalek in Olam Haba”.
I doubt your Rav or any Rav said that. First of all, there are people in prison who were wrongly convicted. Second, there is such as thing as teshuvah. Third, transgressing one mitzva doesn’t absolve a person from other mitzvos, he is just as obligated in them as anyone else.
All the above with the 1 & most important proviso that the husband/father is getting visitation with his children.
As long as his visitation is being denied, by definition:- The children are the Agunim, and the husband does not belong in any jail.
Additionally, more often than not the wife is not halachicly entitled to a Get and the husband not giving her one is entirely within halacha and his wife is not an ‘aguna’ unless a beis din orders him to give one. In the absence of that he is in the right.
akuperma is mostly wrong as halachicly a beis din has no power under halacha to allow her to spend his money or to give her his money. And if they did any future Get he gave her would be me’usa (invalid) as halachicly financial pressuring a husband to give a Get invalidates it.
#4 Go and learn som Yesodei Hados. Your eating mehadrin is not for “hashem’s benefit”. It is primarily for the hashgoca agency’s benefit, and maybe if you had a clue, for your own benefit.
Toras Moshe: I hope that your daughters and other female relatives never experience the agony of not being given a get. Your total disregard of the pain of many women dsiqualifies you from the “bnai rachmonim’ that jews are.
What is his plan to help agunim – men whose wives won’t accept a get w/o their ridiculous demands met? According to a JPost article, the % of agunim and agunot are almost equal…
Elli Willner – actually my rav is considered one of the leading halachic authorities in the US and Israel. He can also be brutally honest. I work in the legal system and can tell you first hand, VERY few people in prison are wrongly convicted, especially frum Jews who have the financial resources to get the best counsel. Sure, people can do teshuva. Hopefully they’ll do sufficient teshuva to get out of prison and merit eating kosher food again.
Charliehall – spot on, as usual.
14. I don’t get where you’re coming from Why wouldn’t the wife be halachically entitled to a get?
to # 1 The non Frum will be forced into the Torah wing.
I don’t see why this isn’t coercion shelo cedin where any Get forced this way would be invalid and if the wife remarried the children would be mamzerim.
Direct coercion to force a Get which is not one of the few cases where it is allowed causes the Get to be posul.
Rash back you have no idea whatcu are saying ,